I have been learning to tele for a while and I noticed that my skis were parallel for too long during the lead change (so at the point where both of my skis are facing downhill). In theory I'm aware that I should be pushing the downhill ski forward while pushing the uphill ski back (though I understand pushing the ski forward is the key bit) and that I should have the up and down motion (so during the point where both of my skis are facing downhill I'm at my most "up" point). In practice, however, I can't do it. It's worse when I'm turning left and I think I can just do it when I'm turning right.
I can definitely not do short turns with telemark yet either.
Are there any techniques or tips on this? By the way is what I'm doing what people call "fake-a-mark"?
How should the weight distribution be? A lot of people on the internet is saying 50/50 but I have had two different ESF instructors who say the pressure should be in the downhill ski just like alpine skiing.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I'm not an expert on telemark and am still learning so I'm not of great use in giving you advice.
I think you're almost there given you can do it turning right. It's only a matter of time you'll be able to do that in turning left. I'm always in awe in all those telemarkers gracing down the hill whereas I look like a knob when I do it. I keep telling myself "One day!".
Persevere!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@double360, hi, it is tricky. practice. Allen and Mikes book is fantastic. Yes you are doing a sneaky alpine turn. Be dynamic and keep your fet in moion- this is actualy less tiring than being static at times. Easier said than done though.
Why not come to the GB telemark championships next year. Pralognan la Vanoise. Excellent instruction for all levels of telemark. From no previous tele experience to member of GB team.
@double360, You could try doing slow lead changes going directly down the fall line on the flatest slope you can find. tough to do at first but really helps get the feel of the scissor motion you are looking for..
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
You could try doing slow lead changes
... & whilst doing this, as an exercise stand tall so at the highest point you've slid your feet together and your legs are straight-ish - don't hang around in this position but continue to sink and slide your feet into the lead-change
I have been learning to tele for a while and I noticed that my skis were parallel for too long during the lead change
Classic 'alpine pause' : very common in those who learned to alpine ski first.
Suffered from same problem myself!
Basically your natural balance point is an alpine stance.
So muscle memory keeps you going back to that position at fall line.
double360 wrote:
Are there any techniques or tips on this?
Tele J-turns are a good drill to get comfortable with earlier lead change.
Start going straight down hill in tele-stance then turn right / left back up the hill until you stop.
double360 wrote:
How should the weight distribution be? A lot of people on the internet is saying 50/50
Yip - need more weight on inner ski (compared to alpine) to control pressure / stop if flapping.
It will never actually be 50:50 - but might feel like it. Think of your inside ski as like a rudder.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@geoffers, good video, i should have added that lead changes in traverse are useful as well.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Another great exercise is the mono-mark where you don't actually do a lead change, so in one turn you ski alpine stance & the other you ski tele...this gives you a great feeling for how your back ski is weighted & working for you in the tele-turn
So start in an alpine turn (say turning left) so you're pressuring the inside (big toe) edge of your right (outside ski - which in an alpine turn is slightly to the rear)
Up unweight and steer your skis into the right turn but don't lead change, sink into the tele so you now feel the pressure on the outside (little toe) edge of the right (inside) ski which is the rear ski in the tele-turn
Link several of these alpine-tele-alpine-tele and you'll really get the feel of the 50/50 weight and the use of the edges of the back ski
Then do the same again, but in the other direction... something like this
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I find drills and things like that and in particular wordy explanations of doing physical things almost impossible to follow. Which is really odd because my job is all about wordy explanations.
Find teleposse and tele with people better than you, tele faster, move those feet. Keep them moving. Go Go Go Go Go etc. (I don't like the video, wordy, skiddy, boring- sorry).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
double360 wrote:
I have been learning to tele for a while and I noticed that my skis were parallel for too long during the lead change (so at the point where both of my skis are facing downhill). In theory I'm aware that I should be pushing the downhill ski forward while pushing the uphill ski back (though I understand pushing the ski forward is the key bit) and that I should have the up and down motion (so during the point where both of my skis are facing downhill I'm at my most "up" point). In practice, however, I can't do it. It's worse when I'm turning left and I think I can just do it when I'm turning right.
Are there any techniques or tips on this?
There are some good tips above, but a lot of your current challenge (as people have said above) is probably just getting stuck in the parallel part of the turn due to you muscle memory. Don't worry - it will come with time. Doing some 'tele shuffles' where you try to smoothly rise and fall changing lead without turning is a good exercise, as are monomarks etc.. as has been suggested above. There are some positives here: many telemarkers change lead too early (before the fall line) linking the lead change with the turn. If you can decouple the lead change from the 'turn' such that you are feet together in the fall line then that is good.
The Alan and Mikes book is fun, but some of the tips are a bit 'out of date' IMHO and hark back to an era of floppy boots and straight skis. There is an emphasis of the turn coming from the lead change and a difference in angle between the skis - this will have you skidding your turns and not weighting the rear ski.... If you are still skiing with leather boots and 3 pin bindings then this may be appropriate, but shaped skis and plastic boots have changed tele. To carve and drive a tele turn think of the tele shuffle is a rise and fall with the back shin sinking down into the cuff rather than it being a forward and back motion. In this way you will keep your stance tighter, weight the back ski better, and engage your glutes rather than than just burning out your quads which makes things easier.
double360 wrote:
By the way is what I'm doing what people call "fake-a-mark"?
I think this probably means different things to different people but I have always been told that this refers to when you are only weighting the front (outside) ski and the rear ski is dragging along behind you like a rudder.
double360 wrote:
How should the weight distribution be? A lot of people on the internet is saying 50/50 but I have had two different ESF instructors who say the pressure should be in the downhill ski just like alpine skiing.
There are definitely different views on exactly what the correct weight distribution should be for tele, but 50:50 is a good starting point. I have never heard anyone suggest that your weight should be mostly on the downhill ski and this would be 'fake-a-mark' in my world. There are many ways to tele but advising most of the weight on the downill ski strikes me as bad advice - I've sort of covered this above, but the practical problem with this is that if you don't commit weight to the rear ski then you will not be able to flex it and will be skidding it around with no real control.
Bottom line for me is to sink into the cuff, don't think about forward and back.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
"The Alan and Mikes book is fun, but some of the tips are a bit 'out of date' IMHO and hark back to an era of floppy boots and straight skis. There is an emphasis of the turn coming from the lead change and a difference in angle between the skis - this will have you skidding your turns and not weighting the rear ski.... "
Couldn't agree more, I reread it when I was wanting to get back into telemarking and loads of tips just felt plain wrong...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@skimottaret, @BenA, Allen and Mikes has a second edition- updated etc. But I'd say it is still good and gets you stable. Learning to ski the hard way is good.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I agree with BenA that you should try sinking into the cuff of the rear boot, or another way of thinking of this is to push the rear knee down. This should help both with weighting to rear ski, and with overall up down motion, and will necessarily also force the front-back transition
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
try initiating the turn by pushing the rear ski forwards while keeping the hips roughly the same altitude above the snow.there will be a gradual increase of weight and angulation on this ski as it becomes the leading ski. this also helps you think about the amount of weight on the rear ski (which varies depending on snow conditions). The same time turn the shoulders down the hill rather than standing up as on alpine, you dont really need to weight and unweight as the change in angulation comes as much from the changing posture and not the little rabbity jump point you see in alpine.Dont be afraid to go low that can be much of the fun.. it worked for me
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@double360, If folk say you are "Fake-a-marking", then they mean you are not making a proper tele stance. For it to be a tele, you need the following; Knees separated vertically and horizontally (i.e. back knee lower and further back than the front), and back thigh vertical. Your feet should be separated too. The tele stance should feel balanced --- that's what it's there for! In order to practise this, start your turns using an alpine/parallel turn, and then go into a tele after the fall line. Get comfortable and balanced in the tele and then try getting into a tele earlier in the turn.
On easy slopes mono-marking/snurfing (i.e. turns in a tele stance without chainging leads) will help you find the back ski.
@skimottaret, Yup -- Allen and Mike have too much applying to leather boots!
I think about 50/50 weight distribution on skis --- actually think more about the back ski.
Are you in the Sarf --- if you are near enough to Hemel (and it stays open) we could meet there and have a play together.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Thank you all. The monomarking definitely helps.
Does the lead change happen before you initiate a turn or while in the middle of the turn (i.e. when both skis are facing downhill)?
This video seems to show that the lead change happen before/when you initiate a turn? Looks like they are still traversing when they complete the lead change
Does the lead change happen before you initiate a turn or while in the middle of the turn (i.e. when both skis are facing downhill)?
For me the turn is initiated with the pole plant, and the lead change happens throughout the turn, with the skis actually being together as they're approaching the fall line (half way through the turn) & the lead change completes at or just after crossing the fall line
Here's some vid of me slowed right down, so you can see what I mean
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@double360,
Quote:
Does the lead change happen before you initiate a turn or while in the middle of the turn (i.e. when both skis are facing downhill)?
You can do the lead change more or less when you want. I like to do it later in the turn, i.e. start the turn with the old lead, so pole plant/edge change and then lead change. Doing a lead change right at the start of the turn -- especially for alpine skiers --- can lead to overturning the new lead (outside) ski, and not being in a balanced tele position afterward, usually because you've forgotten the back ski.
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