 Poster: A snowHead
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So our US contributor has just sent in a feature following on from those images of the massive lift queues at Vail and how various resorts are trying to distance themselves from the effects and bad PR generated by increased numbers which some are saying is the result of the takeup of the Epic and Icon passes.
And in all this hubris being generated by numerous resorts, the phrase Uphilling jumped off the page at me, and I thought what the feck is that?
So these are Aspen Snowmass Uphilling Policies:
Uphillers must remain visible at all times.
Uphillers must stay on the side of the trail and single file.
Uphillers must be aware of downhill traffic and avoid blind spots.
Uphillers must be aware that the slopes are in use 24 hours a day, and to be on guard for snowmobiles, snowcats and other vehicular traffic operated by Aspen/Snowmass.
Uphillers must stay away from all snowmaking equipment and may not cross snowmaking lines at any time.
All uphillers must have a valid lift ticket or pass to ride up any lifts.
Uphill traffic may be restricted due to pre-season preparation, avalanche mitigation efforts or ski area construction and maintenance activities.
As with downhill traffic, uphill traffic must obey all on-mountain signage, including closed runs and ropelines.
So yes, Uphilling is what most of us know as In Resort Ski Touring 
But interesting to see that you still have to have a valid lift ticket!!!
Apart from the above there's talk of a whole new resort, Bluebird Back Country without lifts - just for Back Country
Anyway more here https://www.stylealtitude.com/ski-resorts-future-2020.html
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Weathercam, I interpreted your highlighted phrase to mean that you needed a ticket to use the lifts, even if an uphiller. Seems perfectly reasonable to me?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Arctic Roll, that's what it says to me ...
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Ski Fitness in Europe, or even Speed Touring, depending on which marketing droid is trying to sell you some new kit you don't need that will end up gathering dust in the garage.
and yeah, resorts without ski lifts, already have them in Yurope: Drouzin le Mont, Puigmal etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@davidof, also a number of stations have set out marked skinning tracks, e.g. Chamonix, Monterosa, (Avoriaz I think). It's handy and safer than going up side piste (which really annoys me anyway!).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Weathercam, The list you posted seems a bit restrictive.
I always presumed that tourers got extra bonus points for zig-zagging up a race piste while it was in use.
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Old hat. I had lessons at an uphilling only resort in the Ayrshire coalfield years ago. The only lift had broken down long since.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Weathercam, related but from a different angle. Recently a UK fridge won it's case against the revenue on the basis that you don't have to have a lift ticket to skin up / ski down its facilities. Tax position seems to be it would have to pay tax if it charged an "entrance" fee, but not if it charged for using the lift system. They stated their position as emphatically in the free to acces bracket to reclaim tax already extracted.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Weathercam, yeah, I'd seen that Decathlon list.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| It's handy and safer than going up side piste (which really annoys me anyway!). |
we had a plague of ski tourers skinning up before Christmas when the conditions were good and you could tour anywhere. They've come back recently due to poor snow conditions (that I can understand) but seem to avoid the special tracks available at the local resorts (Allevard, les 7 laux, Chamrousse). I have trouble understanding why. At the 3 resorts I've mentioned it is possible to avoid the pistes more or less even not using the special trails.
The ski tourers then go bawling to mama when they have close calls with alpine skiers or get sprayed with snow.
I blame the marketing people promoting all this ski fitness stuff and telling everyone they are going to die if they go off piste, still at least it means the ski touring trails are quieter these days now all the poseur hypster free rando guys have cleared off to tour in ski resorts. Every cloud and all that.
BTW what is that guy in blue doing in the photo, some little stomp dance rather than gliding his skis along the snow, probably best for him he's on a nice ski piste.
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You know it makes sense.
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@davidof, I think it's just the angle of the picture. But they do all look as though they are doing classic XC. Lots of noses over tips.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
All uphillers must have a valid lift ticket or pass to ride up any lifts.
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That statement confuse the heck out of me...
What are "uphillers"? People who walk UP the hill, right?
Why would they be "riding up any lift" anyway?
And if they do "ride up any lift", they're no longer "uphillers", are they?
Or, if I claim to be an "uphiller", would I be treated differently on the lift line??? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @davidof, I think it's just the angle of the picture. But they do all look as though they are doing classic XC. Lots of noses over tips. |
I thought the same thing
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
All uphillers must have a valid lift ticket or pass to ride up any lifts.
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That statement confuse the heck out of me...
What are "uphillers"? People who walk UP the hill, right?
Why would they be "riding up any lift" anyway?
And if they do "ride up any lift", they're no longer "uphillers", are they?
Or, if I claim to be an "uphiller", would I be treated differently on the lift line??? |
Uphillers is easier to write than ski-tourers & snow shoers etc.
Sometimes some lifts that are usually further up the hill don't have a security system. i.e. you could use them without having a lift pass but shouldn't. Normally only skiers/boarders with a lift card would get far enough up the hill to use these lifts. The statement makes it clear only people who bought a lift pass should be using these lifts. Stops skitourers doing a tour and then riding 'free' lifts the rest of the day.
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| DB wrote: |
Uphillers is easier to write than ski-tourers & snow shoers etc.
Sometimes some lifts that are usually further up the hill don't have a security system. i.e. you could use them without having a lift pass but shouldn't. Normally only skiers/boarders with a lift card would get far enough up the hill to use these lifts. The statement makes it clear only people who bought a lift pass should be using these lifts. Stops skitourers doing a tour and then riding 'free' lifts the rest of the day. |
You maybe right.
I doubt snow shoers would bother taking a lift. They're not the kind that would want to yo-yoing up and down the mountain multiple times like skiers.
Ski-tourers, I can see the point. But it'll be difficult to enforce though. They have skis on their feet and look just like any other skiers who rode the lift from the bottom up.
So, without enforcing lift access on all upper mountain lifts, there's no way to stop the ski-tourers from "stealing" lift rides.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
it'll be difficult to enforce though. They have skis on their feet and look just like any other skiers who rode the lift from the bottom up
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Nah, s'easy. Just wait for them to tell you. No Tourer can resist giving it the Charlie Big Potatoes at any and every opportunity. 
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@abc, pretty much every European station has RFID gates at every lift. so very easy to enforce.
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@abc,
Different boots, bindings and clobber gives us away.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @abc, pretty much every European station has RFID gates at every lift. so very easy to enforce. |
Many of the older small resorts don‘t have RFID on every lift. Even found a lift in St Anton that doesn‘t have any checks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
@abc,
Different boots, bindings and clobber gives us away. |
@DB, more and more people are using touring boots for regular lift-served skiing. Same like telemark skiers yo-yoing on the lift-served runs.
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There was a huge thread about this on tgr forums a while ago.
I have some sympathy for these people touring inside resorts. Many do not have partners and/or knowledge to tour in the backcountry. Others have no desire to ski powder and it's all about the fitness/being in the mountains with an easy ski down. So I can see why they do it.
On the other hand it can create some dangerous situations people coming up pistes as people are trying to ski down. I also don't see why resorts should essentially give away their product for free (it takes time/money to groom slopes).
Perhaps the solution is to put in a groomed "uphill track" away from downhill skiers and charge a small amount for those wanting to use it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Haven't fully read the thread as in a rush.....saw a few articles on the US uphill skiing phenomenon late last season......anyways I'm in the US now and recently was riding Aspen, spotted a few uphillers at buttermilk mountain. The resort sets times for uphill skiing and many people seem to do it in resort with their dogs before 7am and after 430pm. During lift hours I think you need a pass and can't take your dog up. Big crowds also go to abandoned ski resorts like berthoulds pass. Seen another resort (can't remember which one) allowing it but they had signs saying you need to be at the summit for sunrise and ski down i.e.. not skin up when the punters are there.
......to be fair most mountain passes here I've seen people parked up in the side of the road and skinning up nearby routes.....looks like the resorts are trying to cash in on this too.....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@DB, I should have said many and limited my statement to France and Italy...
@LittleBullet, given the skin tracks I know don’t need lift passes not sure how anyone’s cashing in?
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
@abc,
Different boots, bindings and clobber gives us away. |
@DB, more and more people are using touring boots for regular lift-served skiing. Same like telemark skiers yo-yoing on the lift-served runs. |
Yes I know, sometimes I'll go alpine skiing on touring gear and the lifties have a beady eye on me, making sure I have a lift pass.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
@DB, I should have said many and limited my statement to France and Italy...
@LittleBullet, given the skin tracks I know don’t need lift passes not sure how anyone’s cashing in? |
Maybe it's only applicable to here but Vienna's population is around 2 million. There are a few small local resorts within 90 mins drive.
These tend to be visited mainly at the weekend and they struggle financially to keep going each year. Many lifts don't have RFID as they don't have the finances to upgrade. With the the skitouring boom tourers have started using their car parks and touring up by the side of the piste or through the terrain near the ski resorts (esp. in times of marginal snow) then using the pistes to get down.
Some resorts have started charging for parking or even selling a ski touring pass that permits tourers to use the prepared touring tracks.
Some offer a skitouring pass that allows the tourers to use the lifts for a few hours so they can tour in the morning and use the lifts later in the day.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| boarder2020 wrote: |
| ... Perhaps the solution is to put in a groomed "uphill track" away from downhill skiers and charge a small amount for those wanting to use it. |
For example: "Uphill travel within the Whistler Blackcomb ski area boundary is only permitted on designated routes, marked with signage. Please respect all on-mountain signage."
There's a lot of politics and history in this sort of thing, and ongoing political issues between the various groups. I guess the politics are likely more ingrained and complex in Europe because the land's been used more frequently, for broader purposes, and for longer. I suppose if it becomes more of a problem in Europe then they'll likely need to adopt similar systems for safety reasons.
Interestingly (or not) in BC where government (public) land is used, they can't generally restrict access simply because they are operating a tenure (eg heli or cat) on it. So for example if you want to go and boot-pack the terrain of a heli operator, they generally can't prevent that. There's generally co-operation between the various groups (sledders, tourers) to make things reasonably fair.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @abc, pretty much every European station has RFID gates at every lift. so very easy to enforce. |
Funilly enough, in Les Contamines there were a couple of lifts without RFID gates (ones that you "had" to access by another lift). We noticed that they have put RFID gates in this season. Pretty sure it's because some people were skinning in and lapping the non-RFID lifts.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@jedster, haha probably! The only one I can think of in Cham is the Floria drag and by the time I'd skinned to there I'd be too knackered to ski it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@DB, that's not really "cashing in" is it? I think that's quite reasonable behaviour. You use my car park and my piste infrastructure, it's reasonable that you pay.
I suspect the motivations in Chamonix and Monterosa (and obviously not confined to those per the lists above) included much increased numbers skinning up the pistes, which may have been causing issues (safety, grooming, etc.) - so easier to run in a few tracks at almost no cost and segregate the up from the down.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, I don't know how the resorts enforce it as I haven't tried. I did notice the little resort in the town of Jackson (name escapes be but it's not Jackson hole) had a sign saying you need to pay something like $25 to use the skin tracks within their boundary area. I assume someone checks before you set off.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @DB, that's not really "cashing in" is it? I think that's quite reasonable behaviour. You use my car park and my piste infrastructure, it's reasonable that you pay. |
Totally agree with you and don't mind paying for such services but suspect that's what some other people mean when they say the ski resorts are "cashing in" on ski tourers. I'd rather we have to pay a little than get shut out.
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If uphillers stick completely to unprepared slopes I have no issue with them not needing any sort of pass. But many (perhaps most) use prepared pistes, both up and down, and other facilities. There is a cost to provide that, which they should contribute to. In most cases something equivalent to a pedestrian pass would cover it.
People who argue that uphillers shouldn't pay at all, because a ski pass is for uplift only, would presumably be happy with a resort providing lifts only? No pistes, signposts, avi control or other facilities? Possibly no restaurants either. 
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @jedster, haha probably! The only one I can think of in Cham is the Floria drag and by the time I'd skinned to there I'd be too knackered to ski it. |
Many, perhaps even most, of the mid mountain lifts in Tignes don't have RFID. Aguille Rouge, Marais, Grand Huit, Aguille Percee, Merles, Gratalu, Col de Ves, Col Du Palet etc, etc. Once you're up Chaudannes, Palafour or Tischot that's it.
The mid mountain ones that do have RFID are at the boundaries between the various local area lift pass options.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
People who argue that uphillers shouldn't pay at all, because a ski pass is for uplift only, would presumably be happy with a resort providing lifts only? No pistes, signposts, avi control or other facilities? Possibly no restaurants either. |
Sounds like paradise, where do I sign up?
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| davidof wrote: |
| ecureuil wrote: |
People who argue that uphillers shouldn't pay at all, because a ski pass is for uplift only, would presumably be happy with a resort providing lifts only? No pistes, signposts, avi control or other facilities? Possibly no restaurants either. |
Sounds like paradise, where do I sign up? |
Well, there's all the mountains without resorts, just go there!
I think this totally sums up the argument. The reasons uphillers are using pistes to go up are (in descending priority) : 1) avi control, 2) piste preparation, 3) snowmaking (in early/poor season), 4) parking/restaurants/signpost etc.
It's right they should pay for it. Or go where no resorts are located.
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FAQ
though I suspect it means that if you're just doing Uphill and not using the lifts you still need a ticket which indeed was the case in Steamboat
