 Poster: A snowHead
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A few seasons ago my better half and I treated ourselves to rather natty SL skis, as we were spending quite a few weekends in Champoluc and I felt that livening up the beautifully groomed pistes and windblown off piste was justifiable.
Being of the FIS allowed lengths, the local proprietor had the approved 165 and 155 lengths, which we duly acquired. (Nordica Dobermann SL-R, R&D marked).
The mutt’s nuts I must say. Loved them. Wore them out. Still miss them, especially on that sort of day, nudge, nudge, 
I have alluded, more than once, to their deep powder capabilities, which I stand by.
Also, that (ed. Get on with it, man! tl:dr) I “felt” that I could “over-power” my wife’s skis. I felt that I could “break” their grip (a little bit) in a way that I couldn’t do mine.
Anyone still interested?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't have enough experience to give a real world comment but I think Lindsey Vonn competed at about 72kg - if a skier like her wasn't overpowering 155 FIS SLs, should you have been able to?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@jedster, I totally take your point.
They just felt a bit short. It may easily have been down to my poor technique. I much preferred my 165s. Was some time ago.
You sure she wasn't on 165s? I think I seem to recall she used "mens' length" GS skis... and I wasn't endeavouring to ski a WC SL course...where shorter would be advantageous ...
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perhaps they were rebranded punter demo skis with a new topcoat hence so soft??
(NB: this is a joke)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@kitenski, titter. They were not
It is reasonable to suggest however that my use case (e.g. including skiing powder) is not, strictly, the definition of what they were designed for ... and that had I only been skiing gates on them, I would have preferred the shorter ski.
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@under a new name, My point was that you present your experience as applicable to other people, maybe the OP of the other thread does want to ski in a similar way to you, if you are both happy with the result then that is good.
This may not be using the skis in the way they were designed to be used though.
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@rjs, it is applicable to anyone wanting a real-world fun, rewarding, mostly on firm piste, short turny experience.
It’s probably not applicable if you are only wanting them for racing slalom on a dry slope.
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| jedster wrote: |
| I don't have enough experience to give a real world comment but I think Lindsey Vonn competed at about 72kg - if a skier like her wasn't overpowering 155 FIS SLs, should you have been able to? |
There's "slight" difference between FIS compliant skis, that you can buy, and World cup race stock that racers on World cup ski. I'm pretty sure majority of people here on Snowheads were closest to real WC race skis if they were on some World cup race, and racers or servicemen pass by them with skis on shoulder. I don't mean anything bad with this, but real WC ski is something completely different to ski then FIS race skis, so it's actually perfectly possible for @under a new name to "overpower" his wife's skis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
You sure she wasn't on 165s? I think I seem to recall she used "mens' length" GS skis... and I wasn't endeavouring to ski a WC SL course...where shorter would be advantageous ...
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The very opposite of sure! I assumed that the minimum lengths were for a reason though - tighter radii makes a WC SL course "easier". i.e., less ludicrously difficult
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| Quote: |
I don't mean anything bad with this, but real WC ski is something completely different to ski then FIS race skis, so it's actually perfectly possible for @under a new name to "overpower" his wife's skis.
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ah Ok - same dimension but even more metal?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@jedster, dimensions are same or similar (depending on model, as for WC there's several different models, while for store it's normally single model, which is year or two old model from WC tour), but construction is mostly different. From different materials to different amount of materials. Difference is actually so big, that when you are used to WC race stock, it's even hard to say normal "FIS race skis" people outside of WC tour can get, even qualify as race skis 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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makes it even more amazing the Bode won on those K2 Fours back in the day!
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@primoz, also totally take your point. As it happens I (apparently) own a pair of “full on” factory GS skis.
The “FIS” skis I am talking about were only store bought, albeit the store that supplies the local race squads.
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You know it makes sense.
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@jedster, indeed!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I know it's easier to ride powder on SL skis than an SL snowboard, although I'd do neither willingly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The top racers do get a very individual service from their sponsors regarding skis. But is there any difference in the FIS complient skis that club racers etc can buy and the ones supplied by the firms to sponsored racers not operating in the top levels?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Also, that (ed. Get on with it, man! tl:dr) I “felt” that I could “over-power” my wife’s skis. I felt that I could “break” their grip (a little bit) in a way that I couldn’t do mine. @under a new name, I'd not look at that as a "fault" but more that you're driving them within the intended range of use to, in effect, be competitive with them.
If you watch decent footage of slalom racing, or stand close to the gates to observe, as they approach the pole they are effectively aiming inside the pole then to let the slip take their radius so that it just clears. The error when it occurs here seems to be that too much engagement at that point would cause them to straddle and be eliminated.
My view of that is that you can more effectively use the grip of the centre to rear of the ski if you can reasonably modulate the slip at the front.
To put it another way, if you have ultimate grip at the tips that never gives up, then the rear will eventually release first and most people couldn't control that characteristic.
It appears that from your description that you are better matched at the speeds you were using them to the shorter ski and not bringing the longer ski into its optimal performance. In essence you need to up the speed, cadence, commitment on the longer ski to see them reach into their true performance capacity.
I know that runs counter to what our thinking wants in s ski, but it may offer the highest pure performance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@ski3, I was making the assumption that any slalom course that under a new name was likely to ski would be set so that you can carve arc-to-arc most turns. Getting the skis to carve into the fall line can be a lot harder to do if the skis are not matched to your body weight.
Maybe I'm wrong and he will be forerunning tomorrow.
If you just want to ski outside a slalom course and feel yourself getting thrown around by the skis then fine, but as I wrote above this isn't really what the skis are designed for, there may also be cheaper skis that will do this for you.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rjs, they did not throw me around.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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P.s. I was arc to arc carving skinny skis in the 80s - have not got out of the habit ... 
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| under a new name wrote: |
| P.s. I was arc to arc carving skinny skis in the 80s - have not got out of the habit ... |
That is amazing, you can carve a 11m arc on 70m sidecut radius skis ?
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@rjs, yep. Clearly you do not understand geometry.
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@under a new name, Or maybe just a different interpretation of the term "carve".
Can you provide photographic evidence ? Make parallel tracks from both skis with no skidding at all.
I have some 201cm race stock Kaestle Pure Machine SL skis in perfect condition that you can borrow if that will help.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
under a new name wrote:
P.s. I was arc to arc carving skinny skis in the 80s - have not got out of the habit ...
That is amazing, you can carve a 11m arc on 70m sidecut radius skis ?
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Surely noone (not even the pros) skied arc to arc in slalom gates on skinny skis? I remember watching it as unweight / edge check / rebound?
Any carving I did (and I wasn't racing) was more super G than sl!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rjs, in a hurry, yes, you may well be quite right and would love to try the skis if the logistics work
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jedster wrote: |
| this vid was 1996 and the skis already look a little shorter and more shaped but I dont see any arc to arc carving! |
The skis I described above are from the following season, they do have a bit more shape but I calculated that they still have a 50m sidecut radius.
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A few years back I measured my old Rossi 7SKs at 45m. But that is not reflective of turn radius ... need to think in 3D with torsion.
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You know it makes sense.
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Well not overpowering but an interesting thing today while skiing on stuff that may charitably described as firm. While in general grateful for the grip like a gorilla on meth I did have one incident where it was gripping more on pine cones than snow and dramatically let go bouncing me onto the wrong ski. There's a hell of a lot of rebound in an FIS SL.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Yup, I still sometimes get an extra big rebound that bounces me a bit higher than I am used to coming out of a turn. I need stronger legs.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I found with the rebound that it really challenges you when you hit a little compression or hard patch right at the end of the turn can get a "whoaa!!!" moment. Generally though I feel very secure on them. When I make a ballsup skiing it is generally getting caught on the wrong ski (weight inside) when trying to carve big/wide/straight skis (obviously a feature of my technical deficiencies!). The narrowness of SLs means that I can always edge change easily.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Current slalom technique mostly uses crossunder/retraction turns so you are managing the pressure on the skis yourself throughout the turn and don't get an unexpected rebound.
The Chamonix WC was interesting to watch as it looked to be really flat light for the first run, racers were finding it hard to judge how to pressure the skis as they couldn't see any bumps.
One change between the 1996 video above and today is the hand protection on ski poles. Back then everyone was using open guards, today everyone uses closed ones that join up to the top of the pole grip. Open guards will catch on the snow if you touch your inside hand down.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rjs, was the Cham WC this morning? Must have been vile!
Oh, no, of course, today is Monday ... hard to keep up!
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 10-02-20 14:55; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jedster wrote: |
| this vid was 1996 and the skis already look a little shorter and more shaped but I dont see any arc to arc carving! |
In the day that probably looked totally radical, today it looks like they picked up their equipment from Ebay.
So this question about bending girly racing skis - how many ASBP's is this worth anyway?
(ASBP = Apres Ski Bragging Points)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DB, it does not quite seem to have elicited the sage discussion I was hoping for.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@under a new name, What kind of discussion were you expecting ? Either slalom technique has changed since the days of "straight" skis or it hasn't. I maintain that it has changed and since I have a licence to teach this stuff I could claim some support for that view.
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| rjs wrote: |
Current slalom technique mostly uses crossunder/retraction turns so you are managing the pressure on the skis yourself throughout the turn and don't get an unexpected rebound.
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Yes - understood. I try to ski crossunder turns most of the time when carving tight turns but I don't have a race background. My point was really that once in a while (like 3 times in the last day on my SLs) I found that I struggled to manage the pressure and it seemed to be that there was more pressure than I had anticipated because I was angulating hard into a compression and had to ride the rebound. Totally pilot error!
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@rjs, have not strongly argued against that ... but ... I have no photos but I had one experience of carving (!) serial arcs in a frozen river above Morgins in 1991. I was younger, strongera dn surprised myself.
My point (and your and @ski3's points are totally worthy of consideration) is only that I felt I preferred the 165s.
Hey ho. It is entirely also reasonable that I prefer them because I was suing them outside of their design goal.
They were still remarkably good in powder.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'd have though @primoz's comment is worthy of thought too - retail FIS skis aren't WC race room so perhaps the women's length are less stiff than is optimal for you
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@jedster, yep, that also.
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