 Poster: A snowHead
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Following on from another thread.
Is it to give you the skills to challenge yourself or is it to challenge you into learning a skill?
From my coaching background, we taught technique and progressive skills development to a point where the gymnast was ready to string these together into a trick or routine and even then all safety equipment (crash pit, harness etc,) was utilised until the person was repeatedly ably to complete the trick. You never told anyone to just go for it!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, I'm sure there are ski teachers in the world who believe in the "just go for it" system, but I don't think most do. Generally students would be taught certain skills and then challenged to practise it for real. Some students insist on doing this too soon on their own, and others have to be pushed or persuaded to do it. the trick (obviously) is to sort out which is which and choose correctly. this is fine in most cases, but no-one can get it right 100% of the time!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
| no-one can get it right 100% of the time! |
I'm sure not  but I wonder how many instructors even have the time in the ski school system to be that introspective with their clients. I'm having a hard time judging from many of the other posters what they expect from instruction and how it effects the responsibilities of teacher and pupil.
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Uh-oh.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd like to see that question better phrased, for skills to challenge oneself are readily available if the challenge is trivial. External challenge to do anything beyond trivial is laughable if the realm of challenge hasn't been made personally relevant. It is in building that relevance that 'just do it' has value. Are not the goals a recreational skier brings to a lesson request defined by what he or she has failed at 'just doing'?
Comparing committed gymnasts and blase recreational skiers on holiday. Very chancy without further definition and limits on the scope of discussion.
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Isn't part of the skill of an instructor working out what will work for the particular student? I sometimes get a bit lazy or tentative so some of my best runs have come with someone shouting at me to go for it. I don't think this is the right approach for everyone though
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Sorry, I hope no one is thinking there's any criticism here, real or implied, it's an open question. I'm just curious. I wonder if recreational skiers are willing to to put in the effort to drill in and practice hard or do they expect a fast progression and are disappointed if their instructor actual concentrates on one skill till they get it right. I used the gymnastics analogy 'cos it's one I'm familiar with and in reality it's intrinsically less dangerous the skiing/snowboarding.
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Masque, Were you a gymnastics coach?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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IncogSkiSno, Trampoline, but had a lot of Gymnastics training with it. often used floor based equipment to develop certain skill sets. It was a horribly long time ago
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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True true finding ways to make some of the more mundane bits fun is tough, but not sure it matters. Those that really want to progress will put in the time like guys in the park for example and those that want to be escorted round and given a few tips as part of their holiday well that's cool too.
To answer the thread it's a bit of both I feel, like most sports learning I guess you can't push someone without the right "tools" straight off the high board equally every now and then someone needs a shove off the high board they're capable of doing. It may well be me projecing my own learning pattern but I would lean towards teaching the appropriate techniques then pushing the envelope. Most people don't learn on the edge of their envelope but by pushing it is expanded and they feel comfortable at a higher level when back inside and can acquire techniques. If you're never pushed it's very tough to progress.
Time for the war cry "Safety, Enjoyment, Learning" which is ironic as most snowsports are pretty intrinsically unsafe.
I defer to easiski and agree most don't want to spend time in what are often seen as boring drills. Personally I love practising technique repeating one run, I always did but I guess that's why I took it further.
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Masque - one of my Oz skiing friends is an ex-english lady who was a trampoliner/diver.... she broke neck though when she was doing a display thing one day and the sun got in her face and she could not spot the landing... so she did a safety landing - but forgot which one she was demoing and took the wrong safety option.... 
she skis well but cannot turn neck at all (spinal fusions)... so frets when she hears noises behind her....
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You know it makes sense.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Is it to give you the skills to challenge yourself or is it to challenge you into learning a skill? |
In the American (PSIA) system (or at least in the Rocky Mountain Division where I did my certification), the answer would be "either, or neither, depending upon what the guest wants". That is Guest-centred Teaching. To its logical extension, if the guest wants to spend the rest of his/her life cruising around blue groomed runs, rotating with the hips and banking with the shoulders (and it is only too easy to ski blue runs your whole life like that), it is not for the instructor to gainsay that desire. His/her job is then merely to make sure the guest is escorted safely around the mountain, doesn't get too tired, gets to see some nice views, and is kept away from any nasty surprises.
The traditional European approach has always been at the other end of the spectrum (as evidenced by a couple of the testimonials in that other thread): "you vill do zees, you vill do zat, now follow me!"
Most good instructors who have been "about a bit" tend to use a blend between these extremes. Sometimes, for example, it is necessary to give people a (tiny, safe as possible) taste of tougher terrain, before they fully realise the shortcomings of their current movement patterns. Then, when the motivation has been "helped" a little, you take them back to the easy terrain and "groove" the correct movements until those new movements are "hardwired" enough to withstand the psychological pressure of stepping up the terrain again.
Or, without going near tougher terrain, guests can be given a "taste" of what it feels like to have a ski arcing along its sidecut, and that can also help establish motivation to start learning about the world of carved turns.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Martin Bell, "To its logical extension, if the guest wants to spend the rest of his/her life cruising around blue groomed runs, rotating with the hips and banking with the shoulders (and it is only too easy to ski blue runs your whole life like that), it is not for the instructor to gainsay that desire. " In this case why on earth would they take a lesson? That's fine as it goes, and it does depend on one's type of work. In a ski school class situation you do get this sort of student, however if they book private instruction then one assumes (and naturally one asks) that they're looking to improve. Of course I speak from the perspective of someone doing intensive technical tuition, and therefore am unlikely to get this sort of student.
I think some of the problem lies in that those of us brought up through the BASI system have had it drilled into us the SAFETY, ENJOYMENT, LEARNING should be in that order, and that the class must go at the speed/abiltiy of the slowest person. I do see that the French tend to pitch their lessons at the middle of the class, which they hope will keep everyone happy. In addition I would say that most French instructors try for ENJOYMENT, LEARNING, SAFETY in that order.
The British student (OK generalisations are odious but..) is much more frightened than the French, Dutch or Danish student for some reason, and tend also to be very negative. I can't realy mention American students as I haven't had many. eg: You get to the bottom of a run that is a step up for them, and they were frightened but coped: The French, Dutch, Danish student says "I DID IT, but I was really frightened" the British student says "I WAS REALLY FRIGHTENED, but I did it" - that's a huge difference in thinking.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, Hmm. Frightened or concerned? I can recall one spot with you where I was certainly concerned - I am not sure I would say frightened. And your training of me previously, and encouragement at the time, certainly did the trick.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Don't most people know what they are trying to do...? I guess not...!!
I'll know the shortcomings o my turn or a run for example and work out next time how to go about it better. Sometimes its
down to just a bad day or I'm tired. I'll look at other skiers to see how they do it and maybe try and copy it or adopt it.
This seems to me the most basic of 'instruction', the type of thing you learnt as a kid...you visualised everything and tried to copy it. You look for other solutions when you have exhausted these IMV.
And of course, the one thing you do is watch ski instructors, especially French ones. I think you should be open and learn from most you ski with, if only to say, thats not how you do it...!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| JT wrote: |
Don't most people know what they are trying to do...? I guess not...!!
I'll know the shortcomings o my turn or a run for example and work out next time how to go about it better. Sometimes its
down to just a bad day or I'm tired. I'll look at other skiers to see how they do it and maybe try and copy it or adopt it.
This seems to me the most basic of 'instruction', the type of thing you learnt as a kid...you visualised everything and tried to copy it. You look for other solutions when you have exhausted these IMV.
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actually NO ...
I'm the extreme example.... no proprioception = NFI of what the hell my body is doing... even if someone tells me to do xxx I will THINK I am doing it but be doing somethinbg else entirely! Or be missing an important part that no-one describes because they never have to think about it because it just happens (not in my case)
the easiest example to see was my rollerblading instructor trying to get me to have a longer glide on 1 skate... (now I have had 3 instructors as i move about a bit and they have all done this same exercise wanting the same result)
So he sets up nice red traffic cones... I am to skate towards them... lift skate at first one and hold until i reach the second...... Once again I fail miserably - as I had explained to him i would - I just cannot do thios exercise! This instructor is curious... he insists on watching me from a couple of different angles as I try but keep putting skate down because I am "falling" (i can last about 2 seconds if that)
He discovers that unlike MOST students I don't include the unspoken "transfer weight to other FOOT" before the "lift foot" .... I have no sensation that I fall due to this... hence for me it is lift foot =fall over we started working on a system that involved a quite deliberate move hands to side - lift foot sequence and I seemed to do much better.... as mostly with the hand movemenst we set I was forcing my weight transfer at least partially to the other foot....
Unfotunately i am now in Ireland and rollerblade lessons are on hold until i return home...
Anyway - that is a simple example of the stuff that some people struggle with and why.... There are plenty of folks with low level proprioceptive skills for instance.... not anywhere near as bad gumbies as me... but gumbies nonetheless... YOU know the ones... the sort you made fun of and picked on at school... because they ran like retarded people or tripped over their own feet all the time or etc etc etc... (don't pretend you didn't I was the kid got hit by the stones every day on the way home from school)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, you may already know this, but an excellent exercise for you would be to practice standing on one leg. First do it with your eyes open until you're well enough practiced to do it for a couple of minutes. Sounds like this may take a while in your case, but start off balanced before lifting the free foot very gently and just stay as well balanced as you can. Then try shutting your eyes - makes it a huge amount more difficult. Try it shutting eyes for a few seconds only to start with (until you start losing balance), then open and recover balance, then try again. As your proprioceptors train up you will be able to hold it progressively for longer shut-eye periods. (I've only just started recently and am still having troubles getting much above 30 seconds shut-eye, particularly on my right foot.)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yeah - took a while to learn to do it eyes open - like 40 years.... still can't do the shut one
in fact your progression is too sudden for me - the steps too big... I failed at step one for years - just could not lift other leg off floor for more than a couple of seconds....
It took some some bunny working out to use a finger as a balance point of reference to get me started really.... you remove the finger for a fraction of a second... then increase the time.... then progress to tapping finger.... lengthen gaps between taps....
Proprioceptors can train all they like - but with no nerves to connect them to cerebellum they don't do ZIP....
In fact I have to build whole new brain pathways to learn to do stuff - using the input from my sense of touch(light touch and pressure) and my vision I can compensate....
hence I am uber-nerd re technical understanding in my skiing lessons... No-one else can really translate what they feel and do into anything at all sensible to me... So I need to try to "translate" what is required into other things I do have experience of and then try to reuse the compensatory pathways I have built and along the way as we correct and refine i build new ones too.... So I can suddenly do more things better than before 
For you - you might want to try adding an unstable base to your attempts... so stand on a cushion or mat or dynadisc and try that balancing stuff.... use a dynadisc for lunges and squats.... maybe a bosu or fitball for push-ups, chest press or flys, also for side raises... This all trains your proprioception and core stability....
Also note that the position of your hands has a BIG effect... Palms down and arms spread (not tight just spread) is usually best.... cross arms across chest hands on shoulders for hardest....
(I have had an awful lot of training doing this stuff... if you want more exercises just ask... if I try hard i can remember lots of stuff they make me do)
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Oh re the eyes open bit.... one reason it is harder when you shut eyes is you look for vertical and horizontal lines to use as clues.... so see how you go if there are no true verticals nearby.... could be interesting....
Learnt this when some gym instructors who were studying some human movement course at university started checking out how i worked.... someone pointed out teh above to them...
I always stood next to teh chin bar as it was my finger touch point for balance aid.... this day my balance was WAAAAY OFF..... then i saw them giggling.... One of them had pushed the top of bar so it had a lean - not true vertical.... I kept trying to use the line and promptly kept falling.... THEN they got smart and started making it SWAY... I very nicely swayed along in sync.... and kept falling down!
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Had a instructor last year who made us ski down a gentle slope with our eyes shut with him shouting turn left turn right etc. Its purpose which was to make us more aware of weight transfer worked well
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One of my early instructors did it to earn my trust... just skied a few turns with his eyes shut so that he could feel what it was like to be missing one of your senses.... he figured if I was blind to my body he could ski blind for a bit as well...
Great instructor - I miss him! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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riverman, handy in a white-out, where the only cues you'll get are through your skis.
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little tiger I suspected that was going to be old news...sorry for the egg sucking lesson.
riverman once in Flaine an instructor had us ski eys-shut down a blue: 5 long turns, 5 short then a 360. First effort was a complete disaster, but the 2nd attempt was pretty successful for all of us.
laundryman, skiing on a smooth piste in a white-out can be "interesting". More than once I have stopped, waiting for a skiing companion, then seen a piste marker sail gently past....as it became clear I was not stationary after all! Off-piste doesn't normally have that problem, but offers plenty other opportunities for screw-ups - particuarly if you're making first tracks. Skiing happily along, taking some care but enjoying it too, then all of a sudden finding the slope has dropped way below you can be a bit disconcerting - cost me a new pair of poles at the EoSB.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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GrahamN, too right! I also have a tendency to fall once stopped, since there is nothing to say which way is up!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, I don't have that problem in white-outs....but there's plenty of evidence of such problems while in perfect visibility!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Nick Zotov, Frightened. there are lots of people who ski perfectly well, but are frightened to ski on a more difficult piste (Combe de Thuit for example when they're fine on Toura or glacier blues). they have the tools to do it, but have to be pushed and bullied into it. Once they've done it (sometimes several times) with me they will dare on their own.
JT, No, most people can't learn the way you seem to. Shame for them, good for us!
little tiger, I ws made to ski bumps in the Corrie Cas gunbarrell with my eyes closed for my Grade III - very slowly mind you. personally I hate it! However, what that teacher did is fairly normal I would think - I once had a lady who'd recently lost her arm, so I went off and skied with one arm stuck to my body to see if there wer any major balance issues etc. In that case there weren't, and as she'd been skiing for 40 years she never really had a problem either. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Oh and for Mick Zotov ...
I am often terrified... many times for no good reason..... I simply carry much baggage as my experience over the years is that I cannot do what everyone tells me is easy and I get hurt! So I have this silly fear of falling 
It can take a LOT of good experience to convince my poor little brain that I am NOT going to fall down and be a mangled mess....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| easiski wrote: |
| Martin Bell, "To its logical extension, if the guest wants to spend the rest of his/her life cruising around blue groomed runs, rotating with the hips and banking with the shoulders (and it is only too easy to ski blue runs your whole life like that), it is not for the instructor to gainsay that desire. " In this case why on earth would they take a lesson? That's fine as it goes, and it does depend on one's type of work. In a ski school class situation you do get this sort of student, however if they book private instruction then one assumes (and naturally one asks) that they're looking to improve. |
There are many other reasons. Some wealthy families on holiday in Vail book as many private instructors as possible, because it is a status symbol to have a large number of instructors sitting around with you at lunch.
I heard one story of an instructor who was asked to go shopping with one rich private client - she didn't really want to ski, but her husband wouldn't take no for an answer and had booked an instructor for her anyway.
And some people just want a "guide" to show them around the mountain.
But yes, even in Vail, the majority are usually looking to improve. They don't always know what the necessary commitment will be - nor sometimes what the rewards will be either. I believe it's the instructor's job to point out that trade-off - "If you put this effort in for XXX days/weeks, you'll be able to do XXX that you couldn't do before". Of course that formula is different for different people, be they adults or kids.
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Martin Bell, Interesting - glad I work for myself - if someone asked me to go shopping I'd give them their money back! I've heard of this sort of thing - thankfully we don't get these spoilt wealthy types here - just nice ordinary people, who've saved their money and spend some of it on lessons!
"They don't always know what the necessary commitment will be - nor sometimes what the rewards will be either. I believe it's the instructor's job to point out that trade-off" exactly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Elizabeth B, Of course if they were going to pay for my shopping!!
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easiski, Liz B and I only go shopping in 2's Alps for bladders
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Linds, That fact was noted and may be used against you at some point in the future! How is it performing now? - not leaking I hope....
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This season, between Christmas & New Year, I had one of the best weeks skiing whilst working. And yes, I was booked on a private for 6 days.
I turned up, met the family of 5 (all good strong skiers), was told immediately that there was to be no instruction, just take them to all the good skiing spots, the best powder stashes, and cut all the lift lines.
We had a ball. We went to the steepest and deepest stuff around, ski'd hard, had a great time. Inspite of the initital declaration, I couldn't help myself and gave a few pointers here and there, which were well received.
On the last day another family memebr turned up, and was so impressed with the service he immediately booked me for his family the next week!
The pistes/groomers for those two weeks were merely routes to the next couloir/chute/bowl/trees....
I guess different folk book instructors for defferent reasons, more so out here on the North American continent.
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FAQ
I am a Club Gymnastics Coach, and a qualified Trampolene coach, but I hated trampolene coaching so never used the qualification. 
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