 Poster: A snowHead
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hi everyone, quick question to fellow instructors...... when teaching basic snow plough technique, how else would you help a beginner to turn the ski if they struggle to rotate their legs in order to make the snowplough change direction etc, i have come across this whilst teaching older, less flexible people..... this is on a nursery slope at a fridge where really the slope is a little too steep for people who struggle making the movement, i am loathed to get them starting to shift weight at this point as really it should be done with rotation etc, however this is not a basi exam and i want them to be able to turn the ski so they are safer etc and also so they get to enjoy it.....
cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm, I'm not a practising instructor, but I think I'd try
Rotating feet in ski boots on the flat, not clipped into skis
Clip in, still on the flat and see if they can still rotate, perhaps use ski poles to support and see if they could lift the ski off the snow and rotate the skis to tap the ski poles?
If they can do that, see if it helps on the least steep area you can find, then gradually increase steepness
Or when i was shadowing and a few years younger, they had me skiing backwards, grabbing the tips and helping them rotate and hold in the snow plough position
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ajc2260626 wrote: |
hi everyone, quick question to fellow instructors...... when teaching basic snow plough technique, how else would you help a beginner to turn the ski if they struggle to rotate their legs in order to make the snowplough change direction etc, i have come across this whilst teaching older, less flexible people..... this is on a nursery slope at a fridge where really the slope is a little too steep for people who struggle making the movement, i am loathed to get them starting to shift weight at this point as really it should be done with rotation etc, however this is not a basi exam and i want them to be able to turn the ski so they are safer etc and also so they get to enjoy it.....
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Good for you! I only learned to turn my feet when I started prepping for instructor training, because no-one had thought it appropriate to teach it to me in my first few lessons.... 
I agree with everything @kitenski suggested, although I find (in the fridge I teach in) that there is often a lot of loose snow at the bottom, so patterning the movement with skis on often doesn't work that well. when there's only a little loose snow it can work to make a bow tie shape by rotating the foot.
Try what @kitenski said in the rentals area before the lesson. Get the group to stand in a skiing posture and model turning the foot (leg). Try and make sure the are isolating the leg movement and not bring knees in/out or swinging hips rather than turning the leg, and rotating around mid foot or toe if that is too subtle. Try one leg at a time to begin and make it a slow controlled movement, not windscreen wiper-y.
On the slope setup with straight running excercises such as plough-parallel-plough, I often follow this with something like "okay, can we agree that to move from plough to parallel and back we are just turning our feet in *opposite* directions? Yes? What do you think will happen if we start in a snowplough and turn our feet slowly in the *same* direction? Lets give it a go.. [demos] starting in that narrow plough, turning my feet slowly a little to the left, a little to the right" [I actually lifted most of this from a lesson given by a senior instructor that I shadowed early on - probably the most useful lesson I shadowed and bang-on central theme]
If the slope is too steep (ours is) maybe start nearer the bottom rather than making the plough excessively wide, if the legs are widely abducted and the skis excessively on edge they won't be able to turn their feet. Recently I've been starting this lower down the slope with a narrower plough than I had previously done and it seems to work. I rarely have to resort to teaching shifting weight for first turns, although sometimes if someone really can't do it it's better to try a different approach that allows them to progress rather than getting frustrated and not enjoying it...
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cheers guys, i do all of the above..... so good to know that i am on the same page as the rest of us etc...... i just wondered if there were any magic beans that i might not be aware of 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Tubaski wrote: |
| If the slope is too steep (ours is) maybe start nearer the bottom rather than making the plough excessively wide, if the legs are widely abducted and the skis excessively on edge they won't be able to turn their feet. |
This.
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Will let the do some from half way and see how that goes, although I try to make them keep a small plough there self preservation instinct overrides
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If they are finding it hard to make particular inputs, you could try giving them an output to focus on instead. One I like is for them to visualise the snowplough as the head of an arrow and ask them to point the whole arrow where they want to go.
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| ajc2260626 wrote: |
| ... i am loathed to get them starting to shift weight at this point as really it should be done with rotation etc, |
Is there any reason you don't want them to move more of their weight on to the turning ski? Having more of your balance on the outside ski early in the turn does not mean that they will edge the ski rather than rotate it. If they are having trouble turning I'd have thought balancing more effectively on the turning ski will help them get some control earlier in the turn.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hey rob, I have found that they do even less rotation and instead concentrate on just putting weight on the ski rather than rotation with some weight etc. The issue that happens a lot too is forgetting it rotate the inside ski as well as the outside ski, and instead they end up rotating the outside ski on its own
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| ajc2260626 wrote: |
| Hey rob, I have found that they do even less rotation and instead concentrate on just putting weight on the ski rather than rotation with some weight etc. The issue that happens a lot too is forgetting it rotate the inside ski as well as the outside ski, and instead they end up rotating the outside ski on its own |
OK, I don't teach beginners any more, but it strikes me that by not moving effectively on to the outside ski early in the turn you are limiting how effectively it will turn the skier. If a skier subconsciously feels that they aren't turning as much as they would like to move through the fall line and back to the 'safety' of the second half of the turn, they can often do all sorts of unhelpful things, consciously or subconsciously.
When I have taught adult beginners I often used the 'imagine the skis are the point of an arrow, and keep turning your feet to point the arrow in the direction you want to travel' analogy which kieranm mentioned. I think lots of beginners don't understand how far around the turn they need to travel to maintain good speed control, and some just give up on the effort they need to make to complete the turn sufficiently to carry the appropriate speed in to the next turn. In those circumstances I might challenge them to follow my line as best they can, making sure I do a well rounded, long arc so they get a feel for what is needed to complete the turn. For added encouragement, you can ski backwards so you can talk and enthuse them to the level of effort they need to make to complete the turn properly. For a bit of fun, if you have something like a small traffic cone to hand, you can give the skier a snowball and challenge them to follow you (as you ski backwards) close enough to lob the snowball in to the traffic cone. This switches their focus entirely from internal to external.
As soon as they start to turn in both directions I'll then introduce stretching to get them to move more effectively on to the turning ski at the beginning of the turn.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The pointing the arrow is one I use a lot, the issue that I see most from people who struggle is the ability to turn the femur in the hip socket to rotate the ski usually due to flexibility issues, or sometimes a coordination issue of being able to turn both legs at the same time. It’s good to know that everything that’s been suggested I already do
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ah rotation, the big gaping hole in the BASI manual.
For my money it’s worth pursuing a snow-plough version of braquage. Work at the bottom of the slope so they don’t build up too much speed. Concentrate on one leg first and get them to touch the tip of one ski to a point about a foot back from the tip of the other then return to a plough. Repeat then work on the other leg. Then, finally, alternate legs.
Movements should be smooth and not snatched. Weight should be evenly balanced throughout so that progress is always down the fall line. Try to keep the body facing down the hill so that only the legs are turning.
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| altis wrote: |
| Ah rotation, the big gaping hole in the BASI manual. |
??? have you seen the latest one...
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You know it makes sense.
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lets hear it
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In truth, no. Obviously I’m behind the curve.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@altis, latest manual is worth having a look at , big improvement over the older versions and Pressure, Edge, Rotation feature large 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ah right, so we are saying that the latest manual covers this better than before? i will have a look as its on my iPad, to be honest i thought the previous one was pretty good anyway
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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is the online one updated with rotation??
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The current one is a couple years old, my guess was that Altis was looking at one perhaps a bit older...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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hmm mine says (c) BASI 2011 on the inside cover, I guess it's been updated since then??
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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best to download it on to iPad etc
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@ajc2260626, check they don't simply have a bad stance, if there's too much weight on the heels due to bad stance you can't rotate as easily - I always show this to the people I'm teaching at this level, get them to rock back and forth trying to rotate one ski whilst standing still, they'll feel a difference when they are in the right place.
They've already rotated to get into snowplough so there must be some movement, you don't need much more movement to begin the turn, then encourage pressure - try with toes first as this would mean the heels have less weight on
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@Little Martin, thats a good idea too show them the difference etc, as they all ski too much in the back...... i show them the for and aft rocking but never with rotation chucked in so will give that a go 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If they're stood too upright with stiff, straight legs it can be harder to rotate legs as well. There's an analogy you can make with turning a screwdriver - if you try to do it with a straight arm it's really awkward, but if you bend at the elbow and wrist it's much easier.
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Reinforce a good athletic stance with pressure on the cuff of the boot. If they have their weight on their heels they will not be able to exert rotational force through their leg, ankle, and foot/boot to the ski.
You can do a simple exercise to reinforce this by having them stand with skis attached on flat ground, have them stand upright with their weight on their heels and then ask them to spread their skis into a "V" by pushing/rotating the heels outward. It will be difficult if at all possible.
Then...
...have them flex into an athletic stance (like a basketball player or tennis player at the ready), reinforce that their shins should be pressing against the cuff of their boots and ask them to spread their skis again into a "V"...they should now be able to...
....once they achieve success with this you can talk about the mechanics of it.
The progression is to then have them do one leg at a time.
In order to get one/leg ski to rotate there has to be a weight shift. The weight shift does not need to be much but it has to happen. Get them to experience the rotation while standing on flat ground, don't get to talkative about the technical side of this, but once they can get the hang of it while standing you can then translate it to while moving on the hill.
One other thing....have them initiate the turn by looking ahead toward a point in the direction they want to turn.
-Z
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