 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello,
Does anyone knows what is an average salary (+\-) per month net as a ski instructor in France (ESF or independent)?
I know it’s very hard to teaching in France as a foreigner, just a question out of curiosity. Sometimes I heard really big numbers as a 10k euro/month (40/50k per 4month season) but don’t know is that true..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I cannot really say for sure, but I think that, like here in CH, instructors within a ski school are not paid a salary as such, just an hourly rate. A realistic maximum of 6 hours per day makes up around 180 hours in a month, or more significantly around 550 hours across the whole season. (I've gone with 13 weeks, but of course there are places where the 4 months you suggested may be possible in a good season, just not everywhere).
I don't know their hourly rates, but a bit of guesswork from what I think our fully qualified instructors are paid would suggest not more than EU50 per hour, in all likelihood most would be getting a lot less than that. But working from that makes around eu27500 for the whole season, working first to last lift every day. But most will not be able to do that much even if they wanted to.
I stand to be corrected on all the above if any actual French-working instructors would care to share.
Independent is something else, of course...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A fully trained High Mountain Guide might earn that type of money before costs , Insurance , introductions etc at €450/500 a day but not a ski instructor.
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In France most ski instructors are not salaried but independent. All ESF instructors are technically independent, with the skischool offering wide administrative and other support.
There is a pecking order: oldest returning instructors with the skischool work before more recent ones, fully qualified instructors work before stagiaires, those that do the whole season work before those coming just for the busy weeks.
The percentage of ''retenue'' aka what the ski school holds back on the gains made by the instructor is determined by all the above factors. This percentage also differs between different skischools so for ex. ESF resort A compared to ESF resort B. A fully qualified instructor working the entire season that's been with the skischool for 40 years will work all the time and make a lot of money. An example of his or her retenue could be 9 percent. A stagiaire only coming in for 2 weeks of holidays can in some places be at 50 percent retenue. He could have made around 1800 euros for those 2 weeks. Some ski schools however encourage people to instruct only for the holiday weeks and lower their retenu for a specific very busy week. So there are lots of factors.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I guess nobody will let on, especially those cash payments 
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And a High Mountain Guide would probably not be out day after day, week after week? I don't think anybody does those sorts of jobs to make their fortune. Like sailing instructors, they do it for love rather than money. The French instructors I know have summer job on the lines of motor cycle instructor, farmer. For part of the season there are more instructors than paying customers, so not everyone will get all the work they might like.
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I just asked ESF instructor in La Plagne and he wrote 50/55e for an hour x number of hours that’s a nice amount .
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 8-03-24 19:07; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What's a nice number?
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Your numbers are correct for an instructor working full-time in a big-name resort. Lots of factors and your figures are towards the higher end, but those kinds of numbers are totally achievable for a fully-qualified instructor managing to work more or less full-time all winter. I know plenty of instructors making that kind of money. I'm not going to comment too much on my own figures, but I made well over €30k in my first fully-qualified winter and that's far from unusual.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Was that gross, @stevomcd?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| Your numbers are correct for an instructor working full-time in a big-name resort. Lots of factors and your figures are towards the higher end, but those kinds of numbers are totally achievable for a fully-qualified instructor managing to work more or less full-time all winter. I know plenty of instructors making that kind of money. I'm not going to comment too much on my own figures, but I made well over €30k in my first fully-qualified winter and that's far from unusual. |
Thanks for inside info
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 8-03-24 22:01; edited 1 time in total
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@Origen, yes, gross obviously.
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You know it makes sense.
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And, I imagine, earned by doing long days and long weeks. With little time off!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yea not going into details but one point ill make is that its a career that hasn't got a financial ladder to climb. I do the job cause I love it. The Winters are EXCEPPTIONALLY long and tiring and there is very very little down time or family time, we are self employed and have no fall back (no instructors in France are basically employed!) in case of injury etc. Our body is our life etc! So what we earn in a 'good Winter' is based on circa 500+ hours of teaching which means working when there is demand! etc and most mornings we are in boots. The concept between what Guides earn and instructors is bogus really as both have long and extensive qualification demands. HOWEVER we are doing the job as we love teaching and love seeing people improve for the most part and after you have done it long enough you get 'paid' in meeting lovely clients and occasionally getting paid to ski 'at your level' for example ripping up powder. Tomorrow might be one of those days as the guy im skiing with in the afternoon tomorrow is a strong skier and we will rip powder all afternoon hopefully! Financially per season I earn enough to have a mortgage and live a comfortable life but nothing more! Over the years ive earnt more as ive gained qualifications and more importantly experience and building a loyal client base that look after me!
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Poster: A snowHead
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We get paid per hour worked so there is no salary... no clients = no income at all. Take a day off etc = nothing earnt
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Do 6hrs a day. At €50ph. For 100 working days a season. That's €30k.
About the same rate a Hooters waitress makes in the US (with tips).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Whitegold wrote: |
Do 6hrs a day. At €50ph. For 100 working days a season. That's €30k.
About the same rate a Hooters waitress makes in the US (with tips). |
Dont know whether to laugh or cry at that!
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Few of the people I know - and even fewer of the ones I love and respect - are largely career-motivated by money. As for Hooters waitresses I had to Google that and found the following:
How much does a Hooters Girl make? As of Feb 27, 2024, the average weekly pay for the Hooters Girl jobs category in the United States is $491 a week.
So they must work hard, in those stupid demeaning outfits, to earn their tips. I wouldn't bother to audition, Steve Angus.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It has been mentioned that these people are self employed, and injury/illness can be horrible, financially.
@chocksaway, will know who I mean, but I can think of an off piste guide based in Tignes who had such a bad injury that - iirc - he didnt earn for a season.
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Lots of accurate replies already, but this question is like asking "How much does a chef earn?"...
Are we talking 3 Michelin star chef, or chef in a chip shop?
As previously stated, I would not differentiate between ski instructor and IFMGA guide (typical day rate in my neck of the woods is similar for both), more relevant is the context they work in: ski school (or guides bureau) or independant? Working in a big name resort or a small mid-altitude area? Putting together their own courses (+ doing all the admin etc) or working for someone else, and so on and so on and so on...
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The set up might make a difference, too. I understood from an instructor in the ESI in Les Saisies that theirs was a "cooperative" set up but I don't know what that meant in practice. He did say it meant that the youngsters didn't get all the grotty jobs. He was quite senior (and over the years we asked for him by name a lot) but I also saw him out with kids groups and in the little kindergarten place. His lovely friendly, relaxed, manner, seemed the same with everyone and he talked to the kids a lot more than some instructors do. He was the one who was a motor cycle instructor in summer. In theory he spoke English but his English wasn't terrific and once he discovered I spoke some French, that was the end of that. But I just told myself I was getting two lessons for the price of one.
Another guy we used a fair bit was a builder in summer.
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| Rob Mackley wrote: |
| A fully trained High Mountain Guide might earn that type of money before costs , Insurance , introductions etc at €450/500 a day but not a ski instructor. |
That would be the bare minimum for a Guide around Chamonix, in Switzerland that's the minimum for a Mountain Leader, guide is more like 800 a day. Bare in mind cost of just keeping the qualification (as a high mountain guide) can easily be 10k a year. Costs me 2k as a mountain leader.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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My next door neighbour in Montalbert La Plagne has been an ESF instructor for many years. I have no idea what he earns in the season but he always takes a job outside the season - one year he was working in a DIY store “mainly” for the discount as he was / still is building his own chalet in a nearby village 
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GreenDay - 'he' - im thinking of a 'she' - or might be thinking of someone else
Origen - damn I was busy digging my miniskirt out when you told me not to bother!!!!
The other to bear in mind across the industry is length of a mountain professionals season and or number of hours they squeeze into a day! In a season I aim to work 500-550 hours typically but I know of instructors who work 700+ hours in a season then take 6 months off but the Winters kill them (and they also might not deliver the best quality of lessons either!)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| red 27 wrote: |
| Idris wrote: |
| , guide is more like 800 a day. |
Lots of loose usages of various terms... "guide"... IFMGA is €800 a day territory (as you probably know) but that's 3 worlds away from ski 'guides' shepherding punters safely down pistes (some other people may confuse the two) |
A quick look at the Bureau des Guides (not Girl Guides) de Chamonix shows me I can book a private day of off piste Guiding for sub-€500
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 10-03-24 8:44; edited 3 times in total
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Similar-iish price at Courchevel guides bureau (€550)... (though you can of course pay a lot more if you wish to, depending on which chalet you are staying in  ).
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You know it makes sense.
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For the last few years I have worked self employed (usually 6 weeks or so a year) under the Swiss system. Rates for a level 2 instructor are ca 30 CHF per hour (app €33). Level 3 instructors get ca 36 CHF per hour (app €40). (All figures are gross). I would estimate most colleagues work around 30 hours per week for the period they are active so most probably earn ca 1000 CHF per week gross (ie before tax). (Bytw from experience, the pay in Austria is ca 40% LESS + the tax is higher.). Also, as I am self employed I don‘t get any guaranteed work & am responsible for my own accommodation & travel costs. (In my case, these are relatively low as I own a flat near the border & commute to the ski school daily).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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..ymmv but I would expect to work about 160 - 200 hours in my 6 week period of instructing ..this roughly equates with the comments of Steve & other contributors to this thread bearing in mind they are working for the whole season.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In summary I earn enough to off set most of the imposed-thanks-to-Brexit health insurance charges..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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For new instructors, won't the biggest variant be how many weeks in the season they get to work? If only in peak weeks for the first few seasons that would place a big dent in possible earnings.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Das stimmt/yep..but then many newly qualified instructors (in Austria at any rate) opt to be employed on a far lower but guaranteed salary usually with basic accommodation thrown in..
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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..which would’t suit someone like me. But then I opted (ski-Unterricht + summer Wanderführer - both „beim Bedarf“) for this „hobby job“ lifestyle after retirement from a very stressful but appropriately paid real career.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| For new instructors, won't the biggest variant be how many weeks in the season they get to work? If only in peak weeks for the first few seasons that would place a big dent in possible earnings. |
Its always the case. When looking at 'how successful' the season is you look at how busy or quiet you are in the quiet weeks of the season.... how you can stretch the season as much as possible (hence working on PSB or EOSB is attractive as it stretches the season a little more than it would otherwise do). If those same weeks were a week later or earlier accordingly in the season then it would NOT be nearly as attractive as would clash with weeks that are already pretty busy already! Being busy in school holidays is 'easy' but getting fully booked for say the third week in January is what makes or breaks the season!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Bergsteiger278, would be interested to hear how you live in Austria but work in Switzerland self employed. What passport do you have as I see your comment re Brexit. PM if you don't want these details out there publicly. I ask as someone living in Austria currently unable to teach here due to visa issues....
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In case anyone is interested, in Austria, before I found out I wasn't able to work, I was offered €16 per hour on an ad-hoc weekend basis as a level 2. This equates to basically the same as I would earn on the dryslope back at home.
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One point to be borne in mind when freelance is that there is in effect a maximum amount you can earn. When I was a London based freelancer in the 1990s I got to around £60k annual turnover and realised that there was pretty much no way to increase that, you cant work everyday, you need holidays and there is a limit to your daily rate etc. If you want to move on from that you need to find a way to "set up a business", in this case starting up a ski school (I know not easy) or climbing school. In theory you make money from those working for you but you take on a bigger risk.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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One point to be borne in mind when freelance is that there is in effect a maximum amount you can earn. When I was a London based freelancer in the 1990s I got to around £60k annual turnover and realised that there was pretty much no way to increase that, you cant work everyday, you need holidays and there is a limit to your daily rate etc. If you want to move on from that you need to find a way to "set up a business", in this case starting up a ski school (I know not easy) or climbing school. In theory you make money from those working for you but you take on a bigger risk.
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Swskier
This is complicated.
Basically.
1 Post Brexit, I hold a „Privatier“ class of Austrian residence. This makes it easier for me to be self employed in neighbouring non EU countries such as Switzerland, Liechtenstein etc.
2 Linked to the visa, I pay for „alle Risiken bedeckende Krankenversicherung“ health insurance in Austria at a cost of ca €700 per month. In my case this is „gültig“ for temporary employment in Switzerland & Liechtenstein of up to 6 weeks.
3 As a homeowner in Vorarlberg near the border I am eligible for „Grenzgänger“ status.
4 Least but not last, I could satisfy the authorities and my employer that I speak fluent German.
Happy to discuss further offline if you want - graeme1707@gmail.com.
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FAQ
