I'm interested in getting into Ski Touring and I'm wondering if it's necessary to do lessons, or is this something that can be self taught relatively easily? I'm not including learning avalanche safety stuff (I can do that separately), just technique.
I have off piste experience, although I'm still at the beginner end of off piste but it's more a case of getting more practice in - I've done courses and lessons.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Well it is not rocket salad to move forward on skis with skins. To move forward efficiently is obviously another thing, judging by the number of guides and "pros" I see on videos with poorish technique.
As ever, I wouldn't overthink things too much.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@conor90,
I'd suggest you ask in the guides office in resort whether they might have a group that week doing an introduction to touring day. They may have nothing booked but often get a couple of inquiries and can put a group together.
As @davidof, says, it isn't too difficult to get started but a few hints and tips from a guide would help.
Should say my first time skinning was on a four day hut to hut tour. First morning was a bit of a struggle but after that it was OK and I got lots of practice in!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
jedster wrote:
a few hints and tips from a guide would help.
Yes I'd do something like that. Competent guide or instructor (like offpisteskiing / Simon Christie) (ie. one who can ski ) or experienced friend.
When I show a mate I recommend going to a nursery slope and doing 2 or 3 rotations. Providing you are averagely fit it's the taking the stuff on and off you need to get used to, so when your at the top and it's windy or hopefully the powder is deep you have half a chance of not looking like a Muppet. And If you set off with your boots in walk mode, we all do it, the fall won't be terminal. It will also give you half an idea of how few clothes you need on the way up, thin layers being the key.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Resort ski touring, which is a great way to try it out, was making a bit of a mark in many resorts last season, as well as mainstream retailers such as Decathlon jumping on the bandwagon too.
And then last season, as I often do at the end of the season, I take a number of people out, often for their first ski tour away from the pistes, this is a nice little piece my OH did on a day like that and pretty well sums up what can be had.
https://www.stylealtitude.com/how-to-ski-tour.html
Should add that after a couple of ski tours Steve went out and bought all the gear, he just had the little issue that he's not too good in powder, but that does not matter if he does resort ski touring during the winter and then wait till Spring to get away from the piste.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 15-10-19 12:55; edited 1 time in total
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Thanks for all of the replies, very helpful.
I'm spending the month of January in Chamonix, so I think what I'll do it practice on some pistes when I first arrive and then perhaps book into a multi-day course that goes into the back country. I will hopefully be able to join some people on more casual trips at the weekends too.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
conor90 wrote:
Thanks for all of the replies, very helpful.
I'm spending the month of January in Chamonix, so I think what I'll do it practice on some pistes when I first arrive and then perhaps book into a multi-day course that goes into the back country. I will hopefully be able to join some people on more casual trips at the weekends too.
There are secured ski touring climbing trails in Chamonix you can try if they are open.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@conor90, as @davidof says, the actual skinning bit is easy to pick up - but the one that beginners seem to worry about most! Just have a go and you’ll soon pick it up.
The great thing about ski touring is it brings together lots of skills that take some experience to acquire.
Offpiste Skiing: obviously start next to the pistes and then venture further.
Mountain Craft: get out into your local hills - on your own - and have adventures.
Hut Etiquette: join a mountaineering club and go on some weekend trips with them: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/find-a-club
Avalanche Awareness: you can learn rescue skills with any group with the gear but awareness of all the different aspects of snow takes a lifetime - listen to an expert.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@conor90, I'll be in Chamonix all January, and do some touring - more than happy to take you out, and introduce you to some other people too if I can. Drop me a pm closer to the time.
Edit: or for any other tips re. Chamonix. There's also a thread on here with other snowheads who'll be in Chamonix - say hi on there too.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@altis, Thinking about it, and comparing it to everything else you do in skiing, going uphill can't be that difficult!
@fixx, Thanks, I will definitely pm you closer to the time and I'll drop a message in the Chamonix thread. I'm going with a friend who is a very experienced split-boarder, but has never gone in Europe, who would be keen to meet people to go touring with too.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@conor90, the easiest trail I know of around Cham (and I haven't done the Les Houches one, which might be easier) is the one at Le Tour. It is well signed, always well cut, and not too steep. It starts exactly where the resort run ends, next to the gondola. The upper half, from mid station to top of the Autannes chair, is exposed to the end of the runout of an avalanche slope near the top which you need to be able to evaluate.
I'd done maybe a dozen trips before I went with a mate who gave me all kinds of useful tips about more efficient movement and also retaining grip on steep/marginal snow. So whilst I understand the comments of "just put the skins on and go", like many things there's a gulf between doing it, and doing it well. Good people (not me!) can go up much steeper gradients, travel faster for the same level of fitness, and don't trip over their skis whilst kick-turning on steep, icy slopes.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Just remembered another good resource: this DVD from the BMC:
Time constraints are worth considering. Folk living in the mountains have time for a 2 or 3 hour walk (skin) in this way you can build skills steadily. However if on a normal holiday time is short and precious! Under that circumstance take some help from a guide or someone with plenty of experience so as to learn quickly!
Once you become a tourer you will soon spot the the "newcomers" making the most basic mistakes!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@conor90, I started ski touring a couple of years ago by doing a week-long 'Backcountry Access' course with Snoworks. It really only took me a day or two to master the basic skills. As others have said, skinning and kick-turns really aren't rocket science, although I already had plenty of winter mountaineering experience, which helped on the steeper/trickier terrain, plus the hill fitness to enjoy the ascents (I got fed up of listening to people whinging about walking uphill ). Some further days out with guides have helped me to refine the skills e.g. more efficient transitions and skinning technique.
You can do long weekend introductory touring courses with at least a couple of companies in Chamonix, and one of those should be sufficient to master the basic skills.
If you are still a beginner off-piste skier, you will probably find that the main challenge will be skiing back down whatever you've just skinned up, and having to deal with every sort of snow conditions under the sun, dodging rocks, foot bridges, tree skiing, icy paths of death etc etc. So worth building up some more 'off the back of the mountain' off-piste skills and experience.
Do watch @DB 's videos carefully and note "glide" not "lift". Gliding will save energy as they say in the videos, will leave a better trail to follow and helps stop balling on skis, unstuck skins etc. The number of "expert skiers" I see stomping around the place on ski videos...
The kick turn isn't fantastic in the first video - but it is not always easy to demonstrate when being filmed I know. The "chien qui pisse" style for bringing the second leg around can put you a bit off balance, especially on steeper slopes. Instead try and keep the spatula low and rotate is around the boot, less energy, less wild movements, easier on steeper slopes.
On really steep terrain there is a kick turn called the "polka" - like the dance move - which will get your leading ski around without touching the slope in front. If the snow is ok I'll keep my skis on up to around 40 degree slopes using a mix of turns and terrain. However I would advise the OP to use the terrain to avoid steeper slopes if possible. When we lead club groups you will sacrifice a bit of horizontal distance for an easier skin track.
Ski crampons - I always carry them, I hardly ever use them. They are not particularly safe for steep terrain where proper crampons are better (if the snow conditions permit) and are probably most useful on less steep but hard or icy snow. You'll notice guides prefer clients to move from skis to proper crampons if required. I always carry crampons with me. Whatever, always put on ski crampons or crampons before you are forced to by circumstance.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@davidof, and @CathS, all make sound points.
Past season I was ski touring with some La Grave locals and whilst superb skiers, a few of them did have questionable technique when terrain did become more demanding.
When touring on our own with friends I'm very much of the school to try and get up without having to resort to crampons (Billy Big Head), and on the odd occasion that strategy can get me in the pooh (putting crampon on a steep and dropping it etc), as per @davidof's, comment above, if you are at all worried then put them on before you need to, however, the routes that I choose on the whole are such that I will not have to use them but others well might.
When going on more extreme tours with guides, then boot crampons, ice axe, boot packing to ridges etc might well be the order of the day
And yes, you'll be amazed at how many people "stomp" and do not glide, I always say keep the ball of your foot always in contact with the ground.
And even after a good many years I can still feck up on kick turns.
One thing many people find is that they simply can't open their hips up (or one side is not as flexible as the other) and complete the satisfactory "twist" to plant their uphill ski as the all-important downhill ski, and it also might well be not just stiffness of the body but too restrictive clothing.
In this vid Kris, as ever makes that initial twist so easy, what I have to do and advise people who are maybe stiffer on one side, is rather than just twist, take a two or even three swishes on the uphill ski to gain momentum, and you'll be amazed at how that helps swing the ski into the right position!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
DB wrote:
Flicking your ski so that the tip comes up and out of the way is important.
can be seen @ 1:16 in this Clip.
I don't like it. Look at Gav's Kris Eriksonn video for how to bring the trailing leg around correctly (and I prefer his execution to the guide below). The "flicking ski" stuff is because the guy can't do conversion turns correctly - it is a crutch and it prolongs the time you take to make the turn, which is suboptimal. You shouldn't need to do this on every turn, a bad habit to get into.
This old guide gives a better demo of the two principal conversion turns, normal and polka later in the video - the Polka is good for up to around 40 degrees, after that the slope will be too steep to climb on skis.
I don't like it. Look at Gav's Kris Eriksonn video for how to bring the trailing leg around correctly (and I prefer his execution to the guide below). The "flicking ski" stuff is because the guy can't do conversion turns correctly - it is a crutch and it prolongs the time you take to make the turn, which is suboptimal. You shouldn't need to do this on every turn, a bad habit to get into.
I run two sets of skis, the narrower shorter skis are easier with kickturns. With the longer/wider skis I find sometimes I need to do the heel kick especially when it's a deep track otherwise the ski catches. It could be my lack of flexibility (which I'm working on to improve) or that the longer/wider skis have more weight at one end of the ski so the ski catches. In these instances I find it speeds up the turn as I'm not having to fully straighten out my leg and then wait for the tip of the ski to rise to my knee. In the Glenmore Lodge video they show it with and without the flick depending on the return spring of the binding. Even Kris Eriksonn pushes out on the heel (rather than giving it a definite flick) as he makes the turn.
Being able to get somewhere near ballet position 3 helps a lot …..
Last edited by After all it is free on Wed 16-10-19 12:45; edited 1 time in total
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As most know, it does so much depend on the snowpack and the gradient, for instance, I doubt if I'd even be kick turning on the snow/gradient of that Glenmore lodge vid.
Don't think I've ever shared this (that's because I've just put it up) but this was almost a total newbie to ski touring with the guide demonstrating and talking the basics of kick turn, and how to get out of jail if you don't make the swing all the way round, even then the guide experiences a little sink of the pole at a critical stage, almost enough to throw his balance, happens to everyone
Yes what isn't shown in any of the clips is a deep track for the skis to catch on and deep snow where you sometimes sink in once you lift one leg. Ice is another issue as the uphill ski can slide as you lift the downhill ski. This happening while your downhill leg is extended can have you tumbling down the hill (done that, got the T-Shirt and yes I deserved it because I was too stubborn to get the ski crampons out ).
IMHO flicking the ski and bringing the tip closer to the knee (as shown in your last clip) helps clear deeper snow and gives a better position to recover from should the top ski slip or the upper platform become unstable.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DB wrote:
I run two sets of skis, the narrower shorter skis are easier with kickturns. With the longer/wider skis I find sometimes I need to do the heel kick especially when it's a deep track otherwise the ski catches.
that's an interesting point. At the end of the day you've got to go with what works for you on the slope and conditions that you find.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Some good points above.
Lots of nice YouTube tutorials. It's one of those things you can overthink. As seen with the kickturn discussion above, there are more than one way to skin a cat.
Skinning up a reasonable incline is quite straightforward and intuitive. Things can get a little more difficult when conditions are unfavorable and steeper and you need kickturns. As a beginner you should be in fairly low risk environments so mucking up a kickturn and it taking 3 or 4 attempts is not really a big deal.
I've never had a real lesson. Have had pointers from others I've toured with (going with more experienced people is a great way to learn). I know my technique is not particularly good, I'm sure I could I prove efficiency a lot, but get up most things ok. Of course it depends on your goals, if you want to do huge days covering lots of ground and elevation being more efficient is important.
If you want a big head start get working on your fitness now, it will be a big help. Also practice transitions (I found as a beginner this was the thing that made me slower than the others, much more so than the uphill).
Practicing on one of the prepared uphill routes once in Chamonix is not a bad idea. However, personally I think it might be a little soul destroying skinning up when there's lifts right there. Also for me the enjoyment of touring is getting away from the lifts and people. So by all means practice there, but remember actual touring is a different experience.
If you are still a beginner off-piste skier, you will probably find that the main challenge will be skiing back down whatever you've just skinned up, and having to deal with every sort of snow conditions under the sun, dodging rocks, foot bridges, tree skiing, icy paths of death etc etc. So worth building up some more 'off the back of the mountain' off-piste skills and experience.
This is good advice. When in resort I try to ski offpiste regardless of how crappy the offpiste conditions are (so long as they are not that bad that I will damage myself or my equipment). When ski touring and the snow turns out to be bad then there's rarely a get out of jail free card, in most cases you have to ski it. Often you experience many different types of snow on the same descent. The increased backpack weight can upset your skiing, squats on a BOSU with a heavy backpack can help.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I don't know about France, but in Austria there are huts that open in ski areas that have since closed, and are therefore only reachable by tourers. These are great places to learn as you are skinning up a walking path or old piste (may still be bashed) so it won't be very steep, and then lunch is available when you arrive. To get back down, you simply follow the piste or track down again.
If you want to have fast transitions, I recommend Whizz skins. I may not be the fastest tourer, but I can make up ten minutes on the transition as my skins are so quick to change. The only issue I had once was when I got snow in my frame binding and couldn't get it to click back down without someone else holding it in place, but I'll probably change those soon anyway.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Lots of great advice here, thanks!
On the off piste comments - I agree and my main goal is to improve here. I spent three weeks in January this year in Chamonix working on that, skiing mostly off piste even when the conditions were terrible, as this is where I begin to struggle. This coming January the plan is to add some touring to the mix - I felt left out when the people I was with headed of touring on the weekend and I couldn't join them.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@conor90, great question, prompted a lot of useful input. If you _do_ go out with friends, have an honest conversation beforehand on objectives, fitness levels etc - SO and I are 'relatively' fit compared to the average population (club runners etc), and we were hopelessly outclassed on our last organised tour with 'reasonable' ski tourers who probably tour every weekend, and have lightweight kit. Fortunately there was a 2nd guide, who could escort us and deal with kit issues. This was due to a combination of us not really reading the tour brochure properly, and having paid to do a trip, not really wanting to drop out (as financial implications for all concerned).
Don't let this put you off though - we had a great day, but the fitness difference becomes quite marked after a couple of hours climbing!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) or experienced friend.
It will also give you half an idea of how few clothes you need on the way up, thin layers being the key.
). Some further days out with guides have helped me to refine the skills e.g. more efficient transitions and skinning technique.
).
