D12 - Le Petit Bornand - road & skiing

A snowHead

Hello,

We currently live in Hong Kong but moved across from Geneva 7 years ago. Our goal is to move back to live there, but move more into the mountains. Our requirements are decent size house as there's 4 of us, 2 adults & 3 year old twins and three dogs. We want a decent size garden and to be reasonably close to some decent skiing. When we lived in Geneva we'd typically end up around Morzine & only went to La Clusaz once for ski joering.

We've found a place thats on the D12 in Le Petit-Bornand-les-Glières which is very tempting and would suit us nicely, however it's on the D12. The road is apparently quite busy, but its hard to know how busy it would actually be throughout the year and on a day to day basis.

Does any one have any comments on this area in terms of traffic, community, schooling and general living? Also guessing there is reasonable skiing around La Clusaz and can probably ski into other regions easily? We had considered Seytroux / Saint Jean d'Aulps area but this place is really attractive for our needs.

Thanks in advance,

Nick

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Hey David,

Thanks for your reply, my intention is to work from home (as we don't have an office in Geneva / Switzerland / France at present) with occasional trips overseas. So driving to and from Geneva isn't a massive concern.

I'm not sure how good the 'local' schools would be - they'd be 5 going on 6 when we arrived so figuring potentially 5 years before we need to worry about college level. My wife is a teacher and would look for work but at present we have no specific locations in mind for her to work. She currently works in a local school here in Hong Kong so a local school potentially would be fine.

I have considered Brexit but I don't think any one really knows what the impact will be....? Unless you have any insights into this, I was figuring that a self employed person coming to work and pay taxes in your country, with money to buy a chalet etc would be unlikely to be turned away or refused a visa? I may be wrong about that though....?

So my considerations were 1) the schools & how easy it'd be for the kids at this stage 2) how good the local ski zones would be 3) how busy the road is, as we don't want to live on a a really busy road!! The other consideration was internet connection but having spoken to quite a few people they've suggested that mobile internet is very good and the introduction of 5g should be relatively soon. If we could get a fibre optic connection that would be preferable but not the end of the world.

Sorry - I should have made the above clearer in my post.

Where would you be recommending to live?

Thanks

Nick

PS. I used to work in Geneva and work in Gaillard, not entirely sure what happened to my visa when I left 7 years ago but would imagine the accountants dealt with it and its either lapsed or returned due to moving to Hong Kong.

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Used to work in Geneva & live in Gaillard***

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Ok that's clearer. I can only say that it is not too bad to drive to Geneva, I've never lived in the village but it is a nice spot. Most recently I was there on a Saturday (out of season) and there was traffic - like cars going by all the time but it was not excessive. I wouldn't necessarily want to live on the road though. There is someone on this site who lives in le Grand Bornand who might reply.

Is there a reason you want to be that near Geneva?

I can't see the local schools being an issue at your children's age. If you will be there at College / Lycée age I would look into that in detail. The public school system, esp University and Lycée level is severely underfunded and there are a lot of problems generally in France but things may evolve in a positive direction. There have just been big educational reforms which are causing the problems.

As you say, no-one yet knows anything about the situation post-Brexit, if it ever happens.

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I think summer traffic might be your bigger challenge.
A while back, I used to go up and down that road to get to some of the via ferrattas near Thones and St Jean de Sixt.
IIRC the summer traffic was worse, as there were lots of other things in the area that drew people from both Annecy and Chamonix

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Laserblues2, Our friends @gvj live in Le Petit Bornand. In case he doesn't see your post for a while, I will drop him a quick message and ask if he can give you some pointers.

After all it is free

@Laserblues2, Have been in touch with @gvj who will be back with more regular wifi on 16th and able to give you his thoughts then, if not before.

Davidof - where would you recommend? There's no necessity to be 'that close' to Geneva, but no necessity to be miles away either. If I do fly out every 4 to 6 weeks, then a 40 minute to 1 hour commute would be alright.

SBP - would you mind if I asked, why is it much busier in the summer? What activities or draws are there for people from Annecy / Chamonix?

Great, thank you loatie - look forward to hearing from gvj! Thanks for all your help and advice

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Mountain biking, klettersteig/via ferrata, hill walking, nature trails. anything outdoor and hilly, etc etc
Even before you add exotic things like paragliding, rock climbing, canyoning,
During the summer the barriers for entry to the mountains are much lower/less expensive.
Chamonix is busier during the summer and there is always overspill/drift from locals/others who seek less touristy areas

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Ummmm ... I'm a bit confused, because although you say you want to return to Geneva, you're talking about living in France. Initially, I thought you were going to ask about living in the Vaud or Valais. I'd make two comments.

The first is about Brexit and the uncertainty over what this means for a Brit who wants residence in France and the tax regime that will emerge, which is high i.e. this could be exactly the wrong time to move to France as a Brit. It might turn out fine, but there are some fairly negative scenarios as well. If we No Deal, then all bets are off in terms of the current benign regime for Brits in the EU. If we exit with a Deal, we still face 2 years of negotiations on the new relationship. And even if we Remain, I think there could be fallout - things won't be the same. Much less uncertainty if you moved to Switzerland. But this is just my viewpoint.

The second is that I just wonder if you've considered living somewhere more urban in Switzerland? Central Geneva and the Lac Lémain lakeside are obviously very pricey, but what about Lausanne (much more an international, university town) or similar? Or somewhere in the Rhone valley like Martigny or Sion? Such locations are very central for short drives out to loads of ski resorts and on the railway network. Isn't LPBdG going to be a lot more, sort of, mountain-y? i.e. with a very quiet spring and autumn low season, and neither urban nor resort. Just some thoughts.

Caveat: I'm obviously biased, as we have had a holiday home in CH for 16 years. And have just been told by our bank that if we wanted, we'd have no trouble getting a 'B' Residence permit, which would allow us to buy a place outside a tourist area. This partly because the Cantons get a capitation for each resident - so someone financially independent who is also bringing assets in is very welcome, as it's a net gain for the Canton. But someone else on the Forum who is in France could probably make a good case for residing there - I'll leave that up to them.

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@Laserblues2, a few of ex-Hong Kongers (including ourselves) have bought in Les Carroz in the Grand Massif. It has a school in the village that they attend until senior school when they move down to Cluses. Good skiing, an hour to Geneva airport for flight connections. Easy to avoid the main road when buying. Ther are lots of real village sin and around the area. We looked at somewhere in Le Grand Bornand as well, but the proximity to the road put us off 16 years ago.

You know it makes sense.

LaForet, sorry I thought that had been cleared up - apologies. I used to live in Gaillard (right next to the border) and work in Geneva. We now live in Hong Kong and have for 7 years and would love to move back to the Alps. I have changed company and we do not have offices in Geneva or Switzerland or anywhere in the region so I would be working from home and travelling as & when necessary. We don't fancy being in the town, the intention was to move up into the mountains.

Given there is no idea about Brexit either way - it's hard to know what will happen. I can't see the French wanting to turn people away if they have capital / income, and I would imagine it'll just be a case of getting a visa. I can't see either how they would tax a foreigner differently?

Davidof - I'll take a look, would be happy to move across to the Italian side but not sure the wife would be keen as she was planning on being on the french side. If it made sense then I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue. Turin isn't as international an airport as Geneva tho, I don't believe? So presumably international flights would be harder - will look into that and see.

Cheesie168 - thanks, will have a look. I've been looking for properties for a while and just found this place. Thought it looked perfect for our requirements, but was told about the 'busy' road so thats why I was trying to find out more about it

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Laserblues2, Hi. We’ve lived in Petit Bo for the last few years so if there’s anything you want to know about the village - or the house you’re considering, just ask. We think it’s a great position for the Aravis and GVA access. You can always PM me.

A snowHead

Working from home when "based" in Switzerland is not as simple as one might think.
If you also live in CH I think it's easier, but as a frontalier, it seems that there are some restrictions on attendance.
A friend worked in GVA and was allowed to work from home 25% of the time.
At UEFA you are allowed to work from home 64 days per year as a frontalier.
As for Tax - in Canton Vaud where I work (Nyon), you pay income tax where you reside so for me that's France.
For Geneve - you pay income tax in Geneve.
In both cases you will need to pay social contributions (10% of salary) to CNTFS to cover minimum French healthcare (SECU), as well as LAMAL (Swiss insurance). You are free to take a mutuelle or hybrid frontalier insurance over and above that.
It was pretty easy getting a Swiss work permit G as a UK national (presumably due to UK being in the EU/EEA), and I am reasonably confident that some arrangement will be put in place to facilitate UK nationals working in Switzerland, whatever happens at the end of October / January / Some other time.

A snowHead

@laserblues2 No need to apologise - it was me being slow. Just a question (no need to answer if you don't want to give too much away on a public forum) but are you still domiciled in the UK or not? If you are, then I don't think you can ignore the potential Brexit fallout (whatever happens) but if you're not, then I would imagine you have much more leeway about where to locate. Obviously, something that I'm sure you'll talk to your tax advisor about.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I left the UK in 2005 and haven't been back for more than a week or so at a time. I used to live in France (not sure if that would help me, and Germany for a couple of years as well as Cyprus for a few years) so have been an EU resident for around 7 years since 2005. I have no idea what'll happen (as I'm sure no one including Boris knows...) but it wouldn't make sense for them to prevent people who'll bring income into the country to come. I'd imagine it'll just be a case of applying for visa's etc.

I do wonder about living somewhere more 'urban' but love the idea of being in a village or community in the mountains. The appeal of this place was it's proximity to Geneva / Annecy if there was a necessity to be there, and not too far from the lake. Another option would be to live in an Evian type area and then maybe have a small ski apartment instead

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@Laserblues2, assuming you are British citizens, you will lose the right to freedom of movement after Brexit. Which means you can only spend 90 days within a rolling 180-day period as tourists in the EU.

Applications for residence/work permits for UK citizens will be the same as for other third country nationals, and varies between EU countries. On the whole you will need qualifications in a shortage industry and a firm job offer, plus no criminal record, ideally aged under 35 and good language skills. British citizens will not acquire any additional rights due to being British.

Either that or move before Brexit happens.

British citizens living in the EU know precisely what will happen after Brexit, we have been kept well informed by the governments of our host nations.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I suppose I'm echoing @queenie's point, namely that you can't assume France will be happy to welcome a UK citizen for residence, even if they are bringing funds into the country. As with any migrants, the net overall, long-term balance has to work in the host country's favour. People have grown used to Freedom of Movement's associated benefits and reciprocal arrangements: all these could well disappear, and not long after you relocate to France, you might find that the residence 'package' in another Alpine country actually looks much better. Or that the best option is just to come back to the UK and buy a holiday home in the Alps etc. It all depends on what your residence conditions turn out to be, post-Brexit. (Two Caveats: I'm not trying to put you off, just emphasising the likely impact of Brexit, but I'm no expert, so I might be overstating the issue).

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What if you're self employed and have income, will not be working or taking a local job? I don't really know how that changes things or works. My parents live in Cyprus, so not too sure how that would work if we decided to live with them? Or would we not be allowed to live with them?

My wife is a teacher, so would potentially be looking for work but thats undecided at present.

Who knows when Brexit will happen - which is another slight issue! Maybe we would have to live across the border in Switzerland if it came to it...

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

@Laserblues2, if Brexit happens then applying for a work permit as a self employed person is pretty difficult AIUI. Certainly for Austria each case is decided on an individual basis and the successes are usually start-ups in shortage industries, especially those that bring employment opportunities to the host country. Your particular circumstances would be unlikely to succeed in Austria, but I can't say for certain about France, the criteria there may be different. Your parents will need to apply for residence permits in Cyprus after Brexit, of course this is far easier for existing residents than for new applicants. If they are retired they will no longer qualify for free healthcare so they will need to pay for and show proof of adequate health insurance. You would be a new applicant if you decided to live with them post-Brexit.

After all it is free

Hi @Laserblues2, I think I may have missed a call from you the other day. I'll PM you. We're now back in P'tit Bo if you want to chat.

Help!!

D12 - Le Petit Bornand - road & skiing

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