 Poster: A snowHead
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Ski Club of Great Britain announces new in-resort representation service
- Changes to Leading Service as well as a raft of membership developments in the pipeline -
The Ski Club of Great Britain, the largest and oldest snow-sports membership organisation in the UK, with over 26,000 Members, has today announced developments to the Ski Club’s membership offering for the 2019/20 season and beyond.
From Winter 2019/20, the Ski Club will replace its Leading Service with a new representation (“rep”) service, with a continued focus on facilitating social skiing for Members across around 30 top resorts around the world. Ski Club reps will continue to create a community for Ski Club Members in resort; delivering a weekly programme of social events, promoting and facilitating social skiing, encouraging and helping with the Ski Club’s Instructor-led Guiding service or mountain guide bookings, offering advice on restaurants, arranging après spots, providing advice on equipment, and assisting with any issues in resort. Reps are free to ski with Members in a social capacity but will no longer be acting as a leader on snow. The Instructor-led Guiding programme in our French resorts will continue unchanged.
Of this change, Ian Holt, Chief Executive Ski Club of Great Britain, said: “We have made this change following a detailed consultation period within the organisation. In the current climate, it is clear that leading groups both on- and off-piste without the appropriate instructor or mountain guide qualification is no longer prudent. Whilst perhaps disappointing to some, this is an opportunity for the Ski Club to ensure our presence in the mountains can develop further, enabling the Ski Club to promote and protect safe, enjoyable and inspiring snow-sports experiences for anyone who loves snow and the mountains.”
Ian adds: “We are delighted that our reps will continue to act as the focal point for our Members in resort, ensuring that our Members have the most enjoyable time possible on their holidays with the Ski Club. With no fixed programmes, our Members will experience a more social setting, skiing together as friends would do, no matter how big or small the group. We are confident that this new service will appeal to our Members and potential new Members alike.”
Alongside the introduction of the representation service and a renewed focus on social skiing, the Ski Club of Great Britain is planning an exciting Partnership programme providing unique offers to Members and an enhanced Events programme to bring together Members both across the UK and in the mountains. Specific details will be announced in the coming months.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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an odd headline for the OP as I read it they have eliminated all their Ski Club Leaders
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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We were always told that leaders were not reps.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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call em what you like but "Leaders" led club members as well as did social meet-ups and promoted membership.
"Reps are free to ski with Members in a social capacity but will no longer be acting as a leader on snow."
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Sounds as if DG has taken charge.
More seriously, the crux is "...in the current climate". It's those blasted lawyer people, possibly combined with Insurer reluctance, who have brought this about. We would all like to do what was done in the 50s and 60s but it takes only one bit of bad luck every 5 years or so and the Courts can turn wholesome helpfulness into a criminal act.
The interesting question is to what extent the Reps will be skiing with Members in a "social capacity ". Lots , I hope, just not at the front.
Will there be a gag on Reps ( aka Leaders) commenting on here ?
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| Farley Goode wrote: |
Sounds as if DG has taken charge.
More seriously, the crux is "...in the current climate". It's those blasted lawyer people, possibly combined with Insurer reluctance, who have brought this about. We would all like to do what was done in the 50s and 60s but it takes only one bit of bad luck every 5 years or so and the Courts can turn wholesome helpfulness into a criminal act.
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Yep, "In the current climate, it is clear that leading groups both on- and off-piste without the appropriate instructor or mountain guide qualification is no longer prudent." The SCGB finally bowing to the inevitable.
"Ski Club reps will continue to create a community for Ski Club Members in resort; delivering a weekly programme of social events, promoting and facilitating social skiing, encouraging and helping with the Ski Club’s Instructor-led Guiding service or mountain guide bookings." So basically not that dissimilar to what some UK tour operator reps do?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 2-07-19 14:16; edited 1 time in total
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| bolderz wrote: |
| We were always told that leaders were not reps. |
Wasn't the official line that we weren't to call them reps but refer to them as leaders? https://www.skiclub.co.uk/ski-club-leaders
Seems to be a 180 degree U-turn (hopefully carved not skidded  )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For many years the SCGB didn't have a leader/rep (whatever you want to call 'em) in St. Anton as I believe the head of the local ski school took objection to the SCGB leading members round the ski area. If they're now going to be employing local instructors/guides for that role in future then presumably St.Anton might be back on the SCGB list of "repped " resorts?
Edit: Yes it looks like St.Anton is back on the list with Instructor Led Guiding. £35 for a full day if booked in advance online, €45 full day if booked in resort.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 2-07-19 15:08; edited 1 time in total
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| "Reps are free to ski with Members in a social capacity but will no longer be acting as a leader on snow." |
Wonder what the law in various countries has to say about that in the event of a bad accident. If someone is de facto 'in charge', and presumably wearing a Rep's uniform, then the thin line between leading and just being social is ever so thin, if there at all.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Maybe they should call them 'escorts'?
They might get an up-lift in members... *cough*
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
Maybe they should call them 'escorts'?
They might get an up-lift in members... *cough* |
I think Ski Bunnies already has that market cornered.....
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You know it makes sense.
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So this goes one of 2 ways as I see it
- Business as usual with the cunning proviso that the rep goes second or later in any skiing. Nod and a wink to legality but members are told , presumably through some informal undocumented mechanism, it is as you were.
or
- Value of "rep" service further reduced unless you really aren't capable of finding a bar or a rental shop or reading a piste map.
First seems fraught with difficulties, second the value proposition is really as a matchmaking agency. The latter obviously works with snowheads self matchmaking on bashes. Not sure it would work so well with a middleman officially "organising". Can't see how it's a sell to any non- members. Another nail in the coffin?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Farley Goode wrote: |
Sounds as if DG has taken charge.
More seriously, the crux is "...in the current climate". It's those blasted lawyer people, possibly combined with Insurer reluctance, who have brought this about. |
It probably needed to be 'brought about'. Looking back I can barely believe I followed a full-time dentist [and unqualified ski guide] into dangerous off-piste terrain. How they ever believed they were qualified to guide off-piste is beyond me, though it is a shame that they can't be allowed to guide on-piste.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Dave of the Marmottes, think you sum it up quite well. I fear it's the last nail.
@jellylegs, nothing wrong with consenting adults deciding on their own risk appetite... no-one was forcing you to follow a dentist.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@jellylegs, I think the problem is because of official status - truly peer to peer would be fine and even in the context of a club, members agreeing to guide each other would be. But appoint someone to an official role and you create the problem.
No reason a dentist couldn't safely guide you off piste just that you'd be relying on your own judegement of his competence and decision making when deciding to follow him. A qualification isn't a prophylactic barrier, no piece of paper has ever stopped an avalanche or crevasse fall or slide over a cliff.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Apparently reps cannot wear official jackets when skiing with “friends” but can when on nannying duties......
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@skilegs, I'd just like to thank you for your many years of ski repping service in the past with the SCGB, and your excellent repping and leading on my first week in Wengen almost 20 years ago which led me (as you know) to become a Wengen regular. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gotta love the French.
Forcing out the foreign competition in their tourist hotspots.
And gotta love the Brits.
Abandoning all hope and collapsing at the first sign of foreign competition.
SCGB should partner with independent British or American ski instructors in the world's top 30 resorts.
For example, partner with that Angus dood who blogs on the Val thread here every winter.
Give him a shiny SCGB jacket and some cash and get him to ski folks around.
If SCGB do nothing, they're toast.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Pruman wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| "Reps are free to ski with Members in a social capacity but will no longer be acting as a leader on snow." |
Wonder what the law in various countries has to say about that in the event of a bad accident. If someone is de facto 'in charge', and presumably wearing a Rep's uniform, then the thin line between leading and just being social is ever so thin, if there at all. |
Across the Alpine countries the law is that the responsibility falls on the most experienced skier in the group, not automatically the person in front.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 2-07-19 16:39; edited 1 time in total
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I normally find little with which to disagree on with DOTM, but here, as tempting as it is to help paint the negative picture, I think he may be underestimating the appeal...
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
Value of "rep" service further reduced unless you really aren't capable of finding a bar or a rental shop or reading a piste map.
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Actually while you or I might take delight in 'sniffing out' a decent bar for ourselves, some people really do want to just be told where to go. Similarly, I suspect you would far prefer to get the feel of a shop, and its staff, when deciding whether to hire kit from them. Many folk will just assume that whoever is doing the recommending will be sending them to Ski Set for reasons other than the commission they pay and not even consider nor care about their general evilness.
| Quote: |
First seems fraught with difficulties, second the value proposition is really as a matchmaking agency. The latter obviously works with snowheads self matchmaking on bashes. Not sure it would work so well with a middleman officially "organising". |
Again, it's tempting to accept this flatteringly-put comparison but...
SnowHeads are not normal... U know that!
We are most fortunate to have found/formed ourselves this flourishing collective, the vast majority of whom are quite capable (and most willing) to think for themselves... and to look out for each other!
U know as well as I do that this behaviour is not a given amongst holidaymakers, or skiers generally and while there is obviously a large crossover between SCGB members and snowHeads, the sets are not the same. There are, I'm sure, many SCGB members who have yet to realise that they'd enjoy the 'beautiful anarchy' of a bash more than the 'enforced formality' of a Fresh Tracks group (a comparison once drawn by achiles), but there are certainly a great many SCGB members with whom the format really wouldn't sit well
The bashes are run under the principle that the snowHeads on them, are capable of and enjoy independent behaviour. Not only do they not need someone to introduce them to each other, attempts to contrive such enforced sociality would, in all likelihood, be mocked.
And yet singles clubs exist, speed dating exists, networking events and organisations exist... some people just like to be led.
Frankly, far from seeing the Tea Club's continued existence to be indicative of any failure on snowHeads' part (as implied by davidof recently), I'm quite grateful to them for being there to lead around that demographic who require it... I've even sent one or two their way who were clearly looking for more hand-holding than they'd be likely to get on a bash and while I'm always happy to help anyone out, I certainly wouldn't want to spend my Winter showing people where the hire shop is!
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...@admin, and therein lies the rub.... there is a broad continuum of 'on snow lead' activities, ranging from (roughly) tour-operator 'repping' at one end, through (in no particular order), tea club, 'bash', friends trips, small ski trips, Eagles, through to solo expedition.... the lawyer-lead removal of part of that continuum will represent a gap, that will either get filled by an as yet undefined service (or combination, e.g. freshtracks trips expanding, and 'bashes' likewise), or it will remain unfilled, representing a gap in the experience and options of both skiers and the leaders.
we will, I'm sure, adapt - but it would be un-British not to at least moan and wail for a bit into our cups of tea, and malign the lawyers (and that section of society who think all problems can be solved by litigation rather than personal risk-acceptance).
Maybe in years to come we'll look back on this decision in the same way we look back at John Noakes climbing Nelsons column on a ladder back in the 70's, without hi-viz or helmet, much less any remotely mandatory safety equipment (the video clip was doing the rounds on FB).
I'll certainly miss the leading service, and the very pleasant holidays I've been on as leaders SO....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Across the Alpine countries the law is that the responsibility falls on the most experienced skier in the group, not automatically the person in front.
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@Gerry, this is presumably a topic on which you have particular experience & insight - but how does that "experience" get determined in a group of all reasonably experienced skiers?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Quote: |
Across the Alpine countries the law is that the responsibility falls on the most experienced skier in the group, not automatically the person in front.
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@Gerry, this is presumably a topic on which you have particular experience & insight - but how does that "experience" get determined in a group of all reasonably experienced skiers? |
A strong and experienced skier has a high duty of care towards a novis, for example, while guides perhaps have the highest duty of care. Someone with 2 weeks of skiing doesn't have a high duty of care over someone with one week. The authorities don't seem to bother with prosecutions where there's no clear duty of care, from what I've seen anyway.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 2-07-19 17:20; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Someone who has completed a Ski Leader course might stand out a bit here?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Gerry, oh, OK so a degree of common sense then.
I had in mind a certain situation where the riders had all skied extensively since about 4-5 y.o. and defining "experienced" would have been tricky.
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| bolderz wrote: |
| Someone who has completed a Ski Leader course might stand out a bit here? |
They are probably a lot safer though than the average though. The Club's safety record is very good.
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You know it makes sense.
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Have been an SCGB member for many years. This I think is the nail in the coffin
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Gerry wrote: |
A strong and experienced skier has a high duty of care towards a novis, for example, while guides perhaps have the highest duty of care. Someone with 2 weeks of skiing doesn't have a high duty of care over someone with one week. The authorities don't seem to bother with prosecutions where there's no clear duty of care, from what I've seen anyway. |
So only reps who are hopeless bumfluff newbies can ski "socially" with members and not fall foul of this then? End of the gravy train?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
@Gerry, oh, OK so a degree of common sense then.
I had in mind a certain situation where the riders had all skied extensively since about 4-5 y.o. and defining "experienced" would have been tricky. |
I always believed so. There is a small-ish group of ex-Leaders who have helped drive this and to them if you show them a law like that they will simply insist that a two week skier has a massive duty of care over a one week one and could go to prison.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mark1863 wrote: |
| Have been an SCGB member for many years. This I think is the nail in the coffin |
Bit extreme. Why do you think that?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've had some great off piste skiing with SCGB leaders some years ago on my many trips to Argentiere, but the recent restrictions and latest changes were always inevitable.
Although I preferred to ski off piste or tour with my climbing mates, they weren't always around and SCGB provided a good way to ski in a group off piste. In Argentiere the leaders usually conformed to their rules over distance they could venture from pistes, staying well clear of glaciated terrain, and the awareness of terrain in deciding where not to go depending on aspect, loading etc - the sort of knowledge one would expect from an experienced off piste skier or climber who knows an area well. Coming from a climbing and occasional mountaineering background I was maybe more tuned into these things than other members of the group (most of whom were better skiers than me). However I was aware of some exceptions, eg a leader (without scgb jacket) taking a group down Argentiere glacier. What worried me most was the lack of mountain awareness of the other SCGB members in the led group, eg having to borrow avi gear from SCGB and implicitly not practiced in using it . I think this highlights the real or perceived capability gap between a SCGB leader and that of a qualified instructor/guide - being able to manage a non-peer group in a crisis? Some of the posters on this thread are current or ex leaders and I'm happy to be contradicted on this.
When I joined SCGB I had hoped it would be a good way to get to know and trust a network of mutually capable OP skiing partners to enjoy non-guided days out in areas we were familiar with, but with a small number of exceptions the members don't seem to share this aspiration -they would rather be led by a SCGB leader or ILG guide. (I realise a Snowheads off piste bash may be a better avenue for this type of networking but I would need more options re dates etc) For a while the SCGB didn't help by refusing to facilitate peer to peer messaging on their forum, only belatedly being dragged into the Facebook age. In Argentiere there was a good SCGB apres ski evening (usually Office Bar) after a good day's skiing. However in other resorts this was not so after ILG days. In the first year of ILG I felt sorry for the poor French instructor who was duty bound to attend the social venue to engender social activities but nobody turned up.
So I think the new re-branded SCGB reps may have an uphill struggle getting members to ski together when many of them won't be keen unless they are led. I understand Val d'Isere is an exception and that works with help of SCGB seasonaires rather than a SCGB Leader. Surely the Reps wont be pairing up members who don't know each other to go off skiing off piste together?
it can't be possible justify the cost of putting Reps in resort with their expenses, not to mention an apparent bloated head office set up funded by subscriptions which already seem too high for not adding anything worthwhile to a skiing holiday.
So what now is the purpose of SCGB? Only Freshtracks and ILG ? My membership has lapsed because I have found Snoworks to be more consistent than Freshtracks, but I may re-subscribe if something in the new brochure catches my eye, similar if I fancy a couple of days ILG on a holiday.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| admin wrote: |
Again, it's tempting to accept this flatteringly-put comparison but...
attempts to contrive such enforced sociality would, in all likelihood, be mocked.
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Flattery is in the eye of the beholder, I was thinking more of the latter 
Fair point on the some people just like to be led and go with the flow if someone else is taking the decisions.
On further reflection I see that what happens is that SCGB just turns itself into even more of a tour operator or middleman organising paid pros for ad hoc groups. Either that or enough rebel reps split off and form their own network where they can guide uninsured without censure.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, "rebel reps split off and form their own network where they can guide uninsured without censure. "... you may be onto something here...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| hamilton wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, "rebel reps split off and form their own network where they can guide uninsured without censure. "... you may be onto something here... |
Struggle to see how this wouldn’t - very swiftly - result in legal action...
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@under a new name, Exactly - but it's an option for those old skool reps who want to live the good ole days of super chaps before the elfinsafety gorn mad brigade ruined skiing. Think Hell's Angels - living outside the law but dealing in G&T rather than meth and corduroys rather than leather kecks.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| @under a new name, Exactly - but it's an option for those old skool reps who want to live the good ole days of super chaps |
Some are great blokes too you know.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I can see the "social skiing" aspect working for on-piste groups. It is surprising how many people have no idea of where they are on the mountain, and if skiing on their own would stand a good chance of ending the day in the wrong valley. And it may suit mixed ability couples / groups, where one is in lessons and the other wants to meet up with others of similar ability.
But it may be the end for off-piste excursions (other than simple off-the-side stuff).
| Gerry wrote: |
| Across the Alpine countries the law is that the responsibility falls on the most experienced skier in the group, not automatically the person in front. |
Quite surprised at this. It would suggest that someone joining a "led" SCGB group in the past could have been held to be more experienced than the "leader", and so responsible for the group 
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| AL9000 wrote: |
| Mark1863 wrote: |
| Have been an SCGB member for many years. This I think is the nail in the coffin |
Bit extreme. Why do you think that? |
Nail in the coffin for me not necessarily the SCGB. It will not be providing anything I want as a member. So why be a member. I have a 4-digit membership number so gradual drip feed of less and less delivery has taken a long time to force me to come to my decision today to cancel my DD. Cease to be a member in October.
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FAQ
