 Poster: A snowHead
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My sister recently mentioned that a friend's skiing had come on in leaps and bounds after some lessons - specifically where the turn is initiated by flexing the downhill knee, advancing slightly, whilst straightening the uphill knee. I'm not sure if I've interpreted that properly but can anyone explain this technique. How does this action bring about a turn and when would this technique be put to use?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ummmm I dunno ...but please enlighten me when you find out..... last I checked my knees flex in a fore/aft direction.... which is not where I want to go to start a turn..... and i think I could traverse quite happily alternately lifting feet.... this matches one italian instructors idea though - he insists the ONLY movements in a turn are flexion and extension.....
I tend to feel I need to do more than flex my knees.... feet and ankles feel important to my skiing, and hips/femurs.... but then my perceptions are skewy....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hywel, I think what she means is that she was encouraged to extend her upper leg and press on her uphill big toe - thus softening the (until then) supporting/downhill leg. It doesn't really matter how she relates to the movements as long as it works for her.
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IMVHO (because it's just clicked with me!) it sounds to me like it's just another way of saying move your hips out of the mountain over the old downhill leg as you initiate the turn. Effect = engage new edges sooner (well before the fall line), particularly the shovel, which gives you more control of the turn and hence speed. As easiski says, there are many ways to describe the movement and it doesn't matter which description clicks so long as one does! Is that what the Americans are calling "crossover/under"?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Carving at higher speeds on-piste, letting the inside leg collaspe in a controlled fashion while leaving the outside leg to take the weight works for me.
Start off straight-lining down the piste until you pick up a bit of speed then let one leg collaspe allowing your hip to fall towards the snow at right angles to your bindings but keeping your upperbody as straight as possible and you will turn in that direction. It's not on/off but a continual swapping of weight from one leg to the other by a controlled collasping of the inside leg (inside of the turn) and coressponding extension of the outside leg. On modern skis just keep centered over the skis and move directly across the skis. Just do the movements at different speeds (of collasping movement) at first and see where it takes you (try to avoid other skiers, trees, rocks & apres ski bars though). Then you will get a feel for how slow/quick you need to cross over for the required turn size.
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On a GS course I did last year we were working on increasing our angulation in order to carve a clean, fast line through the gates. For some people, focusing on getting the hips well across the skis into the turn was a effective drill, but for me concentrating on sucking my inside knee up towards my chest seemed to be better. This, I suppose, is a more extreme version of knee flexing/inside leg collapsing (it needed to be quicker and more pronounced than I would normally ski on piste), and on the few occasions when it all came together it really transformed my speed and control.
Although my focus was on my inside knee, the principal effect was to increase the edge angle on my outside ski, which enabled a shorter radius turn. This meant I could carve with my edges rather than force the turn through pressure. The feedback from the skis was immediate when it worked: a clean line, much better grip on the ice (no chattering of the skis), and I felt more in control. I've been trying to work on this during the rest of the season when skiing on piste, and it's made a big difference to my carving abilities.
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If I only flex my knees then it is not easy to do a clean gs turn..... I kind of need to move my hips forward and pronate/supinate the feet and a heap of other stuff...
If I do an Inside Leg Extension transition then I need to slightly pressure the uphill ski by extending in that leg but to also supinate the downhill foot as the legs extend and flex to help control the speed of (??? downhillness???) ..... (pronation happens due to natural increase of pressure due to turn development so that edge is taken care of at top of turn)
If I do an Outside leg relaxation transition then I need to still supinate and also to pronate the NEW outside foot to get early edge working....(or it feels as though I need to pronate whilst the ILE does it for me)
Now the italian guy I just had lessons with spent hours berating me for just sending my hips side to side and not forward into the turn.... and i need to do more than flex a leg to get hips forward.....
AND then there is the issue of my shoulder not getting into the right spot to weight my ski tip.... and flexing my knee sure does not seem to make that happen either....
anyone want to tell me how these knee flexions do all that stuff? I can't grasp it at all.... if I flex my knees they do not do a heap for me.... am I flexing wrong?
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| little tiger wrote: |
If I only flex my knees then it is not easy to do a clean gs turn..... I kind of need to move my hips forward and pronate/supinate the feet and a heap of other stuff...
If I do an Inside Leg Extension transition then I need to slightly pressure the uphill ski by extending in that leg but to also supinate the downhill foot as the legs extend and flex to help control the speed of (??? downhillness???) ..... (pronation happens due to natural increase of pressure due to turn development so that edge is taken care of at top of turn)
If I do an Outside leg relaxation transition then I need to still supinate and also to pronate the NEW outside foot to get early edge working....(or it feels as though I need to pronate whilst the ILE does it for me)
Now the italian guy I just had lessons with spent hours berating me for just sending my hips side to side and not forward into the turn.... and i need to do more than flex a leg to get hips forward.....
AND then there is the issue of my shoulder not getting into the right spot to weight my ski tip.... and flexing my knee sure does not seem to make that happen either....
anyone want to tell me how these knee flexions do all that stuff? I can't grasp it at all.... if I flex my knees they do not do a heap for me.... am I flexing wrong? |
Wow! That all sounds incredibly complicated - I'm not sure I can even follow all the actions you are making at the same time. The problem I had on the GS course was insufficient edge angulation, so we did some drills to help increase the angulation as much as we could. For me, focusing on flexing the inside leg (by drawing my inside knee up towards my chest as far and as quick as I could) was enough to increase my angulation. I didn't need to do anything complicated with the rest of my body; just keep reasonably centred on the skis. Everything else just fell into place. In an impromtu lesson later in the season I was told to finish my turns by gradually standing taller (bringing my chest up) which helped soften/come off the edges more smoothly to help with the edge change.
The stuff that Ron LeMaster has published seems pretty good for analysing teh basic actions of ski racers, and I can't recall him saying anything as complicated as you describe. Perhaps you could just trying flexing more?
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Flexing what? Ankles? Knees? hip? waist? elbows?
As I said - flexing my knees does little for me re getting what I need to do done..... they flex in a fore aft plane and I need to get my feet pronated/supinated - this uses femur roatation and some counter helps also plus the pronation/supination itself.... flexing does NOT help that part for me at least .... If it helps you can you describe how for me please?
Early edge engagement stuff - well again I use my ankles/feet etc .... my knees seem to do a little but play a smallish part (control the pressure change to new outside ski in ILE and the fall down hill in OLR)...
My hips do a LOT but I need to let them move slower....
I could not ski with my knees locked - but simply flexing and extending my legs does not even get me a clean edge roll on a cattrack....
If you want to send Ron le master to teach me how to do it - be my guest - I'm always up for a lesson....
I'm still struggling to see how a flexion in 1 knee and extension in another gets me a clean GS turn without ANY other movements.... I am pretty sure I have done this with an instructor and it does not much re getting a good turn going.... then again - i will ONLY do what is asked.... that is why I fall down on rollerblades if you ask me to lift a foot - you gotta describe the weight transfer to the other foot if that is what you want done.... my body does not understand otherwise...
Ummm - insufficient edge angulation is not usually my problem....
My last lessons the descriptions were
1) shoulder not in position to weight ski tip (aaahaaaa never did get what that race coach dude was meaning - now ii know)
2) hips moving.. when should not... ummm - like timing not where... (counter not in time I think - Ok so timing is a problem for me in long turns.... work in progress)
3) not sufficient forward hip movement at initiation (extend at hips) - (another aaahhhaaaa - sort of knew this but not quite aware of exactly how it should feel - now have stuff to work on to feel it better)
4) slight rush at turn initiation = small pivot not clean entry when I get worried - fine when relaxed (have a drink pre ski??)
5) not enough work on "finishing" short turns - lose weight and work on it! (I do know HOW just get lazy)
6) a bit "slow" on feet in short turns (ok i need to spend a few days doing fast edge rolls some time) even for my slow body
7) Lazy edge rolls - shoulder out of place and knees not working enough with feet
 Inside ski diverging - ??? maybe too fast with inside foot supination ??? skis (hire skis not mine and waaaaay too short for longer turns).... sometimes OK ..... this is a NEW problem - wa sthere - was gone (fixed) now back.... grrrr must fix!
I'm sure there is more but that is most of it....
will flexing/extending my knees help and how?
BTW - I could not follow allthe movements if I had to orchestrate... but that is why you practise each move you want and that way the body can do as you perceive without you doing the hands on direction.... do it enough and it is automatic... it is how I was taught fencing defences/attacks... learn moves... then see what you want to use against the opponent and focus hard.... it will happen when opponent puts self into your "plan initiation" situation ... you don't actually physically do it - i all appears in slow motion because you have planned it that way...
I can feel most of it though.... so i have a reasonable idea what the skis are doing....although less of what I am doing...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hywel wrote: |
| My sister recently mentioned that a friend's skiing had come on in leaps and bounds after some lessons - specifically where the turn is initiated by flexing the downhill knee, advancing slightly, whilst straightening the uphill knee. |
my bolding....
please explain INITIATION with flexing? and nothing else(as you say I don't need it) .... because I can't see how it happens.....
in the 5th and 4th last of that sequence I measured the legs as best I can and they changed not however the ski angle to snow changed....
if only flexing is needed to initiate why do staatliche do endless runs of edgerolls? or is it just austrians being difficult?(I know they do this as my staatliche instructor told me the story of spending a whole day just doing fast edgerolls)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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oh and note he also flexes his ankles and hips and elbows in those shots!
BTW - i think you have my shoulder problem
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| little tiger wrote: |
| please explain INITIATION with flexing? |
If you are standing with weight distributed across two feet and you bend one leg what happens?
I have many problems, including letting my shoulder drop in to the turn 
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You know it makes sense.
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I have a bent leg.....but still weight across 2 feet unless I chose to shift it.....(ie my hip is now rotated) this is what I mean... YOU may use a cue to trigger a sequence of movements... I do not ..... if you tell me to do x I tend to do ONLY that.... my perception of flexion in a knee is poor at best - as unlike an ankle with a boot i can feel i have only a pair of compression tights to provide feedback for the movement....
I do know from experience though that flexing a knee or extending another is not a way I have found to initiate a turn that works for me.... my knees flex in a fore aft plane and just do not do it for me....
at the end of a turn I have edge engagement in one direction - to change that I need to do something about flattening my skis... bending my knees does NOT do this for me....
same reason pronation works better than "rolling foot" for me... pronation includes the femur rotation and slight change of weight along the foot that the roll does not.... so I get a bit more tip pressure by pronating... or at least that is how it feels....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stocky wrote: |
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I don't understand how pronation or supination of the feet will have much of an impact on the turn
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rob@rar.org.uk, Pronation of the foot will put more pressure on the inside edge of the ski causing your speed to increase. Conversely supination will release the pressure slowing the turn. Even though the feet are trapped inside the boot it is still possible to pronate the foot. In simple terms all you are doing is leaning your knees into the hill. This sets the ski on edge making the turn easier to initiate. |
Sure, that bit I understand, but the reality is that fine tuning the edge angle happens with the knees (which in itself is controlled by rotating the upper leg in the hip joint, as the knee does not have much control over lateral movement). Talking about pronation/supination might be a helpful mental focus, but surely it's not a good biomechanical description of what is happening with the feet?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 22-03-06 10:11; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stocky wrote: |
If you think of it along these lines, in flexing the downhill knee you are allowing the uphill ski to roll more onto its inside edge and by advancing that ski ahead of the downhill ski and applying pressure you are then initiating the turn. The flexion of the knee of the downhill leg doesn't cause the downhill leg to initiate the turn but causes the uphill leg to do so, if you see what I mean  |
Yes, that's the point I was trying to make, but you described it in much clearer terms. Thanks! The focus on flexing the inner leg is simply a means of trying to increase my angulation, and therefore getting a more pronounced edge angle with my outside ski. I'm not trying to initiate the turn with my inside ski.
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| stocky wrote: |
| It's a nightmare trying to analyse and sort out problems with technique but sometimes we can over-analyse things. Remember, skiing is about feeling what the skis are doing aswell as thinking what they are doing. Sometimes things will just click and if you try to look too deeply into the matter you can lose sight of the reasons why we ski. |
Absolutely right!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar.org.uk,
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Sure, that bit I understand, but the reality is that fine tuning the edge angle happens with the knees (which in itself is controlled by rotating the upper leg in the hip joint, as the knee does not have much control over lateral movement).
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You are absolutely correct in the fact that tuning the edge angle happens with the knees by the rotation of the upper leg, but try to simplify the action in your head. If you physically try to stand, with ski boots on and clipped into your bindings and then try to rotate the upper leg you will find it nigh on impossible. Change this to bending the knees and then leaning them to one side and that rotation happens automatically. In the majority of cases simplicity is the key and over analysis will cause you nothing but stress.
Sorry to sound like Yoda but 'feel the ski you must' 
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| little tiger wrote: |
I have a bent leg.....but still weight across 2 feet unless I chose to shift it.....(ie my hip is now rotated) this is what I mean... YOU may use a cue to trigger a sequence of movements... I do not ..... if you tell me to do x I tend to do ONLY that.... my perception of flexion in a knee is poor at best - as unlike an ankle with a boot i can feel i have only a pair of compression tights to provide feedback for the movement....
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So find a different cue!
If you are standing with weight across both feet and you flex one knee you will angulate your legs (or fall over, if you flex too much). That angulation is all you need to initiate a turn. You can control the turn shape by varying the angulation. Use whatever cue works for you to control your angulation. Inside knee flexion, as a mental cue not as a means of turn initiation, seems to work for Hywel's sister and for others in this thread, but obviously not for you. Therefore find a cue which does work. My advice would be to find a simple a cue as possible, but if you can control your skiing through a detailed analysis of multiple biomechanical movements then go for it  You might want to look for inspiration here.
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| stocky wrote: |
rob@rar.org.uk,
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Sure, that bit I understand, but the reality is that fine tuning the edge angle happens with the knees (which in itself is controlled by rotating the upper leg in the hip joint, as the knee does not have much control over lateral movement).
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You are absolutely correct in the fact that tuning the edge angle happens with the knees by the rotation of the upper leg, but try to simplify the action in your head. If you physically try to stand, with ski boots on and clipped into your bindings and then try to rotate the upper leg you will find it nigh on impossible. Change this to bending the knees and then leaning them to one side and that rotation happens automatically. In the majority of cases simplicity is the key and over analysis will cause you nothing but stress.
Sorry to sound like Yoda but 'feel the ski you must' |
OK, I agree with that. My problem is that talking about pronation/supination when your feet are locked into ski boots is, for me, counter-intuitive. It doesn't work, and if that was my mental cue I would be frustrated by trying to make it work. Talking about small adjustments to your lower leg angle by moving knees in or out works for me, because I can see how it is physically possible given the constraints of ski boots. The theory (that this action is controlled by rotating your femur in the hip socket) is useful info for those people who like to think about the detail of what is going on, but not essential if you are skiing by The Force
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ski wrote: |
little tiger,
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Inside ski diverging - ??? maybe too fast with inside foot supination ??? skis (hire skis not mine and waaaaay too short for longer turns).... sometimes OK ..... this is a NEW problem - wa sthere - was gone (fixed) now back.... grrrr must fix!
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Weight to far back ? That's what I've been told (when I do it)....goes away when I get back to the middle/front.
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umm - no they say I am just a tad fast with the inside foot/leg... ie it is not quite in synch with the outside
Getting back does not seem to be my problem thsese days... that got fixed a while back (except if you want to think that the hips not moving forward early could be seen as being "bacK" I guess.... and ditto the lack of shoulder over ski tip on outside ski could be seen the same way... etc etc.... but in general - no not back)
then again - that is just an ex-WC racers opinion.... His diagnosis does seem to get results though - so I'm with him atm!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
So find a different cue!
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I did - it is Pronate/supinate
quite simply that is the terms my brain understands for the movements the body has been taught.... they work just fine and MUCH better than silly stupid "press on accelerator pedal" or whatever non-related descriptions....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| You might want to look for inspiration here. |
 no they are useless.... totally unable to grasp that not everyone has an intact "kinetic chain" (as they would describe it)..... they are so fixated on making the student fit into THEIR way of skiing that they don't get you are teaching the STUDENT....
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| little tiger wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| You might want to look for inspiration here. |
no they are useless.... |
I think that we agree on that, although I confess to never having read a complete page from their website. I normally get about half way through their endlessly complicated description of skiing and then I'm overcome with a growing desire to top myself.
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You know it makes sense.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
So find a different cue!
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I did - it is Pronate/supinate
quite simply that is the terms my brain understands for the movements the body has been taught.... they work just fine and MUCH better than silly stupid "press on accelerator pedal" or whatever non-related descriptions.... |
Just because something is "silly stupid" to you does not mean it is either wrong or bad for someone else.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| easiski wrote: |
| Hywel, I think what she means is that she was encouraged to extend her upper leg and press on her uphill big toe - thus softening the (until then) supporting/downhill leg. It doesn't really matter how she relates to the movements as long as it works for her. |
amen easiski
i would also argue pronation/supination are terms applied to movements that are resultants and that the movements of the foot that we are attempting to have students make are inverion/eversion.
i would never suggest tossing out those terms to any student other than an orthopedic surgeon or kinesiologist.
don't take something that is fairly simple and over complicate it. flexing actually doesn't do a very good job of describing anything......dorsi vs plantar flexing the ankle for instance.
in addition, "flexing" a leg does not turn a ski.
there are only three things we can do to a ski. tip it, turn it, push or pull on it.
get "centered" on a sliding platform and then turn em, tip em, or blend the two movements.
now having said all that, imho, the downfall of most intermediate skiers is their tendency to "brace" against their outside leg. they spend all sorts of money and time to get to a ski area and then do all they can to block, brace, grip, hold on, etc. most intermediate skiers would be far better off if whenever they feel themselves with forces building against their outside leg to then do one of two things;
1) increase their use of their inside leg...tip it or turn it more to complete the turn and diminish the bracing
or
2) begin the process of a new turn by softening the offending outside leg
my $00.02
worth what?
$00.02
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 23-03-06 2:16; edited 2 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, when I initiate a turn, I normally go for Mirror, Signal, Manouevre.
(my problem is they don't sell the Daily Mirror out here, and I'm using Colgate this week...)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Spoke again to my sister about this (although it was her friend who was being taught this) - and she clarified that this was being taught as a technique to incorporate when skiing choppier or bumpier ground. Apparently it was a bit of an eureka moment when it finally 'clicked'. Perhaps Rusty Guy described it better as 'softening' the outside leg?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Ditto for Rob, you did seem to be saying that these terms aren't suitable to describing the movement, but why not? |
My understanding of pronation / supination is that they describe lateral movements of the foot relative to the lower leg, through excessive lateral flexibility of the ankle. Obviously in a ski boot these pronation / supination movements are restricted to almost nothing. That's why I think that those are inappropriate terms to use, because anyone with the same understanding of those terms as me will wonder how you can increase edge angle at the start of a tern by increasing pronation.
That's not to say that I think everyone should work on the same mental cues. As I've said above on a couple of occasions, skiers should work with whatever mental imagery helps them to ski effectively. But I would have thought that those mental images should be at least biomechanically possible to help skiers? Suggesting that someone drops their knee in a little to get some extra bite with thier edges sounds like a good description to me, but suggesting extra pronation to help control your carved turn just sounds like asking for an impossibility.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob - actually every foot should pronate and supinate with every step.... (now mine does not really but that is a problem)....
the pronation is a slight flattening and "stiffening" (anyone got a better description ??) of the foot to allow it to weight bear better.... (sort of tension the big arch that runs from heel to big toe so the foot works better to shock absorb etc).... it is also connected to a femur rotation.... these 2 actions help to edge the ski.... supination is the opposite type of thing....
the natural thing is that a foot will pronate as it is weighted and supinate when unweighted.... this happens when you walk.... but (seems to me anyway) also when you ski..... as when you ski you still want to transfer weight along the foot fore/aft and arch to arch(side to side I mean you have 3 arches in foot)
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| easiski wrote: |
| little tiger, that's fine - but the whole point is it doesn't matter whether you get what Hywel's sisters friend gets - that's totally irrelevant, ans shouldn't matter to you one jot! Ditto for Rob, you did seem to be saying that these terms aren't suitable to describing the movement, but why not? just because you don't get them, doesn't mean someone else doesn't, and if they do and it sorts their problem who cares if they think the appropriate movement is the colour purple!! It's all abiout key words. The key word that works for person A isn't the same that works for person B |
Well said!
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