 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oh hell that must have been terrifying - poor mite. I was involuntarily “buddied up” yesterday with a little one, which I wasn’t comfortable with to be honest. I know everyone does it, and it’s accepted practice, but I think you should want to do it not have to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wow that is crazy - even what is more crazy is that they didn't realise for the whole lift ride! Especially if she was trapped between the two!!!
Yes there is some form of assumed responsibility from the ski instructor when kids get split and placed with other adults. However, usually the lifties are very good with loading and unloading the kids and the responsible adult only has to make sure the safety bar has come down "safely", chat to the little one if so inclined and if-if something goes wrong where the lift gets stuck, not that the adult can do anything as you'd be at the mercy of the rescue services to resolve the situation but at least calm/reassure the kid everything will be fine.
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That does sound horrendous. But even if they were strangers, it would be natural for adults on a chair lift with the child to connect/communicate in some way - if only to smile and say "Bonjour".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It seems that they are being sought - they must have brought the bar down without taking much account of the little girl. Oh dear. The worst I've done so far is trapped a kid's pole - learnt the word "coincé".
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| bambionskiis wrote: |
| Oh hell that must have been terrifying - poor mite. I was involuntarily “buddied up” yesterday with a little one, which I wasn’t comfortable with to be honest. I know everyone does it, and it’s accepted practice, but I think you should want to do it not have to. |
Everyone doesn't do it. I always say no. I don't have children and will not be responsible for someone else's. Over 6ish is ok.
Horrendous
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IME one is always asked - and I used to say no when on a snowboard, being so likely to wipe the kid out. But OK with it on skis. And the people in this incident appear to have skied off leaving an unconscious child on the chair...... that won't do them any good if there is an enquiry.
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 Oof, this happened to a kiddie sat next to me last year, they must have been 3 or 4. Child didn't make a noise, it was only the liftie shouting that alerted me to it. I'd checked before putting the bar down but then looked away and the child must have leant over or something as the next thing I know I can hear the liftie shouting "arret". Thankfully the others on the chairlift were French and able to have a little chat to help calm her down, although to be honest she seemed pretty chill about the whole thing.
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| pam w wrote: |
| IME one is always asked |
Not my experience. I'm sure you can easily object but I've quite often seen kids dumped onto chairs without the other people being asked.
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I have always been asked too.
I find it alarming that it would appear none of the adults even looked across at the kid during the duration of the lift when they knew they were temporary chaperones.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think this is one of the new auto-locking lifts (like the Ranfoilly express in LG). The bar comes down and locks, once it's down it's down so you may not notice an issue immediately. I discussed this with my wife when we were sitting on it with my 6 year old - I do failsafe safety type stuff for work. Horrible to see but as you say amazing they didn't notice. I get the heebie jeebies when my little one is on lessons and riding lifts with randoms, she's pretty sensible and well drilled (I was an instructor for a long time).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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That's horrible.
I am almost always asked and we will often split as a group to allow a child on the chair with one of us. They probably cant always understand my appalling French accent but I will always check Ca va with them. Sometimes you chat to some really pleasant little kids.
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I don’t accompany very small children, I am usually skiing with David and he takes responsibility for any that need to be taken up. We usually have a little chat, and then make sure they get off ok and join the other kids on the class.
I think the lift in question is quite long so it does seem strange for the other people not to notice. We haven’t been on it this year, I believe it may now be one of the type that the bar comes down and is then locked till the top. I may be wrong on that though. So if it comes down, locks itself what can one do? Can it be forced open?
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You know it makes sense.
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From the PdS weather thread it sounds like this was the newly rebuilt for this season Pierre Longue chair...with moden locking safety bar.
That would mean the adults on the chair had what, 5 to 10 seconds to lower the bar, spot the child was trapped and shout before they were out of hearing range of the lifty? From there they could phone the emergency services and get a message through - but probably not a lot anyone could do until the lift reached the top.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
probably not a lot anyone could do until the lift reached the top.
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But they appear to have just skied off at the top. Looks, to me at least, like they were unaware
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Poster: A snowHead
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Our thoughts are with the young girl and her family, hoping that she makes a full recovery, and that the family can cope with such traumatic events.
It's another terrible chair lift accident for Chatel, but since the Echo Alpin, cameras have been installed within 25m of the departure points on some newer chairs to ensure that the safety bars have been deployed correctly. On lifts with a lock system, it is even more important that it is deployed properly, since there is no way to lift and reset it once locked.
The ESF does not overstate that the duty of care will be outsourced to complete strangers 4 or 5 times during each lesson, but this process has always occurred during busy periods where the classes filter pupils onto the lift to beat the queues, and anybody who has skied at half term would be aware of this.
Often, experienced lifties will shuffle people around at the departure point to help with this, but it is not exclusively in lessons.
On Sunday on the Lechere lift in Lindarets the liftie deprived me of the company of my 2 elder sons ( 18 & 19 ) so we could all accompany some smaller people on the chairs in front ( no idea where the parents were btw). The 18 yr old took the responsibility so seriously, that he even removed one ear-phone for the duration of the lift - which for a teenager is a pretty committed.
Mrs WoC works for the ESF ( not in Chatel ), and she says that instructors are drafted in during the holidays to cope with the extra demand for lessons. These are qualified instructors, but who have chosen other careers such as teachers as their main job (this also means they are available in the holidays).
Consequently, some lessons delivered over half term will be by instructors who are not doing this day-in, day-out.
I have been around lots of (ESF/ESS) instructors, and those who do it all the time seem to have good empathy and understanding with their groups. In particular they know who is ok to "dump" on strangers, and who they make sure is sat next to them. That's not to say those who do it part time do not show the same understanding, merely that for some people it is automatic reflex, whereas for others it might be conditioned action.
Lets hope that some positives can come out of this terrible event, and that the young girl and her family can get through this.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dode wrote: |
| Quote: |
probably not a lot anyone could do until the lift reached the top.
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But they appear to have just skied off at the top. Looks, to me at least, like they were unaware |
That's certainly how it reads. Of course it's possible that they got to the top, alerted the lifties and then decided that there was no more they could do so skied off...still pretty callous though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Very strange that they so say didn’t notice! You’d think that when the child was first trapped they’d have made some sort of panicking noise-surely!!
And as for skiing off at the top-all very odd. I hope they find them and get an explanation.
That’s the thing with those automatic opening bars. Once they are closed they are closed. I’ve never seen any incidents where people have opened the bar too early on the older style lifts in 60+ weeks of skiing I’ve done so I’m not sure why they brought them in? I’m not sure I like being locked in to the chair I think I preferred the old version. You can stop other people lifting the bar too early anyway by keeping your feet on it.
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Locking safety bars have always terrified me mainly from the risk of some aptly named "kidstop" device crushing the crown jewels in a disorderly load. Seems there are more powerful reasons to allow some sort of manual override.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, there must be reasons why new chairs have them. Inexperienced skiers could be sat with their leg pinched or twisted and have to stay like it for 6-7 minutes sometimes. At least with the old version you could get everyone else on the lift to comply and resolve any issues.
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, there must be reasons why new chairs have them. Inexperienced skiers could be sat with their leg pinched or twisted and have to stay like it for 6-7 minutes sometimes. At least with the old version you could get everyone else on the lift to comply and resolve any issues. |
Could be an awful lot longer than 6-7 minutes if the chair breaks down for any reason .
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| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| Very strange that they so say didn’t notice! You’d think that when the child was first trapped they’d have made some sort of panicking noise-surely!! |
When the girl next to me got caught she wasn't making any real fuss. Of course that was only for a few seconds, but I still expected there to be yelling of some sort.
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@T Bar, true.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@SnoodlesMcFlude, did she have her head/neck caught?
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@VolklAttivaS5, yep, as my post above, child got their head stuck between the arm rest and the bar as described in the first post.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I can't even visualise that never mind understand how it happens
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@holidayloverxx, I could imagine that maybe she was looking over the side at something.
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@Pamski, is this with her sitting on the outside seat?
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You know it makes sense.
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@holidayloverxx, well she must have been on one side or the other if there was an arm rest?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Pamski, i think it's "arm rest" that's confusing me... i can't say I've ever noticed an "arm rest" on a chair. anyway it's semantics
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Poster: A snowHead
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It is just the side of the chair I think.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oh my word, poor little mite. 6 years old and in cardiac arrest and needing to be resuscitated. Seemed that the pisteurs did a great job with that but still. We often split so we can take little ones. I even give the lifties the nod while I am in the queue, so they know it is OK. I always make sure they are in safely, give them a nod, have a chat if they want to and just watch them all the way up. If they are very little and could slip under the bar, I will often put my pole across as well. My ones used to be in lessons at that age and so I always treated little ones as I would like my children to be treated. I really hope that she is OK.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Pamski wrote: |
| @holidayloverxx, I could imagine that maybe she was looking over the side at something. |
Yeah must have been that. Side of chair/arm rest, I used the latter because I think it was padded.
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In Alpe d'Huez at least, any new chairs in the beginner areas have been replaced with Telemixte as they call them, with a cabin every 6th. chair or so, that pretty well removes the kids group problem.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Some little wriggly kids are expert at getting themselves into trouble - getting bits of themselves in the wrong place - one of my grand-daughters (aged 6, not a baby) can be in a life-threatening situation on an ordinary dining chair. But even if somebody has totally ignored a kid all the way up the lift, being alert and aware as you dismount is basic. Some kids need a bit of a hand, though lifties are usually on hand for that. But even more experienced ones can be a bit wayward and can be careless with poles - so being aware of them, as they dismount beside you, and ensuring you are all safe and out of each other's way, is just basic awareness.
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| pam w wrote: |
| But even if somebody has totally ignored a kid all the way up the lift, being alert and aware as you dismount is basic. Some kids need a bit of a hand, though lifties are usually on hand for that. |
My reading of a different article (using an imperfect combination of my poor french and google translate!) is that liftie spotted the issue as the chair was coming in to the top station, so either just before the bar opened or just after. May simply have been a case that the adults on the lift were totally unaware until that point. They may well have been wrapped up in their own conversations / world and not paying any attention to the wee lass. Not saying that's right and I honestly think it would be hard not to spot such an issue.
However, I can't imagine they would have been unaware after the liftie spotted the issue - must have been plenty of rapid action around them and I know I'd certainly be aware of a lift being stopped and an unconscious person pulled off it right next to me. So I can't imagine how they could have just skied off unaware...
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| T Bar wrote: |
| Sometimes you chat to some really pleasant little kids. |
They do find one very stupid though, unable to speak properly.
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It doesn't happen that often with me, but if a child is added to our ski chair, I always check to make sure they are on secure when we move off and when the safety bar comes down, and when getting off. Its not a faff, it just takes a few seconds.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've had some priceless conversations with kids on chairlifts.
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The best was probably with a little girl of 5. I asked if she was a good skier. Yes, very good. Then I asked how old she was and got a whole rapid mouthful in reply, which I didn't fully understand, but had gathered that her mother was doing a birthday party for her the following day. I asked how old she was (again!). She looked at me pityingly and said very slowly, holding up the appropriate number of fingers "Today I am 5. Which means that tomorrow I will be 6". Several French kids have told me I talk funny. 
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