 Poster: A snowHead
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Driving for the first time and heading to Val tho for the first week of April.
We have a 2wd car fitted with winter tyres and I have snow socks to take for if it gets tricky.
Is that ok do you think? I’d love to avoid buying chains if possible.
Last year we went the same week and our taxi transfer just cruised up the nice black tarmac with ease.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is it going to snow heavily in the first week of April?
Nope, I don't know the answer easier... 
You'll probably be absolutely fine - wait until nearer the time to see what the weather is looking like.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It depends whether - as you hope - there's heavy fresh snow for your arrival. You could buy chains and get a refund if unused! It'll probably be fine.
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Socks will hopefully be fine - I've used them on a BMW 1 Series in 6 ins of fresh snow on top of icy snow and they were as good as chains.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If there's no fresh snow you'll be fine without chains.
If there's fresh snow you may be fine without chains.
If there's fresh snow and the police are enforcing chains you may be buggered without chains. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm in Val Thorens from April 6th, and have hired a car from Geneva. I haven't requested chains at this point, but I'll be monitoring the forecast in the week prior to going and if it looks like they'll be a chance of snow then I'll be calling the car rental company to request chains. We'll obviously have 4WD and winter tyres.
If it does snow, then in all likelihood it'll effect the last 400m into VT, anything further out will probably be coming down as rain. So socks will probably be fine.
Obviously, anything can happen so plan for the worst, and hope for the best!
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If you have 4WD and winter tyres, you won’t also need chains.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| If you have 4WD and winter tyres, you won’t also need chains. |
And a French number plate (Swiss should be ok) - Non french cars may be asked to put chains on - I Chamonix on explaining I was a permanent resident and apologizing for having a car that french bureaucracy has difficulty in allowing me to register in France, I was allowed to continue without putting my chains on. Mitsubishi Delica (which is very obviously a proper 4x4) with snowtyres and I always carry chains!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks @bar shaker, that’s what I was kind of hoping - but that’s just the kind of confirmation I need to feel more comfortable.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| If you have 4WD and winter tyres, you won’t also need chains. |
Really? I appreciate you may not "need" them, but isn't it a legal requirement to carry them just in case
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
isn't it a legal requirement to carry them just in case
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I don't think it's a legal requirement to carry chains. But if asked to put chains on by the police (and it is much more likely on a transfer day) you will go nowhere if you don't have them. Depends on the state of your tyres, too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Socks are pointless if you have winter tyres on: all socks do is - sort of - convert summer tyres to be like winters (but even then, only to a degree).
Statistically (and completely unrepresentative) in 20 or so years of driving to the Alps on winter tyres to ski, I've only ever needed chains three times. In each case, it was for a prosaically short distance, generally getting up a steep slope that was iced-up or slushed-up so badly by other cars that even winters couldn't grip.
If you plan to visit the Alps by winter-shod car in the future, then I'd say invest in a set of chains. You won't need them most trips, but when you do you do. This is always the core of the problem with the risk/cost/benefit equation. Only you can make the decision. If you lease and change your car regularly, I appreciate this may be a complication. Many of the more expensive chains fit a much wider range of sizes, so are more likely to fit your next car.
If you do go for chains, I'd recommend buying them in the UK and fitting them in the comfort of your own garage/drive. Many chains (especially those that fit a wide range of sizes) need the links to be adjusted for anything but the smallest size quoted. And anyway, it's much easier to practice first. Use the spare if you have one (easier to practice than with a car attached).
Also put a carpet square, and some old thin gloves in with the chains. And separate the two sets when you re-pack them to avoid chain spaghetti when you take them out again.
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| Quote: |
separate the two sets when you re-pack
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and don't reckon on getting them back into the dear little box. Take a couple of black plastic bags for them. Personally I don't use gloves - I find it much quicker and easier without, but you do have to be fast to get them on before freeze sets in. If you drive back and forth to the Alps once a year for 15 years you are quite likely never to need chains on top of winter tyres. But having spent months in the mountains for 15 years I did have to use them at least once most years. Sometimes quite unpredictably - sometimes you just encounter "the wrong sort of snow". Sometimes I've put them on prophylactically, on busy days, just to be sure that I'm OK with having to drive off onto the very snowy verge to get past the people stuck putting their chains on in the middle of the road. Or because I just knew there was going to be no other good opportunity to pull safely off the road and put them on. Choosing the right time and place to put them on (and take them off) is all part of the art of snow chains, and one I always struggled with - I probably erred on the side of caution sometimes, but I got so fast with the chains that it was no great hardship. In fact it was often quite a thrill - because, after all, you only put your chains on when there's lots of snow about!! And I never got over the excitement of heavy snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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Not a bad idea to have some baby wipes too - you can get very mucky. And a small kids beach spade is useful for scraping away the snow behind the wheel. Trying to put chains on with 6 inches of snow behind the wheel is a recipe for it taking a long time!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I like the security of having a set. Never used them other than in the driveway...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Won't these threads be easier next year when winter tyres have become compulsory in French Mountainous areas!
(As long as Macrons government gets it through into law)
But I guess they will be replaced by is my number plate with EU stars and GB on it legal or not !  (Probably not!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Anyone ever bought some in a supermarket at the bottom the hill and then returned them unused for a refund on the way home?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It would probably be safer to buy them in the UK - you couldn't rely on getting the right size in a French supermarket in April.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In Decathlon in Albertville the ski stuff will have been replaced by tents and camping gear by April.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pfffff. Just checked my rental booking with hertz Swiss side GVA for 14-22 April and discovered winterisation not included as they only offered between 15 November to 31 March! Am almost certain we will be fine but it would make more sense if offered until the end of Easter.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Nothing like being up you-know-what-creek without locomotion and WISHING you had locomotion. An ounce of prevention is worth what...........?
A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse...............................................
I personally remember a massive storm that shut down the Alps for a day or two or three in June. But, what do I know? Then, there is the famous balaclava story. Some people question why i "hump" a balaclava in my rucksack (which some still question - the rucksack, as well, the balaclava). They weren't with me on two particular days over the past thirty plus years. Had they been, they'd never raise issue.
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| Handy Turnip wrote: |
If it does snow, then in all likelihood it'll effect the last 400m into VT, anything further out will probably be coming down as rain. |
Really?  Why 400m?
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Really it's one of those conundrums, going to ski you're hoping for snow and much of it, as @pam w, often says. So you're hoping for conditions that may need chains but don't know whether to take them!
Often you're not going to need them as they clear road's etc fairly well. But IF you do, there's almost nothing else that will help you as you are well into problematic scenario. Always going to be accute with significant gradient too, and you'll have to accept in certain situations you really can't move without them.
You need to place yourself in that eventuality while thinking your decision through to fully appreciate what you are committed too.
A bit like house insurance. You really hope that you won't need it, but if you are uninsured and it does go wrong, how would you feel then.
Just because you've bought a physical product in chains as opposed to a piece of paper indicating insurance, the money is still buying the same thing.
It's not being over cautious to carry them, plus you may be barred from even accessing where you intend to go when conditions and legal requirements coincide.
Again, it's not often you'll get to use them we all know that. But if you do, then you'll understand why it's recommended to carry them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just come back to read this - and should clear up some confusion.
I'm not asking anyone to predict if there will be snow or not. I know nobody has a crystal ball. I'm asking really if winter tyres plus snow socks are the "same" as snow chains? So my question really is do I need them if I have the socks or would that be taking two products that do the same job.
Thank you though to everyone who has replied
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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They are aimed at doing the same job (keeping you going in the snow) but chains do that job a lot more effectively. It's like asking whether the blade on a cheap pen knife does the same job as a hefty screwdriver.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Stinkpickle, as Pam suggests, no. If snow socks are good enough (I have never used them as I can't see the point) then winters are probably good enough too. If you need chains, you need chains.
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Thanks everyone - for the benefit of anyone else reading this thread in the future I've taken this from the FAQ's of "autosocks" where I bought the snowsocks
Q12 Are AutoSock approved for use in the Alps, where "snow chains" are compulsory?
AutoSock have been approved since 2010 for use in France as an alternative to metal snow chains where the B26 snow chain signs require snow chains to be carried. Visitors to France will need to download a sticker to fix to the AutoSock storage bag, and are also advised to download the relevant details, taken from the Gendarmerie website, and AutoSock's press release.
http://www.autosock.co.uk/images/downloads/using-autosock-in-france.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------
So the answer seems to be that the Autosocks are a "like-for-like" alternative for chains, and legally and practically you don't need chains if you have these.
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You know it makes sense.
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That's what Autosocks would like you to believe. Having seen more than a few shredded snowsocks in the snow at the side of the road, I'll stick to chains. With good winter tyres you will probably need neither in April
Unless you're really lucky with the snow. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Absolutely no way are socks as good as chains. Note how carefully the claim is phrased - the manufacturer isn't saying they are, just that they comply with French chain signs, which is a very different thing. They aren't as good as quality winter tyres either. Perhaps this chart will help give a better picture:
It's not meant to be precise, but just indicative, showing what is suited to conditions ranging from dry and warm on the left to snow and ice on the right.
Socks have a very narrow applicability, as indicated on the chart: they don't survive long on tarmac, and don't work well on slush or alternating tarmac/slush/snow. If you're on solid continuous snow, they are better than just using summer tyres. But quality brand winters should cope with everything from dry and mild through slush, alternating tarmac/slush/snow, to solid snow. You then only need chains for the most extreme conditions e.g. where you're on a very steep slope, or ice.
Like insurance, the issue isn't what piece of paper you can wave in front of a Gendarme. It's what's best and safest for you and your family. And as you can see from the chart, in the case of a car already shod with premium winter tyres, socks are absolutely no alternative to 'real' chains.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks for the chart. Very helpful. I’ll buy some chains to keep in the boot and hope we have enough dumping of snow to use them. Because that’s the dream isn’t it!!  we all hope for snow
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@LaForet, that is a very nice illustration. Is it your own? I have been thinking the very same thing for some years now 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Suspect it’s a 1 in 50 chance you will need anything but tyres at that time of year and a 1 in 100 that you will need anything more than snow tyres.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Stinkpickle wrote: |
Driving for the first time and heading to Val tho for the first week of April.
We have a 2wd car fitted with winter tyres and I have snow socks to take for if it gets tricky.
Is that ok do you think? |
More than enough. Don't worry about it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Global warming, huge plow armies, and better winter tires mean snowchains today are almost completely unnecessary in Europe.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@under a new name I made the chart as it got tedious explaining what I meant about the relative applicability/overlap of summers vs socks vs winters vs chains. This for a UK car owners forum where I was making the case for high-performance model owners fitting winters even if they only drive in the UK (hence the 'gap' notation on the summer tyres). For a high-performance owner, to my mind, it's a no-brainer to fit winters if you are driving to the Alps, as you get a load of benefit from them back in the cold and especially wet UK. And a high-perf owner won't fit all-seasons as they are too much of a compromise in the summer.
Oher thing I don't think I mentioned is to check your traction control settings for snow and chains. In my Owners Manual this is very badly translated from the German. Not something I'd want to be attempting to interpret as we approached a snowy road.
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@LaForet, perhaps not for the highest performance cars but for "normal" ones I think you could reasonably extend the yellow band on winters a lot further to the left. They work pretty well in the summer, certainly much better than summers do in snow (i.e. not at all).
Our second car was a Fiat Panda and when it needed a set of tyres I fitted winters and as it didn't do many miles (5k/year) just left them on all year round for about 4 years until we sold it. Never noticed the slightest problem in summer. I intend to do the same on our Citigo when it needs new boots.
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| DJL wrote: |
| @LaForet, perhaps not for the highest performance cars but for "normal" ones I think you could reasonably extend the yellow band on winters a lot further to the left. |
Yes, I'd agree. For our second car - a Peugeot 1.4 commute/runaround - we did exactly that. The winters were fine in the summer and didn't wear excessively. The next time we came to replace its tyres we went for Michelin CrossClimate and I'd have to say that for both SUVs and 'ordinary' cars they have advanced considerably in recent years and seem to be a really good solution. To the extent that I think UK vehicles should come as standard with all-seasons, unless they're high performance and benefit from summers in summer.
Re the chart - where you place the ends of the bars is certainly variable, if only because of variation between individual makes of tyre. I also didn't put a Winters + AWD/4x4 bar, which would certainly extend the Winters bar a bit more to the right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| alti - dude wrote: |
| Suspect it’s a 1 in 50 chance you will need anything but tyres at that time of year and a 1 in 100 that you will need anything more than snow tyres. |
I must be unlucky then, last 5 Easter trips to a lower altitude (1600-1700m) I've needed my winter tyres once - and chains in addition once.
You usually don't need them. But when you need them, you really need them!! One trip (in February) I needed them just to go 30m up and down the sloping driveway to our apartment building (it was steep). That was a real pain.
P.S. Pam W is right - Decathlon is all camping and fishing gear in April.
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We have driven to and from the alps from Scotland for over 20 years, often more than once a year. We have winter tyres and I think we have used chains 5 times. The second time was to get from Tignes to Bourg where we were staying one Easter. Many cars without chains were ending up in the ditch. Chains are needed to get down as well as get up the road. It can snow heavily any month in the alps.
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FAQ
