 Poster: A snowHead
|
https://planetski.eu/2023/03/03/three-foreign-heliskiers-die-in-canada-avalanche/
Apparently 12 deaths due to avalanches in BC this year, implications this is higher than normal. Unusually unstable snow conditions a factor.
I’ve not seen details, but when we skied with the firm concerned, it was a ‘day trip’ and they don’t provide safety gear….
this incident not quite the same as ‘inbounds’ skiing, but hopefully some lessons can be learned.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@hamilton, presumably they don’t let you ski if you don’t have your own safety gear 
The thing I find surprising is that there seem to be multiple burials quite often in these heli ski incidents. Maybe that’s just my memory playing tricks? I can imagine the occasional incident catching one or two people but 3 dead and others injured suggests that most of the group were exposed at tte time. is it because the terrain doesn’t lend itself to skiing one at a time between safe zones or is it because the guides don’t require this?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@Arno, @hamilton, re avvy kit, I find that somewhat surprising. The 3 week trips I've done (2 operators) they wouldn't let you use your own kit, only theirs. And their attention to safety detail was impressive.
Re deaths, I heard that one area - that I won't name - that's been running for many years had their first avalanche fatality this year.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
@hamilton, when you say they don’t provide safety gear, did you all have your own gear with you anyway? Or there were people in the group with no safety gear at all?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Day trip package. Surprised the Avi pack is only an option. Usually it’s mandatory and they want you to use their packs so they can be sure
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Sounds like they all had the usual safety equipment then. But maybe not the air bag. I expect the guide had an airbag though.
The snowpack has been deadly in BC this season I think it’s the worst season for avalanche deaths in years from what I’d seen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I've been out with the same company and same run as the most recent incident. Transceiver training before we left, but only half the guests given backpacs with probes and shovels which they said would be enough for the whole group. Although that's no help if all three and the guides are buried...
I had my own transceiver and they wouldn't let me use it because they couldn't guarantee it worked (even though I was more familiar with it). Otherwise, safety conscious, 6 guest and two guides, one by one unless in the trees.
Snowpack very unstable this year - a lot of in resort terrain was shut in Fernie in January due to risks of inbound slides and slides from above.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
I had my own transceiver and they wouldn't let me use it because they couldn't guarantee it worked (even though I was more familiar with it). Otherwise, safety conscious, 6 guest and two guides, one by one unless in the trees.
|
Huh I wouldn't like that. I would much prefer to use my own that I am familiar with. Surely normal practice is to check battery level and do the standard transceiver check on both search and emit by the guide?
| Quote: |
only half the guests given backpacs with probes and shovels which they said would be enough for the whole group. Although that's no help if all three and the guides are buried...
|
Seems a bit strange as well given the relatively low cost of a backpack, shovel and probe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
I suspect the thinking with a heli operator is that guests will rarely/never be part of the search
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Quote: |
I had my own transceiver and they wouldn't let me use it because they couldn't guarantee it worked (even though I was more familiar with it). Otherwise, safety conscious, 6 guest and two guides, one by one unless in the trees.
|
Huh I wouldn't like that. I would much prefer to use my own that I am familiar with. Surely normal practice is to check battery level and do the standard transceiver check on both search and emit by the guide?
| Quote: |
only half the guests given backpacs with probes and shovels which they said would be enough for the whole group. Although that's no help if all three and the guides are buried...
|
Seems a bit strange as well given the relatively low cost of a backpack, shovel and probe. |
I agree, as long as it has plenty of battery in it and it transmits and receives that’s good enough surely.
Wonder why they don’t furnish every member with a backpack probe and shovel, I’ve never come across that before on any guided trip off piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@k, how long did you have on transceiver training out of interest?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
I can sort of understand the "use our beeps" thing. I've watched one avalanche event while on a helii trip and first response was get near clients to safety, guides into area searching, and heli overwatch. As it happened the client involved was barely covered. But at least in the early phases we were in no way involved.
So it's not a question, in an ideal world, of you being familiar with search on their beeps but them being rock solid that they can find you.
Although @k, I find partial equipment to be a very odd thing as well.
@BobinCH, I haven't been for a few years but back then CMH were deeply un-keen on avvy packs. Mostly due to inadvertent release in the aircraft. Which a chum has done, to no-one's amusement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Never been heliskiing myself but from friends that have done single day trips in BC the criticism tends to be boring flat terrain and overly cautious guides. I don't have reason to doubt them, and imo it makes sense - if I was guiding a group of random people with probably a range of both ski skill levels and avalanche training I'd take them to some non-avalanche terrain. I still don't think it's an excuse not to give everyone equipment though, considering they are paying $1000s it's not exactly a big expense.
It would be interesting to know who the heli skiing clientele is. You would hope that anyone doing it is a fairly experienced off piste skier with at least the basic avalanche safety training. Maybe it's became like Everest, where as long as you have the money nobody cares if you probably shouldn't be there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@under a new name, yes that could be it.
I wouldn’t be over the moon at not having a shovel and probe given to everyone because what happens if the people with the shovels and probes get buried leaving only the shovel-less and probe-less?
They say you need to be found within 15 mins to have the best chance after all.
These avalanches on heli ski trips around that area do sound pretty rare though but as has been said already this season has been a nightmare for them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
They have a chopper so they can get help in minutes. And they will never rely on guests to search as most will just get in the way.
Lack of avi packs doesn’t make sense. Best chance to survive is don’t get buried. I’d take a pack over a beacon every time if I had to choose.
I also heard you need to go private and prove your level before they’ll take you anywhere with consequence. This is logical as their worst nightmare is an accident - safety reputation is everything
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@boarder2020, I think you’re right the terrain chosen will be tame I’d have thought because they don’t know what the clients are like unless they are repeat clients. They might do a ski off first before taking them anywhere to at least have a look but that doesn’t show what people are like when they are tired.
I asked someone I met about heli skiing (as I was off to Banff the next month so going to Panorama with this outfit would have been a possibility-but as it happened the snowpack was a bit thin as you know) and they said more or less the same as you, lots of waiting around, flattish terrain, the weather being no good for flying, random people in the group falling down and losing skis etc.
They said cat skiing was better as it’s a much quicker turnaround and doesn’t matter if it’s not flying weather. I don’t know how that stacks up with other people’s experiences? Cat is a lot cheaper too I should think.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
What stands out in this incident is the number of people buried in one go suggestive of a massive slope wide release. These aren't without precedent about 20 years ago Craig Kelly and a school touring group from Calgary were killed in separate large incidents.
|
You don't even have to look that far back. T2.5 just outside kicking horse went on a similar size to the STS avy just last month - 115m wide, 1.5m deep. Horrible snowpack this year.
Avalanche Canada do have a little description of the most recent avy now:
"The guide was regrouping higher up on the run, when the fifth person in the group triggered a settlement at the regroup, which initiated the avalanche above. The entire group was swept into the sparse forested area next to the larger avalanche path."
https://www.avalanche.ca/incidents/645d13aa-4a96-4f11-a787-ded7a0051d63
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@boarder2020,
| Quote: |
single day trips in BC the criticism tends to be boring flat terrain and overly cautious guides
|
Can totally see that. From the guides pov, wouldn't you do the same?
@BobinCH,
| Quote: |
I also heard you need to go private and prove your level before they’ll take you anywhere with consequence
|
Day trips? CMH run a lodge called "Galena" which is mostly trees - very little alpine - and for a non-coastal range pretty steep. It's rather fine. "With consequence?" You won't get guided into no-fall zones, and the first afternoon is quite tame, but then it gets quite a bit rowdier (well, it did for us). Not Alaska levels, but fun enough. (We weren't private, but yes, they won't get lively without seeing you ski).
@boarder2020,
| Quote: |
You would hope that anyone doing it is a fairly experienced off piste skier
|
My first trip the weakest skier was an old, overweight, unfit Austrian lawyer who liked gentle blues and a big lunch. Bit of a disaster really but the guides just said, "we'll give him fatter and fatter skis till he's having fun too". They did. it worked out OK.
I am not an expert.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 7-03-23 18:38; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| BobinCH wrote: |
They have a chopper so they can get help in minutes. And they will never rely on guests to search as most will just get in the way.
Lack of avi packs doesn’t make sense. Best chance to survive is don’t get buried. I’d take a pack over a beacon every time if I had to choose.
I also heard you need to go private and prove your level before they’ll take you anywhere with consequence. This is logical as their worst nightmare is an accident - safety reputation is everything |
It's been a long time since I went heliskiing and avy bags were a lot less common then. But the attitude of the operation (Mica Heli Guides) was:
1. we are never going to reply on clients to search (so familiarity with their bleep is a non-issue)
2. the heli will drop searchers on the spot in a couple of minutes and there will be shovels/probes in the heli
3. avy bags are a bit of a nightmare because if a client gets a excitable with some sluff (slough?) then they will fire off the bag and that will take time to sort out which will mean the heli is not clocking up vertical AKA $$$$! The business is all about keeping the heli moving.
I suspect in this day and age, everyone at lodge-based heli operator wears an avy bag
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| jedster wrote: |
2. the heli will drop searchers on the spot in a couple of minutes and there will be shovels/probes in the heli
|
Is this really true, though? What happens if the heli had just picked up another group, does it drop them and their guides at the avalanche site (then go back to base to collect searchers)? I doubt any heli outfit has a spare chopper in the immediate area, loaded up with rescuers, all the time. I think it's more likely that it takes longer than a couple of minutes. A clued-up group could have started the search pattern at least.
Just seems weird to me not to equip the guests properly when it costs so little relative to everything else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@mgrolf, CMH Galena has a smaller helo which is mostly scouting terrain and carrying lunch, etc., with at least pilot and one guide, for instance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
@boarder2020,
| Quote: |
single day trips in BC the criticism tends to be boring flat terrain and overly cautious guides
|
Can totally see that. From the guides pov, wouldn't you do the same?
|
Well if you'd of included the following sentence of what you actually quoted you wouldn't have to ask 
| Quote: |
...criticism tends to be boring flat terrain and overly cautious guides. I don't have reason to doubt them, and imo it makes sense - if I was guiding a group of random people with probably a range of both ski skill levels and avalanche training I'd take them to some non-avalanche terrain.
|
I think it's probably for the best Heli ops don't *rely* on guests to rescue people. At the same time it seems stupid to not equip them potentially they are going to be on the scene quicker than the heli and every second counts. At worst you have more people to shovel.
Unless you are suggesting that the average Heli skier is so clueless they are actually more likely to make the situation worse. It may be a fair assessment, I don't know. If it is the case maybe there should be some kind of screening (e.g. AST1). Again to compare it to Everest it kind of feels like if you have the money the companies don't really care if you can actually ski or have any avy safety knowledge.
Ofcourse it's a huge speculation but from the avy Canada report it's not unthinkable this one was triggered by someone skiing directly above the group. Would a more knowledgeable skier took a different line and traversed over below the group? Maybe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@boarder2020, If I'd read it properly, I would have 
In my limited experience, the guides are a. very cautious on the avvy front and b. the Canadians have what looks to be quite the most amazing net of avalanche monitoring - with each guide group reporting observations morning and evening and sharing info/opinion. I don't think such a thing exists in quite such an organised fashion elsewhere? I mean, I know each country has some form of avvy forecasting etc., but the Canadian set up was unlike anything I'd heard of before.
So very much a question of avoidance rather than remedy. & I think your Everest observation holds.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 7-03-23 19:09; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
It's a rough year for avalanches due to a prolonged cold period that has set up a persistent weak layer at the base of the snowpack across most of BC.
When I've skied with RK everyone has a beacon and there are some guest packs. Airbag packs were option but I took one. RK basically assume zero avalanche knowledge from guests. My impression is that they'd rather not give guests the opportunity to cause chaos by "trying to help" when professionals are at most minutes away. You say they could help with shoveling but even for that there's an on-going debate over line vs wedge with plenty of opportunity to add to the injuries with a blade to the head. A clued up group could help but for a none clued up group (the default) time spent explaining is time that could be spent doing.
My understanding is that you use their beacons for liability purposes. Mixed groups means modest terrain choices - if you really want to ski then make sure you can fill a helicopter / cat.
Day cat skiing suffers from the same potential group dynamics as day heli. It also depends on what you've paid for. RK's pricing per run means people aren't trying to smash our vertical and almost anybody can ski 3 runs in a day... If you've paid for unlimited vertical then waiting for someone isn't cool....
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Pretty big slab in the Avalanche Canada report…300m wide and 75cm deep.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
What does it mean ‘triggered a settlement at the regroup’?
What’s a settlement?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Ah I’ve found it now in the Glossary.
That’s a good website actually, Avalanche Canada, I will have a look through it.
“Settlement refers to the process that consolidates the snowpack and diminishes its depth over time. It occurs as a result of snow metamorphism combined with gravity’s compression of grains in the snowpack.
Settlement is synonymous with strengthening of snow, but it can result in both stable and unstable snowpack structure. A snowpack described as ‘settled’ suggests snow grains are well bonded throughout the snowpack. Conversely, a layer of new snow that has ‘settled’ into a slab over a weak layer suggests an unstable snowpack structure”
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
@sweaman22, thanks, I’ve done a fair bit of avalanche training but it was a few years ago now, the last practical one was for 5 days in 2019 but it’s helpful to see different terminology used and good for revision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
@VolklAttivaS5,
| Quote: |
@k, how long did you have on transceiver training out of interest?
|
Two searches before we left. I did the day as part of a two week trip (to celebrate a special birthday!). We'd all had a day of cat skiing beforehand - the terrain cat skiing was harder than the heli day but neither day were anything like as steep as in resort. There were either 3 or 4 helis flying the same area. Split between them by self declared ability - so you didn't necessary ski with more than one other from your in your group. There were about 14 of us though! And after the first run potential for them to swap us around. Our heli managed 6 drops in a day whereas some of the slower groups only did 3 - purely due to the groups ability.
It was fun though 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
I've seen RK Heli criticized for the random punter nature of their day trips i.e. a group is only as much fun as its weakest skier but always assumed that as a result they skied fairly tame terrain. The amount of snow hitting western N America this year though seems to have been pretty exceptional with variations in wet and dry storms so I suspect a lot of stuff that is not usually dangerous has potential to be triggered.
What stands out in this incident is the number of people buried in one go suggestive of a massive slope wide release. These aren't without precedent about 20 years ago Craig Kelly and a school touring group from Calgary were killed in separate large incidents.
https://calgary.ctvnews.ca/strathcona-tweedsmuir-school-honours-7-students-killed-in-2003-avalanche-1.6255669
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/seven-skiers-die-in-canadian-avalanche/ |
Not really got/getting that much snow in the Canadian Rockies. The big problem is what happened at the start of the season; very cold and fairly dry so the entire snowpack is on a weak sugary layer 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
| Not really got/getting that much snow in the Canadian Rockies. The big problem is ... |
Well we got 70cm fresh one day last week, and dumps of 20cm, 30cm on other days. But the overall base isn't as high as usual... still 3.3m at the last pit I saw dug. It's all relative. But yeah, there's a layer or two.
Of the 12 deaths this year most of 'em were sledders. There were two fatalities at a CMH operator last month, then there were these three at RK.
ACMG 5, CGSA 0, then.
I was heli boarding for the last few weeks, and saw very little actual activity. Xmas / New Year was unexciting from that perspective also, despite the layers already being there. I didn't take any risks I was uncomfortable with. We weren't riding steep open terrain (unlike last year these weeks), but that's because there are these layers in the snow...
I don't know the details of the RK incident and don't know their procedures, although there are industry standards which RK would likely conform too.
RK is essentially a "daily" operator. It's not targeted at experienced back country people. I ran the booking/ logistics for a daily operator for twenty years, and rode there sometimes. You should expect about an hour's training in various avalanche stuff including practice burials etc. There will also be multiple groups in the machine, so rescue is partly a group responsibility (all would be fully equipped and freshly trained), but there's also "the cavalry" of the helicopter and backup machine and staff etc. I don't think that the experience level of the guests is particularly relevant to the incident. It's not up to them to decide if the slope is safe, or when to descend.
Airbags aren't that common in the heli business, although some operators provide them and training in their use. Euros often bring them. That said, if you have to deploy your airbag your guide has f-ed up, period. In about a hundred weeks in heli terrain I've never seen anyone caught in a slide, never seen anyone pull an airbag in anger.
Craig was also with an ACMG guide, who cut that slide out onto the second group he was in. There is some bitterness about that here. It wasn't a heli incident however.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Euros often bring them
|
Some of my Canadian buddies think they aren't so useful as most Canadian avi deaths are trauma into trees, not being burred in the alpine. I don't know how true that is with the stats.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
A few things on this:
- guide to guest ratio is sub optimal in my opinion. 9 guests; 1 guide. This is a result of flying the Bell 212 which helps keep costs down. Far preferable to be in a smaller ‘machine’ with a ratio of 4 clients; 1 guide.
- the Avalanche Canada report begs a number of questions including where exactly the guide was on the slope and (if I read it correctly) why not at the front.
- RK’s own website says: ‘All guests are required to wear a light weight backpack containing of an avalanche probe and shovel. This is the industry standard. Hand held radios are also provided.’
As they say themselves, this is industry standard so unlikely not to have been the case. However, with the guide injured and a large number of the group caught by the slide you have to wonder how quickly the remaining 2 guests were able to radio/react
- although it is true that heli operations can deploy additional resources to assist in a rescue this is not always the case and will depend on the location of other helis; how many other guests could be prejudiced by their guide being flown elsewhere, distance, fuel etc. I have heliskied a lot all over and I think it is acknowledged that the most likely to succeed in a quick rescue are those on the scene.
Anyway, it is obviously a disaster for the victims’ families and it brings home the fact that there are significant risks in activities (not just heliskiing) which many of us love.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
[quote="phil_w"]
| Quote: |
| never seen anyone pull an airbag in anger. |
Sorry, what do you mean by this? Some type of conniption?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| Sorry, what do you mean by this? Some type of conniption? |
It's colloquial English. I mean:
- I have seen someone have an accidental airbag inflation when they crashed so hard that they set their bag off, a couple of weeks ago as it happens.
- I've practiced and seen other people inflate airbags as part of training or practice.
- I've never seen anyone inflate one because they were actually in a slide. This would be "in anger", meaning using the thing for the emergency it's intended for.
The point is that you should of course never have to pull the lever.
---
Any Wiegele 212 will have a guide front and back of the group. I'd not personally pick either based on "safety" myself, I'm perfectly happy in either. Weaker people would probably be safer in a 212 with a trailer. In practice the machine available is a feature of the business model/ heli operator they're using. The main difference to me is the performance of the machine plus group size means you're going to probably be in different terrain. In Iceland they have only Eurocopters, although bigger machines would work fine in their terrain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| jedster wrote: |
| BobinCH wrote: |
They have a chopper so they can get help in minutes. And they will never rely on guests to search as most will just get in the way.
Lack of avi packs doesn’t make sense. Best chance to survive is don’t get buried. I’d take a pack over a beacon every time if I had to choose.
I also heard you need to go private and prove your level before they’ll take you anywhere with consequence. This is logical as their worst nightmare is an accident - safety reputation is everything |
It's been a long time since I went heliskiing and avy bags were a lot less common then. But the attitude of the operation (Mica Heli Guides) was:
1. we are never going to reply on clients to search (so familiarity with their bleep is a non-issue)
2. the heli will drop searchers on the spot in a couple of minutes and there will be shovels/probes in the heli
3. avy bags are a bit of a nightmare because if a client gets a excitable with some sluff (slough?) then they will fire off the bag and that will take time to sort out which will mean the heli is not clocking up vertical AKA $$$$! The business is all about keeping the heli moving.
I suspect in this day and age, everyone at lodge-based heli operator wears an avy bag |
Agreed, plus a couple of extra points:
4. they want the guides familiar with he beacons to in order to ensure all beacons are in search/off ASAP in the event of an incident
5. Space in the heli + bag going off in the heli also a consideration*
*I've only heliskied in a small 4/5 person heli where the bags went in the ski holders under the skids. Not sure how that's handled in the larger machines..?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
(4) At every operator I've visited, which is quite a few, you can use your own transceiver. I do. Ditto pack and other gear including radio.
(5) Everywhere I ride, the training/ protocol is that the T-handle has to be stowed before you get under the rotor arc, you don't have to remove the bag.
In the early days when bags were large they would carry them in the ski basket (Eagle Pass), but I've not seen that recently.
| Quote: |
| I suspect in this day and age, everyone at lodge-based heli operator wears an avy bag |
That's true where air bags are provided (eg Arctic, Viking, Northern Escape, Eagle Pass etc to my direct knowledge).
At the world's largest operator, it varies. In the last few weeks I was the only airbag user for a couple of weeks.
In the other machine (below). There five out of nine of us had bags:
Google WorkSafeBC and you'll find a very good explanation from Bob Sawyer as to why CSGA guides don't use them.
You're unlikely to guess why correctly without actually doing the research.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
