 Poster: A snowHead
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All my family are skiers, but for some inexplicable reason my daughter has taken up with a snowboarder. No accounting for taste, I suppose.
Anyhow, whilst I am perfectly comfortable repairing, edging and waxing skis this board thing seems altogether odd, so I thought I'd ask a couple of questions. We're just back from Alpe d'Huez over Christmas and I'm sorting the gear out to put away, so that when next needed all I need to do is a hot scrape and a wax.
First, is it normal for the board to dish under the binding? From what I can see, there is about a 2mm dish under both bindings. That's gonna make it hard to wax.
Then, I assume that 1 degree base + 89 edge is about right, it seems to be what it was set at (a Salomon le Vilain). He's not fussy or technical at all.
Also, how do you wax? Do you need a scraper that goes edge to edge, or just use a wide perspex scraper and depend on it not gouging anything (seems most likely)
With a board, is there any need/point fixing small gouges? I tend to p-tex skis, but boards are likely different.
Any other hints / differences to skis would be appreciated.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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First off I'm no expert and am happy to be corrected, but for a quick reply:
I believe waxing boards with the bindings on can cause issues, quite possibly the cause of your dish under the bindings? My older board has slight base dimples under some of the inserts which I suspect were caused by this. It hasn't affected the ride at all that I can notice. With the scraping I find with the width of a board using the wide side of the scraper is hard work to start with so use the thinner side to get the bulk of the wax off, then use the wide side when there's less to scrape off. Your scraper may vary I guess. P-tex repair threshold will be a personal thing, I myself just fill the larger gouges and of course any core shots. Edge angle - if he rides it fine, it'll do. Mine is 0 base and 90 side so pretty close to the numbers you mention, and feels good to me.
I had this reply in a waxing thread i started recently which I found useful and is possibly a handy one for you too, spyderjon knows his stuff:
| spyderjon wrote: |
| jjams82 wrote: |
| So I re-waxed the board last night, getting the base warmer than I previously have. On the thin tip and tail sections I could feel very slight warmth on the opposite (top) side of the board, and once the wax had hardened enough to touch could feel some warmth remaining on the base....... |
That doesn't sound warm enough to me. You want the underside (ie the top sheet) to be warm but not hot. The problem with a board is that it's so big that if you try and get it all warm at once you'll likely overheat some areas so you should iron in the wax in sections. When I'm waxing a board this is my procdeure:
- brass brush tip to tail to clean out the structure
- crayon on the wax, again tip to tail
- using the iron apply sufficient 'drips' to the complete base
- then I iron it in in sections, usually quarters/fifths of the length at a time, regularly checking the temperature by touching the top sheet.
Note that's important that the binding screws are removed to avoid any air expansion in the void which can easiliy bubble the base - I seen people do that a few times. |
Bear in mind that it can take a moment for that warmth to get through so go carefully/slowly at first if following the warm top sheet procedure above.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Ham, I just do them pretty much as per the ski's (ptex, edge, wax).
I have no dish.
I have the edges at 3 degrees or 87 depending how you define it (on all our skis and boards).
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| Layne wrote: |
| I have the edges at 3 degrees or 87 depending how you define it (on all our skis and boards). |
How do you find that on the boards compared to 90?
My file guide does 90 or 88 and I've wondered if i'd feel enough extra grip on hard stuff for it to be worth trying the sharper angle. I'm only on 90 as that's what mine came as.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So, with boards do you take the bindings off as a matter of course? how tight do you fix them back, and is torque setting beneficial? It looks to me as if the bindings should come off.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Ham wrote: |
| So, with boards do you take the bindings off as a matter of course? how tight do you fix them back, and is torque setting beneficial? It looks to me as if the bindings should come off. |
I believe it's recommended.
As for torque settings, I'm sure somewhere on the internet there'll be one for binding screws, but I've never heard of anyone being that precise and 'tight but not forced tight' hasn't failed me yet. I've been known to stick a dab of the not-stupidly-strong loctite on the screws to be on the overly safe side, but they've never come loose when I haven't. Check 'em after a days riding if you're worried.
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The advantage of torque is that I can get it right without experience (and I may not be there at the end of the day - t'aint mine after all) and - coz I haz carbon bike - I have a decent low setting torque wrench. Seems 4-5 Nm is about right.
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| Ham wrote: |
| The advantage of torque is that I can get it right without experience (and I may not be there at the end of the day - t'aint mine after all) and - coz I haz carbon bike - I have a decent low setting torque wrench. Seems 4-5 Nm is about right. |
Tighten till it strips the threads then back it off half a turn:D
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I go for screwdriver hand-tight, no idea what torque that is but it seems to be enough for me.
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@jjams82, your board would have been shipped 1,1 (=1,89). A board with a 0 base edge angle would be unusable (ie catchier than a catchy thing on a catchy day!).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| jjams82 wrote: |
| I've been known to stick a dab of the not-stupidly-strong loctite on the screws to be on the overly safe side, but they've never come loose when I haven't. Check 'em after a days riding if you're worried. |
A note of caution: getting loctite on the binding discs can cause them to become brittle & fail.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| @jjams82, your board would have been shipped 1,1 (=1,89). A board with a 0 base edge angle would be unusable (ie catchier than a catchy thing on a catchy day!). |
Ahh I see... The manufacturer only states "90 degree edge", I guess 1,1 is still a total angle of 90, explaining their description?
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| HandyHand wrote: |
| jjams82 wrote: |
| I've been known to stick a dab of the not-stupidly-strong loctite on the screws to be on the overly safe side, but they've never come loose when I haven't. Check 'em after a days riding if you're worried. |
A note of caution: getting loctite on the binding discs can cause them to become brittle & fail. |
Noted, ta.
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You know it makes sense.
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If you google it there seems to be a long running debate about removing or not. Example discussion. Seems me to if you really want to play it safe remove, otherwise just make sure you don't overheat and/or accept there is an outside chance of some issues. My childrens boards are relatively lightly used, therefore, lightly serviced. And of course they will get sold on after a period of time as they outgrow them. So perhaps less of an issue.
As for the edge angle. There have been a couple of long debates on here about it - and the confusing manner of describing the angle. Generally rule is don't touch the base edge unless it needs resetting (should usually be a 1 degree angle off the 90). The side edge might ship with an offset of 1 (creating a 90 angle) or maybe 2 creating an 89 angle) but I always go with a 3 angle - or 87 if number it that way) for all our ski's and boards. Basically because on hard pack you want more edge power - and there is little downside to a 3. Much more than that is overkill.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Interesting.... I always wax without bindings. Purely because they get in the ruddy way and I don't want to damage them.
When I have had to deal with a friends board where the bindings remain on, you get clear heat differences in the wax around the binding screw inserts.
Scrapers? Don't obsess too much. I've used everything from woolworths 99p plastic rulers, to surfboard wax scrapers, to old credit cards. If it gets the wax off, it's doing the job. A larger / wider scraper only makes the job quicker, not necessarily better. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I guess I can only add that it's the same as skis. If you have dimples in the base that's not something I've ever seen or which I'd much like. I was with bindings, but the shop waxes without.. why would it matter? Scraper-wise, it doesn't really matter if you're scraping excess wax off. If you're doing base work then your bastard-cut (it wants to replace that with 'fitzwilliam' - why?) file will be plenty wide enough anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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boarding dishing under the bindings is normal.
There are number of different types of camber.
You will find as you scrape it will find its own line as you scrape over the profile.
Wax without bindings as the heat from waxing can cause issue with both the mounting threads in the board & Screws that hold the bindings in place.
Without the bindings (& screws) the threads should be able to expand & contract as it heat & cools. With the screw in, the fixings in the board can only expand out & this can damage the board.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks, all. Somewhat surprisingly a consensus seems to be appearing: remove bindings.
As far as the base angle is concerned, I established it was 1 degree on the board from manufacture by marking and using my 1 degree base angle with a 1500 diamond stone, checked at a few places around the edge, if the mark disappears evenly, the base is good. Having set the base, I always wipe skis a few times with the 1500 just to smooth and remove any corrosion, then set the edge at 89, working through 400 to 600 to 1500 stones. Remembering always to de-tune before I try to pick the b*st*rd things up; somewhat surprisingly given the method of learning that's something I have to re-learn from time to time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I slapped a load of wax on the boards for Summer storage back in May, and I am planning on going up to Verbier on Saturday.
I do not have the time to drop them into a shop, and most of the shops in Morzine are still closed anyway 
I have between 3-5 boards to do depending on if 2 of the boys are going to take their new park boards, or last years all mountain-affairs.
In my mind, the correct thing to do would be:
- to give them a good brushing with a stiff brush
- apply more wax
- hot scrape
- brush again with stiff brush
- re-wax
- wait 1 hr
- cold scrape
- brush again with structure brush
- then polish with horsehair or finisher
But if I have all 5 to do then that'll take longer than I care for.
On the other hand, I could just do a cold scrape, brush and polish, knowing that it's a bit of a 1/2 arsed job.
Any advice for a quick-ish but slightly more than 1/2 arsed approach would be greartly apprecaited.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| WindOfChange wrote: |
On the other hand, I could just do a cold scrape, brush and polish, knowing that it's a bit of a 1/2 arsed job.
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Your half arsed job sounds like the way I fully wax do mine! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Half arsed job is fine - tools not jewels.
& why not make the kids service their own kit, maybe depnding on age with some adult supervision over the hot wax dripping?
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When waxing I just loosen all the binding screws but I don't remove them completely. 12-14 years of doing this I've never had a problem.
I also never touch the base angle although I have now bought a 1 degree base file guide so I can smooth out the base edge, as over the years the nicks in the base edge had gotten quite bad.
I have also settled on a 3 degree (87) side edge. (having initially started with the 1 deg side edge which was default on the board and gradually moved out to 2 then 3).
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I'll go with 1/2 arsed in that case.
As for the kids: they are teenage boys aged 19,18,17 so getting them to utter a single syllable is a challenge enough.
The youngest would probably make a decent fist of it, but the oldest is cack-handed and it would end with wax on the dog and his hands getting scraped. The middle one would suffer a separation anxiety attack due to having to put down his phone and give up because it was boring.
On the binding removal thing, the Burton board and the Endeavor boards use the Channel system, so the medium for heat transfer is different. The sliding captive nut can move freely in the channel, so any expansion / contraction caused by the heating the base should not have any impact. The channel itself cannot be removed, so it would be a pretty big design flaw if heating the base under the channel led to structural integrity issues.
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