 Poster: A snowHead
|
Hello
If I was mounting a binding on a plate (that allows the fore/aft position to be played with), what are the implications on how it will ski compared to having the bindings mounted flat on the ski?
Let's say for arguments sake the thickness of the plate is 15mm. And I'm skiing 80% on piste and 20% off piste.
In both cases the ski would be new and drilled by a professional and not me!
Obviously the plate setup would add weight, but how does it ski?
Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
A plate moves the skier higher of the snow (duh) which means more force can be transmitted through the edge due to greater a 'moment' (remember that horrible boring stuff from physics, i.e. the skier's mass is further out so exerts more force through the pivot point - in this case, the edge of the ski).
Really, there is no point in having a plate (other than the standard one that the bindings or ski comes with) on anything other than a race ski (or an everyday carver if you really ski fast). There is certainly no point I can think of that a plate would be any use in pow.
I stand to be corrected/clarified as appropriate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I put a set of salomon 912 ti's with axe plus risers on a set of scleavers with plates already on the ski's. It was too high for me and turns felt funny in the respect of the extra height etc
I run a s914 which is basically the same binding minus the grey riser plates. It does feel better to be honest, less funny. More akin to how my other ski's feel with the previous binding on. Certainly better for me with the risers rather than flat to the ski. I think powder skiings the one where you don't need any riser at all and the flatter the better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
A plate moves the skier higher of the snow (duh) which means more force can be transmitted through the edge due to greater a 'moment' (remember that horrible boring stuff from physics, i.e. the skier's mass is further out so exerts more force through the pivot point - in this case, the edge of the ski).
|
The other obvious result is that you have to move your foot further to achieve the same edge angle. (Your foot is further from the ski, so the arc involved is longer due to the longer radius.) For the same speed of movement of your foot, this is going to make you slower edge to edge.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
One of the reasons that larger plates are suitable for few people other than those that race, who can get quickly from edge-to-edge and incline/angulate/separate enough to get massive edge angles anyway. You're average holiday pootler won't be able to get anything out of them, and will suffer the disadvantage you mention.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
johnDUB, is that YOUR settee? 
I'm going all dizzy, I can barely make out the skis!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The benefits of binding plates on piste skis are greater leverage allowing for faster edge changes, more pressure directed over the edge & it removes the chance of boot-out etc. Pretty much everyone agrees with this although very few people actually have a choice as most piste skis come with the manufacturer's ‘hostage' bindings on some sort of rail/plate etc. I disgree with skisimon re lift on a piste ski being a 'racer only' benefit as many recreational skiers can benefit in obtaining edge angles more easily.
It's always been usual to flat mount a powder ski, the thought being that a plate will give a ‘disconnected' feel in soft snow & that the greater leverage is undesirable in powder. However when off-piste in variable snow with the ski on edge (as opposed to smearing/skidding) then a plate will serve the same purpose as it does on piste & actually give you a more connected feel with your edges. Interestingly, touring bindings are rarely criticised for their added ride height.
I've a number of customers who have Vist Speedlock plates on wide skis (80-100mm) & they say it gives the ski a much more solid feeling underfoot. The trick is to use a plate/lift with a soft flex (Speedlock TT or Pro Super Light) that will not hurt your ability to bend the ski, especially at low speeds & in tight places. And of course the added leverage will help when you want to put the ski on edge as well as greatly increasing edge to edge speed. They also say that it makes the ski feel a lot closer to their piste ski so acclimatising between the two when they swap skis is less of a problem.
At the EOSB last week I extensively skied kiwi1's demo 179cm & 187cm High Society FR's, both fitted with demo bindings that had 16mm of lift. I own the exact same skis but both are flat mounted & apart from the extra weight when carrying them I couldn't tell any difference in their performance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
spyderjon, I didn't mean to suggest that they are only advantageous for racers. I mentioned that skiers who ski well at reasonable speeds could benefit. But those that primarily steer their turns will find the difference so negligible as to make the expense of having special plates fitted rather wasted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
The benefits of binding plates on piste skis are greater leverage allowing for faster edge changes...
|
I think I must be missing something here. I don't see why those skis with raised bindings should be faster edge to edge. I've tried to detail my reasoning below. My question is, am I missing something, or is some of my reasoning flawed? I'd really welcome some comments, as I've seen this statement a few times and it doesn't make sense to me.
Basic physics tells me that the trade off is the ability to apply greater forces to the skis, due to the increased leverage vs the increased distance travelled by the lower leg to create the same edge angle, due to the same increase in distance from the ski.
Thinking about piste skiing, I can't see that a skier is overcoming any particularly great forces to change edge and initiate a turn. In fact, the skier is working with gravity here, as it's a move down the hill (precisely why so many people struggle mentally with turns, particularly on steeper ground).
If the forces are inded minimal, then the increased leverage is not going to help you overcome the increased distance that the lower leg must travel to create the same edge angle. As a consquence, I can't see how edge to edge can be anything other than slower (other things such as speed of movement of the lower leg being equal).
The one thing I can see that might work in the skier's favour is that if greater forces can be applied, perhaps less edge angle is required for a given situation. That said, both are linear products of the distance of the foot from the ski, so they will change in proportion to each other, one increasing as the other decreases.
The end result of this is that being further from the ski would seem to benefit those people who are quick edge to edge but struggle to apply sufficient force during their turns. Being closer to the ski seems to benefit those who are slower edge to edge but have plenty of power. In general, those who are quick are going to be those with a higher percentage of fast twitch muscle, which is also going to give them more power. So it seems that those with good genetics and/or a good training background are going to be at a clear advantage either way, which is not really a surprise.
The one remaining variable I can see is mass. Increased mass will let a skier apply greater forces to the skis. Heavier, 'slower' (i.e. with less fast twitch muscle) skiers would seem to benefit from being closer to their skis. Lighter, 'faster' skiers would seem to benefit from the raised bindings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Thats a throw on the settee.
Ski's are Salomon Scleaver 8's 3V
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| johnDUB wrote: |
Thats a throw on the settee.
... |
Yes it would certainly make me hurl! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Primani's best. It's gone now to pastures new
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
one nice benefit is i can slide my skis onto the foot rests on chairs... The riser makes a nice gap between the ski and boot. Im too tall to get my skis onto most chair lift foot rests. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
RobMcQ, i think it is more to do with getting bigger edge angles through leverage as opposed to more force...
Definately works as in racing the amount of lift is regulated as measured from the base of the ski to the sole of the boot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
What got me into risers were the ski's which i sold geepee. A set of Blizzards with a Rossi binding on a plate. Prior I'd been using a stock 912ti straight on my xscreams, and i found i could boot out in the snow. The blizzards didn't do this, and edge angles were less with the plates. I hunted a set of axe plus plates to s&r at sheffield ski village and bolted on. It was like the xscreams were a different ski and more fun to use.
So I like to ski with a plate/riser on, but not too much as I had before, because that felt wrong. Preferences I guess.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
spyderjon, You nearly posted without mentioning Vist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Surely there must be a trade off somewhere? Yes, I get the bit about the increased leverage being caused by the skier being higher and therefore the edge to edge being easier to initiate. However, My Elan skis are just the oppostite - their bindings actually fit inside the construction of the ski itself and therefore the boot clicks in very close to the ski - Elan describe this beneficial due to the fact that the pressure through the base of the boot goes straight into the ski and therefore makes the ski very responsive for this reason - this would seem at odd with mounting these riser plates which clearly causes a different effect - though beneficial in some respects they can't be helpful in directing the boot pressure onto the ski. So is there a trade-off going on?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Personally, it depends on the person and what your skiing and your ski type. Both risers on both ski's measure 13mm. That's a happy height for me. 26mm as in the pic was way too much.
The risers on the xscreams basically bolt through with the binding screws so you use longer screws. In effect, its just an extension of the binding so your still flat mounted.
On the scleavers, the riser plate is pre mounted to the ski and pre drilled for salomon bindings, so you only screw the bindings to the riser plate. This plate is of solid construction so again it acts as an extension of the binding.
They work for me and I find it's less effort to switch edge to edge, but, i don't ski off piste so a flat mount I don't need anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
After reading another thread where race plates were mentioned as the only difference between two skis I thought I'd google race plates. And immediately ended up back in Snowheads, in this 10 year old thread!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Valkyrie, but does it help you at all? Having read the thread, I'm none the wiser on whether plates make you faster edge to edge or not. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
For the last 15 years, I have skied with a reasonably high plate under the binding.....then last year, I skied on Scott the Ski, with the Bindings mounted flat. I did notice that higher edge angles were harder to achieve and took more effort, especially with a stiff lower back that's had a fusion.
My usual Piste skis have waists of 70mm and 63mm...so would be much faster edge to edge than the Scotts (92mm)....but I still think the Scotts would have worked better (for me) on Piste, with a riser underneath. They were bought as an All Mountain Ski, so this is not an issue...except there was not much snow in Crested Butte in mid Jan, where I was using them. 
My impression has always been that the plates give faster edge changes....and that a smaller movement gives a bigger angle, than the same movement on a flat ski.....but it is an impression.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Raising the boot off the ski surface also makes "booting out'" less likely for racers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have a race plate on a pair of my skis, but it was put on to avoid "Hole Clash" when I put some new bindings on.
That doesn't really help, does it. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@Mosha Marc, it could... do you notice any difference as a result of it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
a smaller movement gives a bigger angle, than the same movement on a flat ski
|
How does that geometry work then?
I always thought the height think was only really to avoid booting out - but that plates can also stiffen the ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| NickyJ wrote: |
| @Mosha Marc, it could... do you notice any difference as a result of it? |
They're on a pair of Movement Le Fers and that's a very turny ski compared to my others, so I have to ski it differently to them anyway. I think that the plate did change the rhythm needed to do the fast edge to edge fall line type of thing. If there is an advantage I can't really feel it.
You can see over a few more heads in the lift queue though 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| Quote: |
a smaller movement gives a bigger angle, than the same movement on a flat ski
|
How does that geometry work then?
I always thought the height think was only really to avoid booting out - but that plates can also stiffen the ski. |
You missed out the "gives the impression", from the quote....and yes I also agree with your other points.
Maybe Spyderjon can confirm or deny....having said this, "The benefits of binding plates on piste skis are greater leverage allowing for faster edge changes, more pressure directed over the edge & it removes the chance of boot-out etc."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
@Old Fartbag, There is a "mechanical advantage" based on "moments" due to increasing the distance/height between the boot sole and the running ski base. This then actively supports increasing pressure, edging, and thus carve/turning. The "greater leverage" is really marginally increasing the relative moment (force x distance) between boot sole and ski base. Marginal gains may certainly be missed by regular skiers, however, in FIS slalom racers any gain increases the potential to shave nano-seconds from a timed run.
Having used race plates in the past (Hangl, Vist, K2 Risers) I personally like them as they can marginally amplify the feel of a ski edge to edge (SL turns), or increase edge angle hold on GS turns. That's a personal preference.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
@Old Fartbag, I think that impression is probably due to other factors. But a plate may mitigate the castor effect of wide skis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@under a new name, On wider skis (80mm plus) the effect of a riser plate is negated by the increased angular geometry between the boot/binding interface and the ski edge being further outwards. A wider ski binding interface may well hinder the advantage of a riser plate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Hmm don't really believe in plates on skis that are not purely about piste performance and not that keen on the rise in frame bindings either though that's a necessary evil ( fritschi freerides of old being the most evil for a disconnected wobbly feeling).
The principles of leverage are fine when you are on a narrow ski on a firm surface. Less valuable when you want to ski on a variable surface using a variety of techniques.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
@5tanton, what? 1. you have my argument back to front in that I suggest a riser may mitigate the castor effect of the wider ski (not that the wider ski reduces the effect of the plate) and what increased angular geometry?
It's really not all that complicated.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, I think that impression is probably due to other factors. |
Which is exactly why i worded it like that.....The extra leverage/power, may well be what does this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@Dave of the Marmottes, I would say it's actually the other way around.
& Frame touring bindings were wobbly because by necessity the front was only attached by a hinge...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, I would say it's actually the other way around.
& Frame touring bindings were wobbly because by necessity the front was only attached by a hinge... |
Yeah I know a bit of conflation re bindings but any excuse to have a pop at the terrible freeride.
I can draw the triangles for putting edge of the boot sole over the ski edge as well as anyone but I still don't really think it's the point for off piste skiing. You either have the skills to tip a ski of a given width or you don't. Once you do you are playing with all sorts of variables in variable snow such that you are inevitably compromising one ability for another if you try to rig set up in a specific direction e.g. set the bindings back to help get your tips up and have more stability at speed= lose some fun characteristics and pivotability in bumps. I don't see risers being any different.
I'm more interested beyond the anecdotal in whether wide skis really hurt your knees. The physics seem plausible but equally they usually punted by skinny ski advocates. And most seem to ignore penetration into or cushioning of the snow pack.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
To me, Stanton's initial explanation is the clearest. The increased stack height gives greater torque / moment at the ski edge. However, as Dave mentions, other factors come into play in soft snow conditions and being lanky, I don't like being too high off the ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Kelskii wrote: |
| ....and being lanky, I don't like being too high off the ski. |
....so really, Risers are simply the skiing equivalent of Platform Shoes for Short Arses. I like it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Dave of the Marmottes, The frame bindings like the Tracker / Guardian are rock solid and alpine in feel. Nothing like the old Fritschis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
