 Poster: A snowHead
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Latest study contradicts previous findings that suggest an increased risk from wearing a helmet. FIS has backed the study which is reported in today's Journal from JAMA (Journal of the American Medical Association).
The study, released today, claims that "helmet use reduces head injuries by up to 60%".
Summary here
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think that this one has still got further to run...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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From the above:
| Quote: |
| At the same time, head injury is the most common cause of hospital visits and death among alpine skiers and snowboarders. |
I'm very surprised at that (the hospital visits, not the death part). Amongst my acquaintances, arm/shoulder or leg injuries, but not head injuries, have occasioned hospital visits. What is everyone else's anecdotal experience?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Oz resort I ski at the local medical clinic can x-ray etc.... so they can do the not so complex arms and legs..... in fact my cousin is a surgeon using pretty fine technique stuff & when she broke her wrist the local doc reduced & set it with her agreement.... she was surprised that he did such a great job until i pointed out how much practice he has at EXACTLY that procedure.....
the hospital would get plenty more heads - because the local guys are not going to play with or sit on any suspected head injury.... off in the ambulance to hospital and some neuro check ups for you if you have a head injury...
from working in the resort.... LOTS OF arm/shoulder/leg injuries.... I could almost pick what sport and even had a fair shot at the run and location some days... (poor cover on corner xxx of a certain run combined with stupid speed for the conditions resulted in a spree one week).... i had a mass of crutches that i hired and sold even more.... the hospital never laid eyes on one of those patients though!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| What is everyone else's anecdotal experience? |
Since you ask, in 25 ish years of skiing, probably 35-40 weeks, sometimes in a party of 20, sometimes 2, the only injuries to someone in our group sustained on the mountain and requiring medical attention have been 1 ACL (a very low speed collision), 1 cut eyelid (hit by own ski following wipeout), 1 bash on the head (high speed head plant, no helmet, unpleasant but not serious), 1 bruised calf muscle (hit by a high speed idiot) and 2 knackered toenails (ill fitting boots, I bore up bravely). Rather more off piste injuries in our earlier days, including a broken ankle and a busted nose.
Only one head 'injury', which would have benefitted from a helmet, I'm sure, and led to the recipient (my old lady) buying one (stable doors come to mind).
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FIS state in their press release:
| Quote: |
| At the same time, head injury is the most common cause of hospital visits and death among alpine skiers and snowboarders. |
The most common cause of hospital visits?
I'd like to see the source of that information, because it contradicts all the data I've seen about the frequency of head injuries in skiing, relative to other injuries.
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ACLs, collar bones, scaphoids, tibias have been the injuries I've seen. Probably about 10 of those in total, with a similar record to Richmond's but usually amongst much bigger groups. I haven't seen a single head injury resulting in a surgery or hospital visit. Saw a helmet-less bloke hit by a released drag pole last week though. Ouch!
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In 20yrs/55wks skiing I've seen 2 broken legs, 1 ruptured ACL, a few knee sprains (miss a couple of days skiing, but no worse than that), plus a couple of concussions, cuts & bruises etc. One time someone got a whack on the head by a Poma which was painful but not really nasty. Like everyone else here, I'm very skeptical about the "head injury is the most common cause of hospital visits" bit and don't think this quote should be taken too seriously.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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the term 'head injuries' could mean anything though - they might have just fallen and knocked their head on the snow, feel a bit dizzy and are sent to hospital for a scan just to be on the safe side, or they could have smacked their head on a rock and have a hole in their head.
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Helmets have become very widely used in the US. While I wasn't thrilled with the idea, I purchased one. It's really very comfortable. A couple of weeks ago I got distracted, caught an edge, and slammed by head into the hard snow. Had a pretty good headache. I was glad I was wearing a helmet though I don't think I would have been seriously hurt without. Other injuries are clearly much more prevelant, and helmets won't help you much if you hit a solid object head on at high speed, but I have to think they help in some situations.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Touch wood... in the parties i have travelled with, I've seen one nasty knee injury ( skier in 1 foot fresh snow on piste, got her legs tangled up ! ) and nothing else that required a hospital or doc visit.
That said, the rest of us are snowboarders. Amongst them, we've had two cases of what I would class as mild concussion ( i.e. hit head and left dazed by side of piste ! none deemed serious enough to go to the Doc - thou both lost recollection of exactly what had happened in the immediate times before and after their falls. Both since went on to buy helmets ). In my own case, caught a heel edge on a black and went over backwards down the hill, banging head significantly on the icy piste. This is the only time I've had cause to test out my helmet and I was pleased to be wearing it ! Remarkably, no-one has yet had the classic wrist injury - we have a mix of people who wear or don't wear wrist guards. Other than that, lots of bumps and sprains that barely warrant a mention.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hello
I'm currently looking for funding to conduct a slopeside study to investigate the link between wearing warm clothing and a reduced risk of admission to hospital for cold related illnesses. If you feel able to fund this important study please send a cheque for 20,000 UKP to
Prof Phil Spart
University of Upper Stour Valley (former Devizes College of FE)
Department of Sports Studies
Blg 14
Brewery Street
Devizes SN15 1PQ
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, while consuming large quantities of 6X? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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One decent concussion in the group I was with at the beginning of January - he was concussed and out of it for just over a day.
3 times I have smacked my head off ice this season - 2 of those occasions would have left me out cold or worse without a helmet.
Was it easiski or snowbunny that was hit last year with a chair lift, well that has happened to me once this season and immedaitely thought of that post and burst out laughing.
Twice cought on the head by folk turning round with skis not thinking about where the skis might come into contact with.
I have used 4 weeks vacation since the beginning of December, and I am normally on mountains 1 or 2 days at the weekend and Wednesday for night skiing. 
Next week is the last full week I will use for winter leave.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof,
Hello..
I am currently researching the Link between consuming huge amounts of alcohol and assorted injuries
related to this procedure..
Please send 45 cases of 1664 to the address mentioned above and a camcorder, cos i aint gonna be able to remember any of it..
Any profits made from the naked pissed skiathon at 1.30 am will of course be refunded unless it is required for skin grafts.
Canv canvington..Q.C. M.D. OBE. VC.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Richie, I took 4 weeks off during last summer to get bronchitis and sinusitis for 3 weeks of the vacation, whilst moving house, putting in the pool etc.
Got a line from the doc and claimed the time off back and I think I have used it wisely this winter instead. 
Quite fortunate as I get 6 weeks vacation a year.
Congrats on the baby, I have 4 (16,13,7,5) kids are great, even the ones that push in on lift queues.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am sligthly concerned about FIS' interpretation of the scientific evidence supporting the use of helmets. The use of words such as 'irrefutable' and 'conclusivley' in the quote provided by PG is (IMHO) overstating the level of evidence presented. This strong wording is not backet up the quoted (or any other) study. The curent level of evidence suggests that the use of helmets is of some benefit to people who injure their heads. What concerns me even more is the insinuation that FIS would like to see the use of helmets be made compulsory for recreational skiers. My own view is that i do not believe that a helmet will save my life or prevent significant head injury and therefore at present time i will continue to ski, like i have been doing for the last 30 odd years, without a helmet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PP, only an idiot would think that a helmet would save his/her life. But don't you think that it might improve your odds significantly, at the very least?
PS I have also skied for 30 odd years (some of them very odd indeed!) and hated being made to wear a helmet in GSs in Scotland as a kid. But now I wear one all the time.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
FIS state in their press release:
| Quote: |
| At the same time, head injury is the most common cause of hospital visits and death among alpine skiers and snowboarders. |
The most common cause of hospital visits?
I'd like to see the source of that information, because it contradicts all the data I've seen about the frequency of head injuries in skiing, relative to other injuries. |
DG
as I said above it may depend on resort set up.....
from working in an Oz resort we had many more arms & legs... but treated more of them ourselves... while the heads were more likely to tranfer to hospital..... the resort itself had a medical clinic with x-ray facilities.... right at the base of the lifts.... the one down the road has the same set up ..... Also allied health on site....
From what I saw in france this largish medical centre at the lift in the resort was not the norm there....
So you can see the numbers in hospital visits may be skewed by the resort set up.... for the 2 resorts I mentioned a hospital was about an hours drive away.... helipad was half an hour drive.... if air ambulance sets down in resort it is BAAAAAADDDD NEWS.... (no landing pad)
Oh and the hospital was a regional one where you have babies etc.... nothing at all severe goes there... so the hospital you go to realistically is likely to be 2.5hours drive away.... as you can imagine you want a pretty bad leg/arm injury to go to hospital! The medical clinic is simply NOT set up for head injuries much - so they get shipped out while the local docs handle the arms & legs that they feel is in their range....
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Are any 'docs' here registered subscribers to JAMA? It would be interesting to hear views on the full report, which I can't access as a guest.
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its a scam by giant u.s. multinational sports good firms.. to make helmets compulsory.. nike et al (which is owned by george bush) will sell millions at 90 usd a pop, being manufactured by 6 yr olds in north korea for 45 cents.. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| CANV CANVINGTON wrote: |
| its a scam by giant u.s. multinational sports good firms.. to make helmets compulsory.. nike et al (which is owned by george bush) will sell millions at 90 usd a pop, being manufactured by 6 yr olds in north korea for 45 cents.. |
And there's me thinking that my helmet might protect my head if I fell over. What a chump I am.
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Martin Bell, it depends what kind of injury you are talking about and what you mean by significantly. I am sure helmets significantly decrease the risk of sustaining a minor head injury eg laceration as a result of being hit by your own skis. The evidence for the use of helmets in this type scenario is good, but evidence that a helmet will prevent a catastrophic intracranial haemorrhage, an injury one might sustain as a result of a fall on icy piste is tenuous. Another area where the evidence is lacking is what risks are you exposing yourself to by wearing a helmet. These 'unknowns' have been explored in the scientific literature but not to a degree that FIS would have us believe in the above mentioned statement. IMHO there is not enough evidence to make wearing of helmets compulsory and it should remain a matter of personal choice. On reviewing the evidence I do not believe that a helmet will significantly improve my odds of sustaining a severe head injury and may in fact cause me some harm.
It would be interesting to compare the injuries suffered by competitive skiers before and since wide spread use of helmets. Did more racers die of head injuries prior to the introduction of helmets? Are head injuries less severe nowdays? Are neck injuries more or less common?
CANV CANVINGTON, although I am not a huge fan of conspiracy theory I am sure financial gains play at least some part in promoting the use of helmets.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| PP wrote: |
| ................On reviewing the evidence I do not believe that a helmet will significantly improve my odds of sustaining a severe head injury and may in fact cause me some harm. ......... |
Same here. And yet a couple of medical chaps who I know, whose judgement I see as sound on most things, wear them. So I keep thinking I may be missing something.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Nick Zotov, my personal physician doesn't!
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PP, how can wearing a helmet cause you harm?
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You know it makes sense.
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Nick Zotov, and there are as many medics who don't wear them as well.
Analysis of safety interventions is a very complex public health subject, as is critical appraisal of the meaning of the papers produced, and comprehension of the data is not easily accessible for someone who is not formally trained, and often inpenetrable to some of those who are trained. Couple this with a lot of people's "gut" instinct that wearing helmets must be a good thing, and it makes for a difficult discussion filled with gaping logical fallacies.
FWIW, I agree that this study comes nowhere close to the level of certainty claimed by the FIS press release, and certainly isn't a basis for calling for the compulsory wearing of helmets.
Martin Bell, significantly is a very poor choice of word I'm afraid. What it means statistically, and what it means in common useage are quite different things. Helmets probably do reduce the number of serious headinjuries, but in absolute terms, it is probably by a small amount.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Tim Brown, apart from the fact that every health intervention always has a downside as well as an upside. With helmets the two downsides are cost and a suspected increase in the risk of injuries to other areas, especially the neck.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Tim Brown, apart from the fact that every health intervention always has a downside as well as an upside. With helmets the two downsides are cost and a suspected increase in the risk of injuries to other areas, especially the neck. |
Other downsides might include increased risk-taking, and loss of awareness of other slope users?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kramer, how do helmets increase the risk ok neck injury?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Tim Brown, as Kramer and Rob point out.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar.org.uk, I can see and hear just as well with my helmet on as without. So how would a loss of awareness come into the equation? As for taking more risks; in what way? Ski faster? Ski off higher cliff?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PP, if you take more risks and get hurt it's not the helmets fault.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Potentially by increasing the weight that your neck has to support and by making your head 'bigger' therefore more likely to get caught in a tumble.
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| Tim Brown wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk, I can see and hear just as well with my helmet on as without. So how would a loss of awareness come into the equation? As for taking more risks; in what way? Ski faster? Ski off higher cliff? |
My hearing is reduced when I wear my helmet, and if I had a full "race-style' helmet which covered my ears it would be reduced even further. Compared to wearing a hat and sunglasses, my helmet and goggles also reduced my peripheral vision slightly.
Some people may have an enhanced sense of confidence to go a bit quicker if they feel they have better head protection. For me it was the other way around - I was taking more risks by skiing faster, therefore I decided to wear a helmet.
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PP, helmet are very light, so the increase in mass is small unlike with motor racing helmets. Your helmet might help if your head connects with a rock during a tumble.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 24-02-06 16:03; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar.org.uk, the earflaps of modern helmets allow 97% of sound to pass through them. Goggles reduce peripheral vision regardless of whether you have a helmat on.
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PP, I use the same brand of helmet as rob@rar.org.uk, I think. I prefer to take out my ear pads, so there is only a mesh covering my ears. I have found that I can hear more, than when wearing a wooly hat. It took me around a week to get used to the "extra weight" feeling. I don't believe that I ski any faster with a helmet on, but my head definitely does not get overheated, and (oddly) my feet seem warmer
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FAQ
Grrrr... now you're showing off.... I get it enough from the other guys in the office who are off skiing, without this sort of comment ! ( currently NOT snowboarding, due to new born baby ! ) - Wife has given the go ahead for a long weekend in late march thou, bless her ! 