 Poster: A snowHead
|
In looking up some info on La Rosiere developments in another thread , I came across this telegraph article which had some interesting stats about number of guest bedrooms / piste length etc and it got me thinking.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ski/news/first-look-at-new-ski-area-in-la-rosiere-france/
So La Rosiere = 12,000 beds with access to 150 km piste (around 75 km French side so 160 people per km at maximum occupancy or 160 ppkm)
La Thuile = 2000 beds with access to the same 150 km area as La Ros (estimating 75 km ish on Italian side = 27 ppkm)
VDI + Tignes = 56,000 beds with access to 300 km piste ? 187 ppkm
Does anyone have (or can they post here) information on guest bedrooms for a specific resort along with data on piste km / no. lifts?
Might be a good way to help plan trips - especially around busy periods...
Me - I am looking at La Thuile for Feb half term !!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@sheffskibod, I would think that beds/uplift/hour more important. If there are 250kms of piste and one old slow two man chair running at 250 p/h, for 2,000 beds, not everyone will get to ski in a given day...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @sheffskibod, I would think that beds/uplift/hour more important. If there are 250kms of piste and one old slow two man chair running at 250 p/h, for 2,000 beds, not everyone will get to ski in a given day... |
Good point .
Espace San Bernado (La Ros and La Thuile combined) = 38 lifts and 58,000 people per hour uplift capacity. 14,000 beds. 4.14 lifts per hour per person?
Espace Killy . 82 lifts . 145461 people per hour. 56000 beds. 2.60 lifts per hour per person...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
A crude estimate, but interesting. How many lifts per hour needed?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| A crude estimate, but interesting. How many lifts per hour needed? |
None if you have skins is the wrong answer I guess.
Actually even the formula of lift capacity per bed is probably not that helpful if the nature of the lifts is different, a resort with lots of nursery lifts that are short but high capacity and take even beginners 30 seconds to ski down will look very good whereas a lift that gives over 1000m vertical of varied skiing will disperse people well because it will take them ages to get back to the bottom.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| T Bar wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| A crude estimate, but interesting. How many lifts per hour needed? |
None if you have skins is the wrong answer I guess.
Actually even the formula of lift capacity per bed is probably not that helpful if the nature of the lifts is different, a resort with lots of nursery lifts that are short but high capacity and take even beginners 30 seconds to ski down will look very good whereas a lift that gives over 1000m vertical of varied skiing will disperse people well because it will take them ages to get back to the bottom. |
I would disagree since nursery lifts (typically drags) have a low uplift rate per hour whereas fast chairs / gondolas - a high uphill capacity.
Anyway - it was only an idea and a crude calculation - this place is full of critics . If you have nothing to add - why bother piping up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| A crude estimate, but interesting. How many lifts per hour needed? |
I would use the figures more as a rough comparison...
So on this basis , one could assume that Espace Killy might be busier on any given day than La Rosiere / La Thuile .
Next Feb HT - virtually everyone is off on holiday at the same time. Just might sway some people to avoid the big french resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@sheffskibod, I think you sort of could assume that, you probably want to bring in your kms of pistes actually as if the EK has average pistes that are e.g. 3 times as long (holding all else equal) then things are beginning to balance out.
Or of course, if many EK skiers (probs not so important for 1/2 term) are all off on big tours off piste using one early lift to get started...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I have no stats, but we were amazed by the lack of queues and empty pistes in La Thuile over Easter, with La Rosiere being only slightly busier. And this was with blue skies and fresh powder on the pistes. The much more interesting skiing and better restaurants are on the Italian side in my opinion.
I guess Feb half term would be busier, but still a great option I would say.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ski Amade = 760km pistes, 365,000 people/hour, 97,250 tourist beds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Speed of lift doesn't necessarily equate to high uplift rate. The fastest lifts of all are cable cars which exceed 10m/s but have a low per hour rate. In fact to reduce queues you probably want a slow moving lift with a very high capacity eg. a fixed grip chair with hundreds of carriers like Marais at Tignes !
The easier solution is to ski late in the season when everything is open but few people are around, having given up after mid March 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Interesting concept. You might have to add a factor that takes into account a resort's proximity to major towns in order to account for the day trippers. I assume that Flaine would suffer more than VdI for example.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Valluga, I can't imagine many places being that busy over Easter. Verbier and Chamonix weren't...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
You also need to account for everyone measuring piste length differently - length of pisted snow, cumulative total length of all possible runs, or skied distance. 1km of snow that splits in to 'a' and 'b' options around a tree can be either 1.01km, 2km, or 4km - or I guess 8km if you combine cummulative total length AND skied distance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
@Mjit, being why I said it was a crude estimate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @Valluga, I can't imagine many places being that busy over Easter. Verbier and Chamonix weren't... |
Easter Monday Verbier was very busy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@T Bar, I stand corrected, it wasn't tho' on Easter Friday. Mind you, I don't think that was a local holiday.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Interesting concept. You might have to add a factor that takes into account a resort's proximity to major towns in order to account for the day trippers. I assume that Flaine would suffer more than VdI for example. |
That would be very true of many Austrian resorts that have a high proportion of day trippers.
| under a new name wrote: |
| @sheffskibod, I would think that beds/uplift/hour more important. If there are 250kms of piste and one old slow two man chair running at 250 p/h, for 2,000 beds, not everyone will get to ski in a given day... |
It depends whether your enjoyment factor is being more effected by lift queues or numbers of fellow skiers on the pistes. IMO the latter has more impact (if the queues are not excessive)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @T Bar, I stand corrected, it wasn't tho' on Easter Friday. Mind you, I don't think that was a local holiday. |
Can't speak for the rest of the weekend as we flew in on Sunday, the resort was much busier generally than any other April week I've been there, though the slopes quietened down after the Monday with slightly murkier weather but still good skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@T Bar, my guess is that it's cos it was the first properly spring day/weekend of winter...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@Drammeister, but at 250/h uplift and 2,000 people, not everyone's guaranteed a run (max being 2,000 in an 8 hour day...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @Drammeister, but at 250/h uplift and 2,000 people, not everyone's guaranteed a run (max being 2,000 in an 8 hour day...) |
But that’s not a realistic situation. Most of the time too many people on the pistes is more of a problem that lift queues IMO
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Drammeister, now I see your point. Yes, pistes seem more crowded when busy than eg 1990 when lifts were slow, you might still not queue, but still spend relatively more time on a lift.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Or here you could crowdsource the direct data. All members name the resort they were at on (say) Easter Saturday and how many minutes they had to queue at the base station.
Too late now but a fun project for next season? First Saturday after Christmas, first Saturday after New Year, Saturday before Mardi Gras, Easter Saturday. Of course it would still vary by resort according to which resort got better snow, but it would be closer to the direct question you want to answer?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @T Bar, my guess is that it's cos it was the first properly spring day/weekend of winter... |
Might well have been.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Orange200 wrote: |
| ...how many minutes they had to queue at the base station. |
Humm, does this skew things too much in favour of the big, usually French ski in/ski out resorts where you have a lot of 'villages' uploading to the same ski area, against valley village resorts where you might just have one or two villages uploading. Yes queuing for the first lift is an important measure but so is the queue for each chair once you get 'up there'.
Maybe just total lift capacity? Though then that could be a few new, fast chairs but still leave you with some old, slow ones with long queues in critical places...
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
If you had Ski Tracks (or a similar app) on, you could work out the proportion of the day you are in queues, on lifts or skiing. On just standing around waiting for a faller, or slow skier and the time in bars/restaurants.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alagna has 350-500 beds and a huge ski area (forget about the km of pistes!) - great value!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I've just done it for a day at the Steinplatte.
It was very quiet so not much queuing!
Skiing 43%
On lifts 31%
In restaurants/bars 22%
Lift Queues 3%
Waiting for kids after ski school 2%
The queueing times may have been a bit higher in reality as the app only splits things up into 2 min slices and most of the queues were less than that!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
Alagna has 350-500 beds and a huge ski area (forget about the km of pistes!) - great value!
|
You could say the same about Vaujany
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
You would also need to consider the layout.
Whilst Paradiski may look on the face of it to have a better capability than Espace Killy, anyone who has been near Roche de Mio in February will tell the ratios mean nothing. That's because the lift up it can have over a thousand people queuing at 10am.
The comparison with EK would be the Olympic, but I've never seen it that bad and the uplift rate is several multiples of Mio.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
What are you trying to find here? I think it is either minimum queueing time, or minimum people on the piste together with you. I guess the latter is close to impossible so we can try the former. @Drammeister seems to have a good basic result.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
@sheffskibod, it's a nice idea to have measures/indices, this is part of my day-to-day work in research. And it's fun. And you rightly acknowledge limitations. Let's think of Trois Vallee ... there are hidey-holes all over the place which people don't know about, and areas where people congregate, and mad pinch-points - i.e. there's a lot more than piste length re the resources at a given resort - but you know that.
So you rightly acknowledge that the measures are faulty; a three-lift village resort with no-one on it and a couple of b&bs will come out loads better on your ratios than a huge resort area. And such areas might not be good for an entire week or two-week trip. And it depends what you want to do - one resort near us has five lifts, massive pistes, and a HUGE area of accessible Japan-like forest, with extraordinary opportunities for first tracks in winter dumps.
So it's a nice idea, but no substitute for proper knowledge of what goes on where, when and how, at a specific resort.
I have experience in a medium-sized Swiss resort of a family of four off-piste maniacs who WILL NOT tell us where they go. They just say 'we're off to the stashes' and then disappear...and come back exhausted at the end of the day. No amount of wine, torture, blackmail will reveal the location. I know where it is vaguely...but they smile sweetly and say 'no way...'.
Over the season (trips to one location in the Swiss Alps two weeks at Christmas, one week at half-term, two weeks at Easter, a couple of sneaky long weekends to chase the snow) we now do a lot of small road trips from our base accommodation to small resorts which give us no queues, free parking, lovely friendly pisteurs, and acres of empty pistes. This helps local economy, but you do need a car. We drive for maybe 45 mins to each, but ski things which have been called 'hidden secrets' in isolated articles in magazines over the years - FallLine covering Val D'Anniviers for example.
Switzerland has a 'cold beds' discussion running at the moment - many resorts have loads of second-home accommodation owned by wealthy foreigners, but no one actually there....
Indices are interesting, and do measure something, but local knowledge trumps them....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| valais2 wrote: |
@sheffskibod, it's a nice idea to have measures/indices, this is part of my day-to-day work in research. And it's fun. And you rightly acknowledge limitations. Let's think of Trois Vallee ... there are hidey-holes all over the place which people don't know about, and areas where people congregate, and mad pinch-points - i.e. there's a lot more than piste length re the resources at a given resort - but you know that.
So you rightly acknowledge that the measures are faulty; a three-lift village resort with no-one on it and a couple of b&bs will come out loads better on your ratios than a huge resort area. And such areas might not be good for an entire week or two-week trip. And it depends what you want to do - one resort near us has five lifts, massive pistes, and a HUGE area of accessible Japan-like forest, with extraordinary opportunities for first tracks in winter dumps.
So it's a nice idea, but no substitute for proper knowledge of what goes on where, when and how, at a specific resort.
I have experience in a medium-sized Swiss resort of a family of four off-piste maniacs who WILL NOT tell us where they go. They just say 'we're off to the stashes' and then disappear...and come back exhausted at the end of the day. No amount of wine, torture, blackmail will reveal the location. I know where it is vaguely...but they smile sweetly and say 'no way...'.
Over the season (trips to one location in the Swiss Alps two weeks at Christmas, one week at half-term, two weeks at Easter, a couple of sneaky long weekends to chase the snow) we now do a lot of small road trips from our base accommodation to small resorts which give us no queues, free parking, lovely friendly pisteurs, and acres of empty pistes. This helps local economy, but you do need a car. We drive for maybe 45 mins to each, but ski things which have been called 'hidden secrets' in isolated articles in magazines over the years - FallLine covering Val D'Anniviers for example.
Switzerland has a 'cold beds' discussion running at the moment - many resorts have loads of second-home accommodation owned by wealthy foreigners, but no one actually there....
Indices are interesting, and do measure something, but local knowledge trumps them.... |
Great post , many thanks. I guess ultimately I want a great feb half term destination without nightmare queues!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
