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BASI Level 2: doable?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I've mentioned it in other threads but I'm hopefully working a season this coming winter. I'll be out for the traditional twenty weeks with any luck so should have plenty of skiing time.

I've had twenty weeks' skiing, most of it instructed or guided. Last season I was told by ze French instructors that I have all the basics but need to get some miles in, essentially.

My plan for this winter is to have two one-hour one-to-one lessons per week: is it reasonable to expect to be at BASI 2 standard at the end? I know this question varies a lot and I'll see if I can post a couple of videos. Has anyone on here done it and how did you find it? What would you've liked to know before you took the course?
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@boobleblooble,
Yes you should be good enough. And Ive done exactly the same whilst previously working as a barman in a big chalet.

Get your Level 1 in a dome this Autumn and then during the season try and get some coaching a few times by a BASI trainer (there are loads of BASI trainers work for ski schools such as BASS in Morzine and ICE in Val D Isere etc etc). Get the coaching in the quiet weeks.

Some Ski schools also run BASI prep weeks such as BASS Morzine so if you're working in a resort where this is happening try and join in with their Prep weeks if your job role/hours fit.

By getting your L1 in the Autumn before you head out to the Alps you can then do the 35hr shadowing required to get your L1 licence and then the further 35hr shadowing required before you're allowed to take the L2 course whilst you're in resort. Ski schools love assistance (shadowing) during the peak weeks such as new year and half term.

The shadowing can often be following a kids group at the back and picking up the little ones. Often Ive helped out certain ski schools around the busy dates and then got some free coaching in return when they were quiet.

Don't leave the shadowing too late. You will have enough to sort out going into the exam.

If you can do your homework in advance and figure out the BASI L2 strands and the standard required together with the standard you're skiing at then you will be well prepped going into the L2 exams. This is where 3 or 4 lessons spread out during the season with a trainer will help you in a big way.
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@boobleblooble, is your aim to become a ski instructor?
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@@247snowman, thanks for that. I can do L1 through the Army but that wouldn't be possible this year. As it's a two-week course it also covers the 35 hours of experience needed. The main thing is to get up to the standard this winter so that I'm ready to go in 2021/22. It's possibly a fussy question but are two hours of one-to-one lessons OK or is that more than necessary?

@Themasterpiece, maybe: I'd like to see how far I can get. If anything it will certainly improve my technique.
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If you will be in a resort for the winter, it might be an idea to try some ski racing. In France, you can do a short timed GS or SL with the ESF for example. Normally this is done once a week for < €10. You might also be able to find a resort club to ski with. It would be in French obviously, but much, much cheaper than using BASI instructors.

My personal opinion is also that the BASI 'style' of skiing (especially those weird looking short turns) holds back trainees when they get to higher levels that require e.g. Eurotest passes. Doing a season would be a great chance to see how the continentals do it too Madeye-Smiley

I've also seen the Army skiers up close on a few occasions- some really committed folk there, looks like loads of fun to get involved in. Rumour has it you can be trying a super-G after a few weeks on skis Shocked
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@JamesHJ, yes join the local ski club. The only caveat is you have to do things the BASI way but you can get technical exceptions if you are good enough.
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@JamesHJ, +1. Practicing and racing (at a very very amateur level, I.e. flèche) gates improved my skiing more than anything else, and I’ve seen it have the same effect on numerous others. On one of our local ski club training trips we persuaded a bunch of the parents to get involved and after 3 days of gate training they were all vastly improved skiers.

My kids have private lessons in France and I try to join them for the gates day - they way it works in our resort (others may differ) is that the day before the flèche races, the stade is set up for training by the ESF, and if you’re entered in the races the next day, your instructor can use the gates with you for training. 4 hours of lapping the same course 20+ times can work wonders for your technique and confidence. If you timed your private lessons right, this might work for you.

It’s a bit depressing to be crucified by a ten year old tho. And you will be.
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Who needs to be crucified by a ten year old, when seven year olds can do it just as well?


http://youtube.com/v/04BqMw3M4jg
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@247snowman wrote:
@boobleblooble,
Yes you should be good enough. And Ive done exactly the same whilst previously working as a barman in a big chalet.

Get your Level 1 in a dome this Autumn and then during the season try and get some coaching a few times by a BASI trainer (there are loads of BASI trainers work for ski schools such as BASS in Morzine and ICE in Val D Isere etc etc). Get the coaching in the quiet weeks.

Some Ski schools also run BASI prep weeks such as BASS Morzine so if you're working in a resort where this is happening try and join in with their Prep weeks if your job role/hours fit.

By getting your L1 in the Autumn before you head out to the Alps you can then do the 35hr shadowing required to get your L1 licence and then the further 35hr shadowing required before you're allowed to take the L2 course whilst you're in resort. Ski schools love assistance (shadowing) during the peak weeks such as new year and half term.

The shadowing can often be following a kids group at the back and picking up the little ones. Often Ive helped out certain ski schools around the busy dates and then got some free coaching in return when they were quiet.

Don't leave the shadowing too late. You will have enough to sort out going into the exam.

If you can do your homework in advance and figure out the BASI L2 strands and the standard required together with the standard you're skiing at then you will be well prepped going into the L2 exams. This is where 3 or 4 lessons spread out during the season with a trainer will help you in a big way.

This is almost exactly the same advice I would give. I also passed L2 at the end of my first season after 38 weeks on snow, having "failed" the previous BASI Foundation course at 18 weeks. L1 is far less of a technical ability assessment than the previous mountain-based Foundation course so I would just get it out of the way. There's no better time to take the L2 course than when you are at your most fit, acclimatised and comfortable on a pair of skis, which is the end of a season. I think you will also find that the Trainers (Assessors) are naturally very supportive towards people that have shown a desire to work in the industry (by doing a season) so it really is the best time to show up.
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boobleblooble wrote:
@@247snowman, thanks for that. I can do L1 through the Army but that wouldn't be possible this year. As it's a two-week course it also covers the 35 hours of experience needed. The main thing is to get up to the standard this winter so that I'm ready to go in 2021/22. It's possibly a fussy question but are two hours of one-to-one lessons OK or is that more than necessary?

As above, I would make the effort to do it this year. I don't think you need two hours of privates a week, you just need to know what to work on. So get an overall assessment from a BASI Trainer at the beginning of the season in a 2-3 hour lesson and then go away and practise it. Do another assessment a few weeks later. If you're shadowing adult groups for L1/L2, you'll pick stuff up anyway and you may get invited to ski with the trainers after the lesson finishes.

I've seen some Brit ski schools do heavily subsidised seasonnaire's training programme where you'll be with people of similar ability for one/two afternoons a week. A program like that should be more than enough. They don't happen very often but you may also be able to shadow some higher level lessons/clinics. I remember getting a complete freebie park session and an off-piste day through shadowing. Local ski schools may also let seasonnaires just tag along for free if there are spaces in punter groups on the basis that you will give referrals to future clients where you work.

I see nothing wrong with the advice to join the local ski/race club for some variation but I would also add that you should get your personal technical training/feedback from BASI Trainers if it's BASI you plan to qualify with.
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Yeah my suggestion of trying to get out with a trainer is just so you can check to what standard you are skiing at. There is a type of Skiing (inputs and outputs) that BASI L2 is after and having a trainer check your movement patterns to check 'where you're at'.

You don't need a crazy amount of sessions with a trainer. Just maybe 4 spread out over the season plus maybe joining in with other BASI folk when you're out in the Alps.

Facebook groups are great ways to find other BASI trainees.
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What's the best way of assessing whether I'm improving then if I'm only seeing an instructor once a week?

The problem is that I'm expected to work until the end of April so I can't make any BASI courses. What you've suggested sounds sensible otherwise and there are plenty of BASI 1 courses in snowdomes etc this Autumn. Maybe I could tag along anyway just for some advice...

Out of interest what's different between the French and BASI ways of teaching and skiing styles? How does one get onto the French scheme?
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boobleblooble wrote:
What's the best way of assessing whether I'm improving then if I'm only seeing an instructor once a week?

The problem is that I'm expected to work until the end of April so I can't make any BASI courses. What you've suggested sounds sensible otherwise and there are plenty of BASI 1 courses in snowdomes etc this Autumn. Maybe I could tag along anyway just for some advice...

Out of interest what's different between the French and BASI ways of teaching and skiing styles? How does one get onto the French scheme?


Very loosely (and others will no doubt chip in), the BASI system is one which progressively teaches skiing, with a low bar at the beginning, and difficult tests at the end to establish equivalence with international quals. The French system demands a very high level from the beginning, and the passing of the "test technique". This is a timed slalom race at the standard of a good club racer. This allows entry onto a national degree program in ski instruction. Both systems are well suited to the appropriate average local skier.

Apropos style (and my opinion will probably diverge more from others now), the BASI system appears to put great thought into safe skiing under typical tourist resort conditions. Quite sensible, and there seems to be lots of emphasis on controlled use of rotation, edges etc. This seems to result in the (to me) funny looking short turns, and a general touristy/Mumsy look Very Happy

However, young French kids will be learning something completely different, which is how to carve with great efficiency, and to ski in a ski-racing style. This looks completely different on the piste, and is based on nothing except points which have been proven to work for racing.

Is there a link to the continual British moaning about Eurotests etc? I don't know, and now we are really speculating! snowHead snowHead snowHead
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@boobleblooble,

Ive worked full time jobs and made some courses during the season. Luckily there were courses running in the resorts where I was working and I just jumped in where I could. Not all the courses are basi run exams and not all courses are 9 to 5pm Mon to Fri.
Some Ski schools run training schools along side their normal ski school and run instructor training courses too....
see example here.....
http://bassprotraining.com/courses/
and
https://www.icesi.org/
those are just two french run things other ski schools and other resorts and countries will have BASI Stuff going on.
Other resorts such as Verbier have ski schools that run training programs along side their ski school business.
If your skiing for 20 weeks throughout the season you don't need loads of coaching. Just enough to verify where your at and where you need to make adjustments.
Self Check is a way to learn and get your mates to video you. Watch other good skiers, get out with other good skiers. Once you have done your L1 you will get the BASI manual an there is loads of content in there to help you.
If you can get your L1 in a dome I would recommend it to any decent skier.
In my view its really good value for the amount of coaching, video feed back, resources and stripping your skiing down to basics.
P.S Im a snowboarder who has done more on the BASI system than skiing but am dual qualified.

Difference between the french and BASI system.

BASI has 4 X levels of qualifications. (L4 ISTD to tach in France)
French has 1 x level of quqlificqtion. (3 x year training system to teach in France and inside of that period you have to pass the euro test. if you don't pass the euronext in this 3 x year period you are out).

Teaching in France is not for everyone as it takes a lot of time, effort and money to get to the standard but is where the best wages are.

You can enter the french system as an apprentice (stagiere) with BASI L2 and the Test technique (timed run on a tight slalom course). You can then work for one of the government recognised ski school such as ESF and Evasion, earn money whilst training and do the french exams on the french system.

regarding BASI qualls being recognised post Brexit negations and other negotiations are all a bit up in the air regarding reciprocal recognition and Im out of the loop on where things are at with all that.

Im not teaching at present and am full time back in the UK.

This is a generalisation but BASI way often includes specific movement patterns for lots of 'normal' skiers to pass BASI L2. Then from L3 and above not so robotic or systematic as to get the performance out of the skis to ski to L3 and L4 standard you have to have more input, individual biomechanics come into play to to influence the skis and get that level of performance.

By 'normal' I mean not ex racers. Ive been on BASI L2 ski course where the racers had to tone things down and lower their edge angles etc to produce the L2 criteria skiing stuff and get a pass. This was not for the whole course, just so the trainer/examiner could see the criteria for L2 being met. (clean Grippy turns from the fall line) the ex racers did the demos by toning down their turns and after that they could then get back on their edges and ski towards to L3 standard on the same course whilst the trainer focused on improving the 'normal' skiers who needed help to get to the L2 standard.

This is lifted fro, the BASI web site for L2.....
Basi L2 technical criteria....
Technical Assessment Criteria
Central Theme
Perform all phases of CT on terrain appropriate to clients needs.
Piste Long
​Perform cleanly carved turns on a blue piste.
Show a variety of turn radii.
Use effective posture and balance.
Piste Short
Perform grippy, (from the fall line), round, symmetrical, short turns in various corridors on a blue or easy red piste.
Show the ability to maintain a constant speed.
Use effective posture and balance.
Variable
Perform rounded, linked turns in a variety of conditions on a blue or red steepness slope.
Show a variety of turn radii
Use effective posture and balance.
You may have feedback and prompts from the Trainer.
Steep
Perform linked turns on a steep red or black piste.
Show the ability to control speed safely.
Use effective posture and balance.
You may have feedback and prompts from the Trainer.
Bumps
Perform continuous linked, skidded turns in easy bumps
Show the ability to stay in a narrow corridor
Maintain a constant speed.
Use effective posture and balance.
You may have feedback and prompts from the Trainer

https://www.basi.org.uk/BASI/Site_mock_ups/Alpine/Alpine_level_2/Alpine_level_2.aspx?WebsiteKey=211cffca-c436-4a06-844e-527af5a19586&hkey=12536def-ea70-4d52-9262-42597bbd68b4&Alpine_Level_2_Course=3

French way is that most french trainee instructors are fantastic racers to start with as they have be skiing in their local club de sport since they were 3 and they can ski gates well which ultimately bodes well for passing the eurotest.

Im not an expert on this as Im actually a better snowboarder than skier and am half way to the L3 on the board and did my skiing as the second discipline.

Check out the basi web site it shows the pathway from L1 to all the other Levels.

Going back to your OP. Yes a full season out in the Alps is a great way to make friends, have a life experience, become a better skier and pass your L2 but Id get the L1 before going out to the Alps.

Hope that helps.
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Thanks again for the advice: I really appreciate everyone taking the time to reply and often at length.

I'm going to smash out BASI 1 in a dome somewhere and do it early in case I fail(!) and need to retake. Then, there is at least one ski school that does a 'distributed' BASI 2 assessment at the end of the season, which is Mon-Fri then Mon-Fri again. That way I wouldn't miss transfer day. Hopefully I can blag my way around it with work but as it'll be at the end of the season I should've made some friends by then! The same school runs five four-hour classes in a row for ~£450 which I could do twice in the season, once at the start then again near the end. There would also be ample time for shadowing. There are options anyway.

I'm quite excited now, I would really like to finish the season with a good qualification.
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@boobleblooble,
Nice one. Can I ask which resort you are considering to live/work?

P.S. If you're in the UK maybe drop the guys at inside out skiing a message.

They do BASI L1 prep stuff in UK Snowdomes (Mostly down south).

http://www.insideoutskiing.com


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 17-08-20 21:22; edited 1 time in total
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@boobleblooble, that's a decent enough plan. You won't fail L1. I'd do the First Aid course and get your Criminal Record Disclosure done before you go as well. That way, your licence is issued immediately after passing L2. BASI courses are always Mon-Fri, the middle weekend is for extra practice/coaching if you've got a weak strand that you need to work on to get up to the level. Or for just having a blowout in the bar if you've had a stressy first week. Laughing
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@@247snowman, Morzine because there's a company called BASS there which do some useful courses that I can probably fit around work. Thanks I'll have a look at their site. BASI list lots of courses and Hemel and MK are the closest for me.

@Raceplate, good I hope not! I have a DBS already as I'm a paramedic: hopefully they'll consider me exempt from the first aid course too. Right I see, that gives me a bit more flexibility then.
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All sounds like a good plan! Good luck, and do post some updates throughout the season!
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I've got my progression videos here, showing how I didn't pass L2 on longs, but then how I improved.

edit to say worst case if you go for it and fail first time you'll still be a much improved and more informed skier.

things you may not have thought about, is can you do "perfect" snowplough turns? How about plough parallels? and be able to do them "on demand"? ie one run do x, next run do y

How is your bump skiing for L2?
Can you ski crappy off piste snow and make it look easy?

The exact specs are listed above, clean carved lines means exactly that, no skidding at all, and if the snow isn't too hard you should be able to see perfect lines in the snow from turn to turn.

When I did L1 there were only 2 out of 10 who passed (inc me) the rest were good holiday skis who couldn't do some specific BASI tasks to the required standard, even in a dome

Shorts -
http://youtube.com/v/wt_UsrA5Otc

Longs -
http://youtube.com/v/oNusod-6Roc
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and here is some L2 standard plough parallel


http://youtube.com/v/0iNvSrej_zc

and not at the standard bumps


http://youtube.com/v/P67Dwms-hIg
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More things inc some links.

Both are quite stressful, if you are at the level then it's less stressful! You also need to do some "homework" in the evenings when you have a lesson to deliver

Questions about the differences from 1 -> 2 https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=102297

My L1 thoughts https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=80968

Another L1 thread https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=94741
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Some other useful points for L2 may also apply to L1 if outdoors, it's not just about ability to ski like hirscher...

know about group management on the mountain
be aware/know of the fis rules
remind people to look before setting off
get on the lift last with groups
know the area if asked to navigate around (one candidate on my L2 took us the wrong way several times...)
take on board any changes the trainer suggests and try put them into action
be professional, turn up on time, no hangover
be prepared to feel terrible mentally mid way through (seemed to happen to me on L1 and L2 - combination of tiredness and trainer pointing out every flaw)
If you can get a basi manual before read it and make notes

Lastly, have you considered IASI instead of BASI, less politics, shorter L2 6 days vs 10, cheaper membership, most of the trainers are basi or ex basi trainers...
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Here I am at nineteen weeks, thoughts for L1?


BB Shorts
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^^That's closer to L2 than L1. You'll walk it. Practice your snowplough and plough parallel.
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You can see standards videos here: https://www.basi.org.uk/BASI/Courses/Alpine/Tech_standards/Alpine_technical_standards.aspx?WebsiteKey=211cffca-c436-4a06-844e-527af5a19586
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There are moments in the turns though where my tips are converging? The instructor at the time said I wasn't getting my weight over the downhill ski enough, nor were the edges over early enough.
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boobleblooble wrote:
There are moments in the turns though where my tips are converging? The instructor at the time said I wasn't getting my weight over the downhill ski enough, nor were the edges over early enough.
You're blending in a lot of rotation at the beginning of the turn, getting the edges to grip pretty late on and rushing the turn. On some turns you're dropping on to the inside ski too much, meaning your outside ski loses grip (which is why you occasionally don't have them parallel). Take a look at Greg's video above on his short turns progression over a number of courses, to see how he gets grip progessively earlier in the turn by blending in less rotation (less skidding) and more edge grip (so the skis start to run along their length, rather than move sideways or the tail skidding out) earlier in the turn.

I think the fundamentals aren't too bad and you're heading in the right direction with your skiing, but much closer to L1 than L2. No reason why L2 isn't achievable, and good to have a focus for whatever training you do.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@boobleblooble, this is the L1 level listed below, I don't think that vid would hit the "round parallel turns", meaning the tail follows the tip in a smooth arc with some grip! Although I'd assume within a week the instructor would get your shorts to the necessary L1 level.

*edit* @rob@rar has it spot on, if you can get to Hemel IoS do some specific BASI training course. Rob and Scott were very helpful for me during my journey.

Piste Short
Perform round parallel turns on a blue or easy red piste without traverse
Use a variety of corridor widths
Show the ability to maintain a constant speed
Understand how to achieve effective posture and balance
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Q from these videos and a bit of seeing BASI trainee skiers in the wild (well not too wild - mildly variable perhaps wink )

How much emphasis is placed on the physical separation of the legs and hence skis? It struck me from kitenski's "bad" bumps vid that he would have done much better on a naturally narrower platform?
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Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Q from these videos and a bit of seeing BASI trainee skiers in the wild (well not too wild - mildly variable perhaps wink )

How much emphasis is placed on the physical separation of the legs and hence skis? It struck me from kitenski's "bad" bumps vid that he would have done much better on a naturally narrower platform?


Hence why he failed Laughing

but yes it is discussed and on my courses "old skool" legs clamped together for short & long turns had to work hard to seperate the legs/skis. So appropriate width at the appropriate time is a simple answer Smile
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@rob@rar, I've sent you an e-mail.
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@boobleblooble,

Morzine is a good choice, lots of other BASI geeks. Check out Morzine BASI Geeks on Facebook
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@@247snowman, never knew that existed
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@boobleblooble, Morzine is a good spot to do training as loads of BASI types training there while they work in the Swiss side of PDS just make sure you get a good rain coat ! BASS (I trained with them) are one good option but you could also review PDS Academy Craig and James (I trained with them as well Wink) , All Mountain Snowsports (did a few days with James Crompton) , Mo Duffy at TSI (drank a bit with Mo Wink )

Each offer different programmes and some are more biased to the upper levels (PDS) and others do more flexible packages...
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boobleblooble wrote:
@rob@rar, I've sent you an e-mail.
Scott (skimottaret)picked that up first, and I think he's already replied. Let us know if you have any more questions.
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Sorry to hijack this thread a bit, but I know there's discussion of L1 at a snowdome here.

Does anyone know of any L1 training/assesments that is done on a series of weekends? I've seen it offered at Hemel but through the IASI, not BASI.

Apologies again for the thread hijacking, but it might also be useful to the OP.....
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@swskier, thanks. I should be able to get the time off to do it straight off however. It's just easier that way!
ski holidays
 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@swskier, all BASI L1 courses I've seen have been over a week. Inside out have done specfic BASI training over weekends from memory....

http://www.insideoutskiing.com/snowheads/index.html
snow report
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
kitenski wrote:


things you may not have thought about, is can you do "perfect" snowplough turns? How about plough parallels? and be able to do them "on demand"? ie one run do x, next run do y


When I did L1 there were only 2 out of 10 who passed (inc me) the rest were good holiday skis who couldn't do some specific BASI tasks to the required standard, even in a dome


I agree with Greg.

When you think about it L1 already (in theory) qualifies you to teach on artificial slopes so you need to be of a standard above the average holiday skier. You have to be able to teach the basics correctly and in the BASI way. We had this debate a few months back with pros vs. ski instructors but at the end of the day they are different, if overlapping, skill sets.

There may be an argument that people who've been skiing a long time have more trouble adapting to what is required of BASI.

You've only got 5 days on the course to get up to standard.
ski holidays



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