Firstly a stupid question - if ski boot fit is sooooooo important, why do hire shops just take self reported shoe size and give you the first boot they come to on the shelf and expect it to be fine?
Secondly having eventually saved up enough to buy my own boots, and knowing that a fair proportion of my skiing would be touring, and that I can't afford different boots for different conditions, I booked a fitting with a boot fitter with a good reputation for touring gear, and bought a pair of La Sportiva Sparkles. I specifically asked for something that would be OK for touring and piste skiing, and was told that for a touring boot these would also perform well for piste skiing (with the proviso that I wouldn't be able to use them with normal alpine bindings).
I'm pretty happy with them, and have skied in them for approx 7 weeks now, both touring and piste skiing. I am a reasonable skier, happy on piste on reds and easy blacks and OK on mellow off piste, but I struggle with more challenging conditions and terrain, so I've had several weeks of instruction over the last few years to help me improve. Generally though it is "the fear" that is holding me back (I've been reading all the current posts on fear with interest).
The last two courses I've done have been "learn to ski off piste" and "all mountain development" courses, and on both of these I have been told that I would do better with normal alpine boots as "touring boots are too soft". Neither of these instructors actually looked closely at my boots, so I don't know if this is a sweeping generalisation or not.
According to this website my boots are 110 flex and "very stiff":
I don't understand why, when almost all the skiing done when touring is off piste I am being told when trying to improve my off piste skiing that I should get stiffer Alpine boots.
I trusted the shop where I bought the boots as they came highly recommended, and the information about these boots appears to suggest that they are fairly stiff - but I don't know if all that is just sales talk.
I also have a lot of respect for the instructors I've had, and given I've had the same two comments from two different instructors it has got me wondering whether I should save up again and buy a pair of alpine boots?
Any helpful comments gratefully received.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
What issues did the instructors identify? I would have thought a too soft boot would be an issue in mank/chopped snow and on ice or hardpack. Can't see it mattering much on spring snow or powder. Obviously as you go steeper, gravity has more of an effect, so you may want a stiffer boot for that type of skiing.
I'm assuming that the instructors were concerned about a lack of control or precision and feel a stiffer boot would help? In general the skills developed on-piste are the same as those used off piste so maybe they feel your boots are holding you back in some way?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I ski plenty of downhill (inc. piste) in touring boots, and never once had a comment suggesting it was holding me back. And I've certainly never felt so myself. My boots are pretty stiff too, and a huge improvement over my old, soft, alpine boots. If any instructor did comment I'd tell them that I love my setup, and I find it much more agressive and direct than my old 'alpine' set up.
I'd ignore the comments - the person who can best judge is yourself. Do you feel they work for you? Can you feel any 'sloppiness' anywhere, including connection to the skis?
If you are happy they work, then stick with them. Don't waste money on more boots - use it for lessons and courses as you have been doing.
The flex indexes quoted by boot manufacturers tend to be a rough self estimation rather than a true comparison.
Touring boot manufacturers tend to over egg their boot flex ratings.
e.g. K2 Pinnacle 130 is seen as a 115 boot in this comparison and the Tecnica Cochise Light 120 is seen as a 100 boot although the Tecnica Cochise Pro 120 is seen as a true 120 boot.
Are you skiing on touring skis or alpine skis with touring bindings?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I’ve got Tecnica pro lights and the 120 flex seems right to me, certainly a lot stiffer than two 110 rated boots I’ve used previously. However I did add the Tecnica Cochise power straps to replace the simple straps that the boots came with (presumably a weight saving step too far by Technica?)
To the OP, your boots should be plenty stiff enough, maybe your instructors are attributing other problems to the boots? Having difficulty keeping weight over balls of feet and pressing shins?
After all it is free
After all it is free
I have a pair of Scott Cosmos II which are 125 flex and a pair of Atomic M110 (110 flex). The Atomics are far stiffer.
The Scotts are comfy sure but I don't particularly like skiing steeps with them.
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The la sportiva's are a dedicated touring boot, if you spend most of your time touring with a bit of piste and lift served off piste - fine. If you spend most of the time skiing off lifts there are better choices.
I have the mens version and like them but just use them for touring. They are known to be kind of mid range stiffness in the touring boot spectrum.
The list shows the Spectre (men's version of the Sparkle) as being a 90 flex.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Oceanic, thanks, the comments below the link confirm my experience of adding a booster buckle to the Pro Lights. Might a similar solution work on the Sparkles? (Awful name for a female targeted boot!!)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Ask a ski instructor about boot flex and my guess is that they would come up with a definition something like 'you need a boot which stops the knees flexing further forward than the toes during the completion phase of the turn'. ie A definition based on optimum downhill performance.
Ask a ski tourer and the definition might be something more like 'the range of movement in ski mode should be less than the range of movement of the skier's ankle'. ie a definition based on achieving maximum uphill performance, while preventing achilles injury on the descent.
Given that we spend most of a touring day going uphill, it is a totally valid viewpoint to choose a boot based on the ski tourer's definition, and to take lessons with the aim of learning to ski as well as possible on softer boots.
If you take the alternative approach of owning two pairs of boots, that's valid too, as most people spend more of their time skiing on lifts than they do touring.
The above makes me wonder...
Who would ski down hill better when touring, a skier who always used soft boots, or a skier who normally used stiff boots, and only wore softer boots when touring?
The final option is to tour in the new breed of stiffer touring boots, that's valid too, so long as you are fit enough to manage it.
Edit: Spelling
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 20-02-18 1:52; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
On the rocks wrote:
@Oceanic, thanks, the comments below the link confirm my experience of adding a booster buckle to the Pro Lights. Might a similar solution work on the Sparkles? (Awful name for a female targeted boot!!)
If I really wanted to make a Spectre/Sparkle stiffer I think I would go with the option of an overlap liner and a Booster Strap...
(Although if I wanted them to be stiffer I'd be tempted to just sell them and buy a pair of stiffer touring boots).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
As a general point, it's also worth mentioning the fact that tongue style touring boots don't have as nice a progressive flex that an overlap boot does (not quite sure of the sparkle's construction) so it does make "going for it" a little harder.
Having said that, I plumped for some Freedom SLs a while ago and they cover all my skiing needs. I never tour for that many day in a row anymore so I can cope with the weight, they are comfy, ski really well so am confident on the steeps and having a touring boot on all the time makes the conversion from skiing for me, to skiing with my eldest, to sledging etc a lot easier and comfier.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks everyone, lots to think about there.
davidof wrote:
What issues did the instructors identify?
I can't remember the exact issue that started the discussion, but I'm generally told I'm not dynamic enough and much too upright and stiff.
DB wrote:
Are you skiing on touring skis or alpine skis with touring bindings?
I've got a pair of Rossignol Bandit B3's with touring bindings, but for my most recent trip I was persuaded to hire some Elan Ripstick 94s, they took me the best part of a day to get used to, but I was happy with them after that.
On the rocks wrote:
Having difficulty keeping weight over balls of feet and pressing shins?
I do sometimes feel I can't get onto the front of the boot, particularly when I'm nervous.
sorry for the small text - too late for me to be able to work out what I'm doing wrong.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Another thing that can be done to improve he performance of some touring boots is to upgrade the liner (when the stock liner is not very good). Putting a booster strap and swapping out the stock liner from my Dynafit TLT6 Performance touring boots really made them ski better (intuition touring liner). Having said that at higher speeds, in heavy snow and on an icy pistes my Head Raptor140 RS apline boots are clearly a much better tool to ski down. One of the head alpine ski boots weighs more than both touring boots though.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
cavegirl99 wrote:
On the rocks wrote:
Having difficulty keeping weight over balls of feet and pressing shins?
I do sometimes feel I can't get onto the front of the boot, particularly when I'm nervous.
These drills (as posted in another thread on Snowheads) really helped me to stay out of the backseat recently. Esp the drill where you pull the feet back.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@cavegirl99, might be wrong but based on the weight they look like touring boots rather than freeride boots, which while still having a walk mode, are more similar in feel and flex to a classic Alpine boot. IMHO freeride boots are a much better choice for the occasional tourer than a full on touring boot which sacrifices too much downhill performance in return for light weight and large range of motion for the uphills
It’s not just the flex value but the boot construction. I had a 130 Dynafit Titan (Touring/Freeride) and it flexed nothing like a 130 K2 Pinnacle (Freeride), which is better but still not the same as a 130 Nordica Grand Prix pure Alpine boot. How can a boot built for light weight and large ROM flex as well as something built for downhill?
Yes I had a pair of titans too and the flex left a lot to be desired. The Titan dates back around 8 years, I thought the flex of newer touring boots was better.
Would an inferior flex pattern cause ski instructors to say a boot was too soft esp on an offpiste trainning course?.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I am not an instructor but I can’t see how the technique issues mentioned would be fixed by stiffer boots, unless the current ones are so floppy that the OP doesn’t have the confidence to get forward etc
After all it is free
After all it is free
It's clear that a touring boot will never match an alpine boot for downhill performance.
My guess (and it is a guess) is that the ski instructors think the boots are holding you back but it's mainly in your head. The solution is proabably one shot of Stroh 80.
Maybe you could rent a pair of top quality alpine boots one day to compare?
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@cavegirl99, what bindings are you using? If they are pin-tech it’s likely they are tipping your boots forward. If so then shimming the toes will give them a more upright stance and will help you press forwards more more. I have 8mm shims (green Ikea cutting board) on my Dynafits and some use more than this.
I very much doubt the problems described are anything to do with boot softness and consider it more likely to be lazy thinking by the instructor.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
For a few years I did all of my skiing and learning in very soft (flex 70) Scarpa Denali touring boots. I found putting plastic spoilers at the back of the boots helped me to get my weight forward, but moving onto stiffer boots helped more
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altis wrote:
what bindings are you using? If they are pin-tech it’s likely they are tipping your boots forward.
I've got Fritschi Diamir Explore bindings on my skis, not sure what bindings were on the skis I rented, but they weren't pin-tech.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
fixx wrote:
I ski plenty of downhill (inc. piste) in touring boots, and never once had a comment suggesting it was holding me back. And I've certainly never felt so myself.
It all depends on how you ski and what equipment you are using. Pretty much anything is good enough to slide down the hill (I'm actually best proof of that, as I can easily get down icy Kitzbuehel downhill course during race in pair of Dynafit TLT6 boots and race GS skis), but for real skiing, touring boots just don't cut. As soon as you are more aggressive on skis, and you ski stiffer skis, there's simply no touring boot that would be stiff enough. My normal alpine boots are Rossi Hero World cup in 92mm last and ZC flex, while my touring boots are previously mentioned Dynafit TLT6 Performance (with custom carbon tongue). Dynafits aren't anywhere near stiff enough to properly drive FIS GS or SL ski, and honestly, when I go touring with my Rossi Super7 HD RD, I really miss whole bunch of stiffness with Dynafits, but I normally charge quite aggressively, even if on pow ski. On the other side, Dynafits are perfectly fine to drive softer skis like Soul7 or Seek7 that I also use for touring.
I agree that TLT6 are anything but super stiff boots, but anything that is at least sort of comfortable for going up for hours, is super soft compared to real alpine boot. So for me personally, there's simply no compromise possible. For touring you need touring boot, for lift assisted skiing (on-course or off-course) you need real alpine boots.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
4. Alpine with walkmode -Lange XT 130 Freeride Tour, Technica Zero G Guide
5. Alpine
6. Race Boot
Someone who only does short side-country tours (max 2 hours) and mainly skis on piste would be probably be better with 4 as a one boot solution.
A normal recreational skier wanting one boot to do it all (albeit at a compromise) would be probably be better with 3 as a one boot solution.
Good two boot solutions would be (6 or 5) and 2.
Very good summary and fully agree with the recommendation - although not sure why on piste bias necessary for reco 1. Same holds if you ski predominantly off piste. And you could add K2 Pinnacle 130 to your list - they are a great 1 boot quiver!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
BobinCH wrote:
Very good summary and fully agree with the recommendation - although not sure why on piste bias necessary for reco 1. Same holds if you ski predominantly off piste. And you could add K2 Pinnacle 130 to your list - they are a great 1 boot quiver!
Yes I suppose someone who skis mainly offpiste but only does short tours could also opt for 4 although 3 might be a better choice if they are likely to do longer tours in the future.
A lot would also depend on skiing style and skiers weight, some ski tourers prefer a softer (then a 120/130 flex) boot for skiing offpiste. (e.g. one of the best loved touring boots is the original orange non-RS scarpa mastrale. Not because it is super stiff but because if flexes so well for a touring boot.)
The thing with touring boots is you're asking far more than just being good at the skiing down. You'll spend a lot more time walking/skinning in them than skiing. Having a stiff high boot that's great for skiing the steep and narly is all very well but they'll rub your heels, shins, soles and insteps raw in no time. If you really are more interested in touring rather than just off-piste skiing then there's nothing for it but to persevere and learn to ski those more challenging, and even the down right terrible, conditions in your touring boots. On the other hand if free-riding is more your thing then look at changing your boots, there really is no such thing as a do it all boot.
I'm very much a tourer so I ski everything in orange Maestrale's with Scott Fly'air skis and vipec bindings there all I have. I just accept that I have to work harder some of the time.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I've got myself some dalbello lupos which are 3 class. They are raichle derived so arguably have a less compromising walk mode than many (stiffness comes from tongue not spine which you have to break for walk mode in conventional designs). I already had some intuition powerwrap aftermarket liners (thick and stiff). When I use them in the boots I think they ski like stiffish alpine boots (class 5). Use the stock (touring) liners and remove the tongues and they skin like class 2 (albeit with extra faff at transitions). Pretty good one boot / two liner compromise.
Very good summary and fully agree with the recommendation - although not sure why on piste bias necessary for reco 1. Same holds if you ski predominantly off piste. And you could add K2 Pinnacle 130 to your list - they are a great 1 boot quiver!
Yes I suppose someone who skis mainly offpiste but only does short tours could also opt for 4 although 3 might be a better choice if they are likely to do longer tours in the future.
A lot would also depend on skiing style and skiers weight, some ski tourers prefer a softer (then a 120/130 flex) boot for skiing offpiste. (e.g. one of the best loved touring boots is the original orange non-RS scarpa mastrale. Not because it is super stiff but because if flexes so well for a touring boot.)
Yep that review is spot on. You can also add the dalbello lupo 130 C. The wife’s got a pair and also a 4.
Jedster, alas no 2kg boot will ever be a 2! And no freeride boot a 5.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@BobinCH,
its 1800g with the tongues and 1600 without. 1600g boot is squarely a 2 IME.
And if you put stiffer thicker liners in a boot they definitely stiffen it up. we can argue about whether that gets you to 4.5 or 5 but it would cast no light on the situation!
Although I have lighter Dynafit touring boots I also have a pair of Salomon Quest Max 130s, a great all round freeride boot to power fatter skis and fine for tours up to 2.5 hrs. They are only 160g per boot lighter than my Redster piste boots but they are nowhere near as stiff in flex, nor as precise, which for off piste makes them perfect (for me).
People just need a boot quiver
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
jedster wrote:
@BobinCH,
its 1800g with the tongues and 1600 without. 1600g boot is squarely a 2 IME.
And if you put stiffer thicker liners in a boot they definitely stiffen it up. we can argue about whether that gets you to 4.5 or 5 but it would cast no light on the situation!
Sally Mtn Labs are 1580g and the classic 3. A 2 is 1250 see TLT7 or Sparkle. A 4 is a 2kg plus 130 flex. No 1600/1800 boot is either a 2 or a 4.5 - more like 3 and 3.5.
But ski on whatever works for you. That’s all that matters
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Poster: A snowHead
