So I’m pretty upset with Norrona right now, and actually I’m pretty gutted because I love the brand and I used to love their products but here we go, what should have been a simple satisfying wash and reproof has turned into real heartache…
I purchased my lovely bright blue Lofoten Gore Tex Pro Jacket in October 2013.
I wore it for two weeks skiing in Madonna di Campiglio in January 2014 and was very careful to keep it clean (bearing in in mind it cost a fortune!) And I only ever used it for skiing, as I have other cheaper Gore-Tex jackets for day to day use. The rest of the time it has spent in my wardrobe in a suit-carrier to protect it from dust.
Due to the birth of my daughter we were unable to go skiing in 2015, but have booked to go in February 2016. With this in mind I decided that I would wash and reproof the Lofoten, as at the end of the second week skiing I noticed the jacket wetting out on parts of the sleeves and the shoulders.
Being a gear freak and a lover of technical gear I set out to do a proper job, having washed and reproofed my technical jackets (not the Norrona!) many times before in the past. I’d like to think I know what I’m doing and I’m pretty well read on DWR etc.
I started by cleaning out my washing machine. I ran an empty hot wash cycle with some NicWax Tech Wash in the drum, and I also made sure I thoroughly cleaned out the detergent drawer. The next step was to put in my Berghaus 2L Gore-Tex Jacket that I wear most of the year round. I washed this in TechWash according to the instructions and then when finished, and still damp, I treated it with NicWax TX Direct Spray on (which I normally do on all my outdoor waterproof garments). When this had air-dried the next day, I flicked some water onto the surface and observed that all of the water beaded nicely. A quick shake of the jacket and all the beads just fell off as they should.
I then decided to wash and reproof my Noronna Lofoten. I followed exactly the same procedure as above. Washed in NicWax Tech Wash in a clean washing machine, whilst damp I sprayed with NicWac TX Direct Spray on and then air-dried. The next day I tried the water flick test to see how it beaded. To my dismay only 50% of the water actually beaded up, the other water droplets immediately darkened the fabric behind and when I shook the jacket to shake of the droplets, the ones that beaded had fallen off as expected, but the ones that wetted out left wet water drops on the surface of the material.
I would not expect a jacket of this quality, price and materials to perform so poorly. What is going wrong here? I used plenty of spray on DWR. I did not scrimp on the application as I wanted the best job possible, and have done the same on a previous jacket days earlier (with great results, and generally I reproof my gear frequently and fully understand the process and technologies involved).
This has baffled me somewhat. The jacket is hardly used and has been reproofed and yet is wetting out.
So I sent the above tale of woe to Norrona direct through their website. They sent a pretty glib 2 liner email back saying “heat often sorts these problems out, stick it in the tumble drier, or iron it on low”.
Knowing that NicWax is not Flurocarbon based and doesn’t require heat activation, I still thought “oh well let’s give it a go” so I stuck it in the drier on low for 20mins as my care label suggested.
Keen as mustard I did another water bead flic test and guess what….same problem; most of the water wetted out the fabric behind and did not bead properly…
So then I emailed Norrona back to tell them it hadn’t worked and they sent me the GoreTex care instructions off the web:
“Different material react different to treatments.
We consider the instructions directly from Gore Tex as more valid then NicWax.
This is copied from: http://www.gore-tex.co.uk/en-gb/support/restoring-water-repellency
How to Restore Water Repellency
GORE-TEX® outerwear:
Machine wash your garment as described in the wash instructions. Line dry your garment, or tumble dry it on a warm, gentle cycle.
Once it is dry, tumble dry your garment for 20 minutes to reactivate the durable water-repellent (DWR) treatment on the outer fabric.
If unable to tumble dry, iron the dry garment on gentle setting (warm, no steam) by placing a towel or cloth between the garment and the iron. This will help reactivate the DWR treatment on your garment’s outer fabric.
When the factory applied treatment can no longer be reactivated, apply a new water-repellent treatment available as a pump-spray product to the garment's outer fabric.
But the most important, is the jacket leaking through? Do you get wet when wearing the jacket in the rain?
Yes, yes I thought, I know all this. Didn’t you read my first email properly?!
I then mailed them back and told them that I’d done all this and that the jacket is not performing the way it should saying that it is wetting out and will not be able to breathe. I’ll be wet from the inside out.
Noronna replied with…..silence.
One last plan of attack. Called NicWax to speak to them, they first off told me that I’d used the wrong product (!) and that I should have used their wash-in, which is plain wrong for GoreTex 3Layer, and then suggested that despite the jacket being really new and hardly dirty at all, that despite following their own instructions on how to re-proof using their own products, that I’d somehow sealed in dirt and that’s why it was wetting out. They then told me I’d need to dry clean the jacket. When I suggested this was wrong and could I come and show them as I’m pretty local to them, they got very defensive and said I’d have to fill in a form and send it into them.
Snow and Rock Brighton understood when I phoned them, and said they’d try and send it back to Norrona. I’m not hopeful based on Norrona’s web customer service.
I’m gutted. All I want is for my £500 ski jacket to bead water like it should. Not much to ask.
If NicWax or Norrona are reading, please help me out here or I’ll be shouting from every tree top, ski site and review page about how let down I feel.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The fact that the jacket started wetting out after less than two weeks careful use suggests to me that something was amiss. I have ancient - and far less expensive - jackets which have performed far better than that.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Tell me about it! My Berghaus 2 layer Gore beads beautifully!
Speak to GoreTex directly - they have their own (very impressive) warranty for anything using their membranes.
I'm surprised though.
I've used mine a LOT more than you have (the reason I paid the price was literally BECAUSE I wanted a jacket that stands up to lots of use and abuse without wearing out, or needing to be 'protected from dust' - I really don't understand that logic?!), and it still beads up. Been washed once this summer (left it at my gf's and she decided it was too dirty with oil stains etc), still beads fine, still beaded fine before that after 200+ (probably more) days use.
I'd speculate that there must be some issue with the DWR if it really started wetting out after just two weeks, though bear in mind that even when it wets out you'll still be perfectly dry inside.
I'd also email Norrona directly explicitly saying that there IS (not you think) a problem with the DWR, as all of your cheaper jackets from less reputable brands stood up far better to use, and that wetting out in two weeks is ridiculous for the price of the jacket.
You know what, I've been looking longingly at the Arcteryx Sidewinder SV thinking to myself, I should have brought that... I bet that wouldn't wet out
@Matt Ok I'll try Gore Tex if I don't get much luck through Snow and Rock or Norrona direct.
I may well start off being dry inside, but a "wetted out" jacket will mean my sweat can't escape and I'll be wet from that instead. Might as well wear a bin bag!
I wanted to protect it from dust as I wasn't wearing it for a while and I didn't want it getting dirty and affecting the DWR! Didn't bloody help!
Ps Cool Instagram page
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 29-10-15 22:46; edited 1 time in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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pam w wrote:
The fact that the jacket started wetting out after less than two weeks careful use suggests to me that something was amiss. I have ancient - and far less expensive - jackets which have performed far better than that.
My Haglofs from Sportprsuit does this and I was going to reproof it. (since I've had a Paramo form 1998 I low about their proofing) Now worried.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Unfortunately the time to have done that is at the time when the defect manifested itself; when the jacket had been used for less than two weeks.
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pam w wrote:
Unfortunately the time to have done that is at the time when the defect manifested itself; when the jacket had been used for less than two weeks.
Yeah but I just thought I'd wash and reproof it... That it'd be better than before. I've done it so many times on other jackets.
Both Norrrona and Gore have 5 year warranties, so hopefully not too late. Any sane person looking at the jacket would think it was brand new, it's in that good condition ( obvs having not been worn much!)
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Ok an update.
Noronna have replied this morning saying that they'd been in touch with Gore and that Chris from Gore would give me a call today. That's better!
I also emailed Gore myself today with the whole story so hopefully someone will look into my case in more detail.
I'll keep you all posted
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@The Danno, I know you don't want to hear this but I'd have had it back at the retailer after 2 weeks.
My not very expensive Patagonia H2No is now on season 5 gets around 50 ski days a year and and has been washed and re-proofed once...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I had this happen with a brand new Salomon jacket the first time it got wet, not impressed. Couldn't be bothered with all the faffing of sending it back and Salomon didn't want to know. Having reproofed a couple of top of the range Aqua bivvies, I reached for the 'Fabsil GOLD'. The 'GOLD' is for breathable membranes.
The jacket went from zero beading to ducks back in one coat. Redid all my gear after that and the missus cheap non waterproof mittens she likes immensely. All of it was beading water at this point. Didn't affect the breathability at all and I do sweat.
I'll be redoing all the gear again in a few weeks and have complete confidence in it. Cheaper to brush it on than spray.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@The Danno, good luck - Gore have a rep for being really helpful.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
clarky999 wrote:
I'd speculate that there must be some issue with the DWR if it really started wetting out after just two weeks, though bear in mind that even when it wets out you'll still be perfectly dry inside.
Bear in mind that GoreTex is entirely reliant on the DWR to maintain its breathability. Once the surface stops being water repellent and the material starts to wet then surface tension will cause all the little holes to block and the thing won't breath. You'll soon get damp inside from your own perspiration.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@altis, all true, but being realistic, GoreTex isn't breathable enough anyway to keep you dry if you're working hard.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ok so I had a very long chat with Chris at Gore...
He said I did everything ABSOLUTELY right and that he wished that most of the people he spoke to knew as much as I did. Oh and contrary to NicWax stating I sealed in dirt and I should have used a wash in, he confirmed that I was correct to use the spray on and its was incredibly unlikely about sealing in the dirt!
So, firstly I am vindicated in my actions. Now onto the resolution.
We had a long geeky chat about long chain fluorocarbons and the fact that various manufacturers had changed to use more environmentally safe products, even the flourine based ones, had since 2011 (?), changed to shorter chain molecules which are slightly better for the environment. He stated that many manufacturers had had issues moving to this as it doesn't perform as well as the nasty old stuff! Interesting!
So he's going to send be some flourine based Grangers DWR to apply to the jacket and then he said see if that made a difference.
If it doesn't work he asked me to send the jacket in to undergo some testing in their lab. If it seems like its faulty then it may be replaced or refunded. Great service!
FInally he said - Dont worry, we'll sort this out one way or another. We wont leave you unhappy!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@The Danno, good to hear!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@The Danno, good news. Gore usually have exceptiional customer support - that's part of what you pay for.
Those Gore guys were in the Lon Arc shop the fact they don't have to push a brand item lets them speak freely. As they don't care which brand the jkt is its all about the goretex type of fabric that works for your use .
The rumor is Arcteryx and Goretex are getting in bed and coming up with a new product so soon everyones £250-£600 jkts and pants may be old news .
Arc also sell american Revive X DWR spray the fact the gore guys sent Grangers spray to the op is interesting.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 9-10-16 11:29; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Was reading this and got to thinking.... I've got a few goretex jackets and I've never washed any of them, nor have plans to. Have washed pants due to grubby ankle cuffs etc but have never re-proofed them and have never had a water seeping-in problem/ goretex issue. That said I'm more keen to ensure water gets out than in, and underarm vents are a must for me, I run hot especially when climbing. Come to think of it my 8 year old Arcteryx Beta is looking a tad grubby but who cares, it works! I've also got Norrona, Haglofs and Sweet Protection gear and they keep well away from the washer too.......in almost 30 years of skiing I think I've skied in the rain 3 days and its not a pleasant experience, never had wet knees/ backside on the Haglofs pants I've washed............ strange!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Tirol 164 wrote:
Arc also sell american Revive X DWR spray the fact the gore guys sent Grangers spray to the op is interesting.
Please explain this a bit more, I'm intrigued.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Revive X is a north American dwr spray on product, heat activated like others on the market it was previously not on sale in the uk .
Now Arcteryx has hooked up with them and its on the arc site so I imagine its on sale now in the uk this season .
Liquid soap is a uk made tech wash option and well priced.
You get a larger volume/bang for your buck so its good for months in resort washing socks and bases by hand or lots outdoor kit at home.
Its not a strong cleaner for oil or black Tbar or Poma marks on light colours (light colours like white/cream are really a mistake in a outdoor clothing learning curve .)
Liquid soap flakes has none of the bad stuff in it (ie detergent)... that washes away DWR and blocks GTX pores which is the very important bit..
Any oil marks your going to need another stronger detergent too spot/scrub clean thoughly first then use liquid soap to remove that detergent and finally rinse more than normal .
Your washing away detergent after washing dirt its a three step process with rinsing last if the item is badly ingrained with dirt/oil.
Last edited by After all it is free on Sun 9-10-16 19:05; edited 7 times in total
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Yeah Revive X its a McNett product I think.
Anyway I best stick to Graingers as part of the process I have to follow with Gore. Ultimately if it doesn't work the jacket is going back to their lab for further testing.
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Thanks for all the links everyone. You've made my boring commute a tiny bit more bearable!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@The Danno, what was the end of the story? I have a Dainese goretex jacket and it is filthy - dark stains on white and I am terrified of washing it but have no choice me thinks. Should I follow your original actions, use Grangers or just live with it?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
So the end story was that it was a lot better.
It still shows the odd spot here and there but the beading with grangers extreme repel and a good tumble dry for an additional 20mins after its dry really helps.
So I'm a lot happier using grangers. Just be careful with the stuff as it's not good for you.
I'd wash yours, probably twice after having cleaned out the detergent draw and run it on an empty wash with some grangers performance wash. Then make sure you put it on another rinse cycle before treating and drying.
Let me know how it goes.
PS put some performace wash on the stained areas directly and give it a good rub in before sticking it in the machine.
A clean jacket will perform much better, so the key is making sure it's really clean before starting.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Snowsartre, Clean it with Nikwax appropriate product for your jacket, typically tech wash.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@The Danno, @Kamikaze Pete, Thanks both for the advice, will post how it goes once the products arrive. The arcteryx nu water repellent is currently out of stock but have got liquid pure soap flakes on order but seriously thinking of swapping for the granger's performance wash. Have also bought granger's down jacket cleaning wash as have several of those and the wife's hums under the arms!!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Snowsartre wrote:
@The Danno, @Kamikaze Pete, Thanks both for the advice, will post how it goes once the products arrive. The arcteryx nu water repellent is currently out of stock but have got liquid pure soap flakes on order but seriously thinking of swapping for the granger's performance wash. Have also bought granger's down jacket cleaning wash as have several of those and the wife's hums under the arms!!
I've tried Graingers performance wash and it is fine (had a Paramo Jacket for years and flakes are fine) but I used the Graingers Performance repel and it was better than I had but still a few bits wetted out. As far as I am aware, the Xtreme spray is better. I believe the XT refers to the old style Fluoro based solution (C6 C8?) that required heat activation and is better at replacing the DWR. My Jacket is Haglofs top of the range but bought from discount-site so no surprise it was wetting out of the box.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
pam w wrote:
The fact that the jacket started wetting out after less than two weeks careful use suggests to me that something was amiss. I have ancient - and far less expensive - jackets which have performed far better than that.
This. I also have a Norrona Lofoten jacket, and frankly I wore it for two whole seasons (about 40 days of skiing) before it needed reproofing.
I would make more of this when returning the jacket, than the re-proofing issues.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
WL Gore used to have a great policy on this (pretty sure it wont have changed)... return item to the retailer and if the retailer says it is not a problem you can insist on it being sent to Gore for testing in the lab....trouble is when they test it in the lab they often "destroy" the product in the process and erm..... oh well you better have a new one
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@CEM, think that still exists as I had some shoes that leaked replaced under their lifetime warranty as they said they'd cut them open to work out what went wrong!
Always buy Goretex stuff now great customer service!
@Markymark29, so you sweat a fair bit and haven't washed your jackets, ever!! Gondola rides with you must be fun
@kitenski, layer system mate, base layer and mid layer gets washed plenty. Top layer is a shell, how does that get sweaty? Underarm zips for venting etc. I've never washed a goretex jacket and dont intend to!
@Markymark29, only joking but a single base layer in spring or walking uphill does make my shell sweaty plus I get sun cream around the neck of my jacket.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@kitenski, Ha ha, st tropez tan version? That's what buffs are for, keeping jacket clean.....goretex jackets are designed to wear out your chin. Every time I go skiing I come back with a red raw grazed chin.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Markymark29 wrote:
@kitenski, layer system mate, base layer and mid layer gets washed plenty. Top layer is a shell, how does that get sweaty? Underarm zips for venting etc. I've never washed a goretex jacket and dont intend to!
after 5y of non-washing my goretex jacket I did so this summer. Product and garmet instructions were contradictory - will see on the slopes of how it goes - hope it only snows (plentifully) during nights and bluebird skies during the day ... but still a bit worried if I wil have the protection I had
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FWIW my Arcteryx gets washed every season, water still beads on it after 5+ years
I know what you mean about the chin Mark!!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Harry Flashman wrote:
pam w wrote:
The fact that the jacket started wetting out after less than two weeks careful use suggests to me that something was amiss. I have ancient - and far less expensive - jackets which have performed far better than that.
This. I also have a Norrona Lofoten jacket, and frankly I wore it for two whole seasons (about 40 days of skiing) before it needed reproofing.
I would make more of this when returning the jacket, than the re-proofing issues.
Older products have a different DWR treatment. They used to be a "longer chain" molecule than is allowed today. Newer "short chain" molecules are less effective but are much more eco friendly. There's progress.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
with oil stains etc), still beads fine, still beaded fine before that after 200+ (probably more) days use.
