Hello, new member here, and new skiier with just 8 days of skiing under his belt. Getting back into it at 31 after not having skiied since being a kid.
Everything is actually going relatively well, I took about 10 hours of lessons so far and not doing too bad. There is one main problem that keeps popping up and that is my ski boots.
I bought a pair of Atomic Hawx R100 after consulting with a local bootfitter and they seemed to be a good fit initially.
After slowly starting to get more into serious/parallel skiing, they revealed their shortcomings because I am feeling a lack of control and have a feeling that something is "off" in my skiing and things being far more difficult than I feel they should be.
I spent a day on Nassfeld with some more experienced skiiers and having barely survived the reds there I skiied at about 80-90% of my capacity most of the day. This caused my 5th metatarsal (the bone on the outside of your foot - pinky) to become severely bruised and painful even for walking for a couple of days, as this is a bone that protrudes significantly on both my feet but more so on the left.
I saw another bootfitter since I suspected that the Atomics were ill-fitting and after running a series of measurements he told me my feet are significantly different in size (one 42 and the other 43), and that my current boots are too wide. So I tried about 10 low volume boots in the store and the fits just kept getting progressively worse so I ended up buying the first boot that I tried which is a Nordica Pro Machine 110. It seemed to fit the best of all in the store and I even put in my Sidas insole in there and everything seemed fine. Well after having them on at home for about 30 mins I noticed that the entire bottom of my feet started burning and my toes were going numb, and this even lingered for some hours after taking the boots off. It's strange as I don't really feel any tightness and I made sure not to buckle the toe buckles too tightly at all in fact they are quite loose.
Not really sure what to do right now because I am sure the bootfitter would ask me if I have even skiied in them and to come back after I have done so - on the other hand is it really smart to go skiing in boots you can't even have on for 30 minutes without numbness? I realize they are brand new and probably going to go through significant break in but I am also scared of risking nerve damage if skiing in them for any length of time. I am thinking of taking them for a test run on saturday and simply unbuckling them every time I go up on a lift to try and alleviate some of the pressure and hope that after a few days they become pain-free?
It's really disheartening because I must have tried a total of 20 different pairs of boots in total and out of those the two that seemed OK and that I actually bought are still giving me significant issues and seems like I will need to either have them punch out or modified significantly regardless of the initial fit seeming good. It also seems like I will need to have my boots canted since my neutral stance has my skiis on their inside edges, I'm really unstable at high speeds and drag lifts are killing me which points to a kind of A-framed stance, and the boot fitter even confirmed that I am way too far on the inside of my shells even with the canting adjustment on the boots tilted all the way in (which is almost useless).
Any advice is appreciated. I really enjoy skiing but having such difficult feet and almost impossible to find a boot that I feel happy in is really putting me off. Thanks!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Welcome to snowHeads and what a painful first post !
I can sympathise, having suffered from similar issues with the protruding bits of both little toes & my left big toe. During my first week on real snow with rented boots I’d happily hacked them off (spoiler - I did end up having surgery on all three).
Fortunately, the third pair of rental boots had gel wedges in the hurty places & saved the rest of the week. One pair of Salomon X-Pro100, three shop re/fitting sessions, plus a couple of rounds at home with a hot air gun & plastic inserts mostly sorted the fit, but it still rubbed badly & I had to de-boot over lunch.
There’s a fair bit more about hows & whys of thermoplastic & surgery, but it’s definitely worth taking photos of the effect they have on your feet & being assertive about any fitting guarantee/offer made when your purchased them.
Good luck!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@powderpunk, where are you based? Where did you get the boots from?
Wearing boots around the house is not the same action as skiing in them.
I expect someone with more knowledge will be along soon
Reading between the lines a bit here but... What did your boot fitting involve other than trying different boots? Was there any thermo moulding of boots or liners. Any assessment of tight areas (given your "protruding" bits). We're you shown how the close the buckles and in the right order correctly? (there are good YouTube videos).
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I’d be concerned about how good the boot fitter was if he got me to try on 20 pairs of boots. What I want from a boot fitter is for him to measure my feet in all dimensions, ask about my skiing experience and preferences then to select a pair of boots which are right for me. At that point any customisation can be done, such as stretching the shells to accommodate any protrusions, custom footbeds to stabilise the foot, etc. How a boot feels in a shop is a very poor indicator of how it is going to feel when you are skiing. Maybe ask for recommendations for experienced boot fitters to help address the problems you’re having?
If your stance is very knock-kneed, the canting in the boot shell is not there to correct it but to accommodate it. If you naturally stand on the inside edges of your skis it is possible to change your boot/binding/ski alignment, but it’s not by adjusting the boot canting.
all in all you are going to encounter lots of mixed views about buying boots in resort, buying them in the uk buying them for XYZ shop the most important part is getting things sorted with a trusted fitter whoever that is, there are good and not so good around the world home and away
the first part of the equation is that you have tried on 20+ pairs of boots, i have a range of 60+ models in my store and of that range i would expect only 2-3 to be suitable for a person (there may then be variants like a crossover boot or a different flex)
for the second fitter to comment that the boots were too wide is a positive, for him/her then to just bring you out a load of lower volume boots to try until you found what was comfortable is the fools errand, the next red flag is that they said one foot was a 42 and one a 43, ski boots arent measured in EU or UK or US sizing, they are measured in mondopoint (cm) and should be measured for as such because the conversion between all the imperial sizes and metric of mondopoint really is a long way out.
did they perform a shell check, did they assess your foot and ankle range of motion and discuss their findings with you, the symptoms that you allude to are all common when someone has a restricted range of motion at the ankle joint and then has nothing done about it.
it could be a simple fix, it could be that the boot is completely wrong, i would guess too big rather than too small
your sidas insole? was it an off the shelf product or custom made? if it is custom how was it made seated or standing? this process can determine the effectiveness of the device
in terms of the cuff alignment of the boot, that adjustment is designed to match the shaft of the boot with your lower leg, not to correct anything, it is often not enough but it gets you in the ball park, a well made footbed will get you closer and then if needed underboot canting (true canting) is what gets you on the flat ski, sometimes that is in a slight A frame, sometimes it is with the idea parallel shins
all in all there are a lot of things to consider in a boot fit and it looks like they may have covered about 20% of them, for the vast majority of people there is a good solution, for some there is work to do and for others their biomechanics just aren't really designed for skiing and they have a struggle
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I'm no expert, but might be best to slow down a bit (in more ways than one)! You've skied 8 days, you're already comfortable on reds, you've bought 2 pairs of boots, and you're skiing at 80% all day?? That's very speedy progress!!
Find a boot fitter you trust (whether that's one you've already seen or not) but don't be in a rush to buy a third pair of new boots. And lower your expectations a little; if you're a beginner, and skiing hard with people more experienced, of course something is going to hurt. If you're in pain, take the afternoon off!
After all it is free
After all it is free
holidayloverxx wrote:
Wearing boots around the house is not the same action as skiing in them.
It sounds like you may have fallen 'victim' to getting your boots from a "boot seller" rather than a "boot fitter". The former are generally cheaper but just give you a load of boots to try on/pick from while the later, people like @CEM who will knows their stock and how to examin your feet and from that will give you a very short list of boots to try on - initially for them to see how they fit rather than for you to judge if they are comfortable or not.
That said @holidayloverxx is correct. I've got a pair of Head boots that are quite painful to stand around in, the turn of the tongue really pressing into the top of my foot but they aren't designed to be stood around in and as soon as I assume the bent knee skier's stance and my heal properly engages in the pocket all that tongue/top of foot pressure dissapears - and if it comes back when skiing I know it's because I'm getting lazy and not bending my knees
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
powderpunk, we all sympathise.
Getting a ski boot is a stressful event. I dread the day my wonderful 10 year old Head boots give out.
As Mjit suggests: there are those who want to sell you a boot and take your money, and those who want to sell you a boot and make you happy.
To be a good boot fitter like CEM you need to have gone to Hogwarts. It is a special art.
You need to find a wizard.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I'd take them back and go to a proper bootfitter. Post up here what area you are in and folk will suggest an well respected fitter local to you.
My experience is that they will properly measure and assess your feet, then select a shell shape/size/width that will be suitable and work from there to fit that boot further to the exact intricacies of your foot ie heat molding, other adjustments etc.
Trying on 20 pairs of boots that haven't been fitted to your feet just seems mad.
New boots will feel too snug to start with as a proper fitter will fit this way to accommodate the liners 'packing out' or getting worn in a bit after the first few days of skiing. This may mean that sitting in them at home for a while will not be comfortable. Properly fitted ski boots should be comfortable when you are actually skiing!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Mjit wrote:
holidayloverxx wrote:
Wearing boots around the house is not the same action as skiing in them.
I've got a pair of Head boots that are quite painful to stand around in, the turn of the tongue really pressing into the top of my foot but they aren't designed to be stood around in and as soon as I assume the bent knee skier's stance and my heal properly engages in the pocket all that tongue/top of foot pressure dissapears - and if it comes back when skiing I know it's because I'm getting lazy and not bending my knees
I've found over the years that a significant proportion of "boot problems" can be resolved with a correct(ed) stance and better technique. Not saying that's the case here, but I've known people, including myself, who always had painful feet when skiing, but who once they've taken lessons and are skiing more 'correctly' all the time magically find that their boots are no longer painful.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Jonpim wrote:
powderpunk, we all sympathise.
Getting a ski boot is a stressful event. I dread the day my wonderful 10 year old Head boots give out.
As Mjit suggests: there are those who want to sell you a boot and take your money, and those who want to sell you a boot and make you happy.
To be a good boot fitter like CEM you need to have gone to Hogwarts. It is a special art.
You need to find a wizard.
I kind of did worry about the end of my old boots but a visit to a 'good boot fitter' took all that stress away. Cup of tea, comfy chair, boot fitter explaining everything as we went along. 3 pairs of boots tried on (plus one slightly lower volume for reference), custom footbeds and I walked away a happy skier with a shiny new pair (and an empty wallet). A week already done in them with no issues, 3 more weeks to go this season and I can't foresee too much trouble
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Stick with it - I have a big bunion that has caused problems in the past but well fitted boots sorted the problem. The extra ‘magic sprinkles’ (with a bit more cost naturally) is adding ZippFits. Boots on 1st thing, few clicks to tighten during the day. Only loosen at end of the day.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Firstly, when it comes to feet its a lot like wet shaving. Every face is different. Every pair of feet is different (and even in those pairs, both feed are often not the same!). So what works for you might not work for others and visa versa!
Secondly, wearing boots around the house isn't the same feel as being in bindings on skis. The only real thing you are getting out of wearing them around the house is bedding the liners in a bit, finding what buckle setting work and getting used to the feel of them.
When you're on skis, your weight will be much more forward getting your heels back in the rear of the boot. That is when then they need to feel comfy.
Thirdly, start with easy to fix stuff.
What ski socks are you wearing. When I inexperienced and naïve I wore the thickest pair of long socks I had thinking that was the done thing. Very quickly I realised the error of my ways. A bit of research and I ended up with a pair of Falke SK2s. They improved the comfort and fit no end. I now ski in the slightly thinner SK4s which are amazing socks. For me the right amount of cushioning and warmth.
Getting a good pair of ski socks is very important.
Next, I'm sorry if I'm telling you to suck eggs but how are you buckling your boots up. Again, before I knew better I was making a right mess of that as well and still see people doing it. I was clamping down all my buckles as tight as possible. So it's the same for if you have 4 or 3 buckles, but the most important is the one that closest to your ankle. The one that anchors and locks in your heel to the back of the boot. Start with that one, get it tight. Then do the one above it, to get your leg/shin in nice and secure to the top of the boot. Then, the buckles across the top of your feet need to be only tight enough that you can flick them down with 1 finger. They are only really there to keep the snow out. All our major blood vessels and nerves in our foot run down across the top and if we clamp down tight with those buckles we can restrict blood flow. The numbness and burning sensation you have are symptoms of too much pressure across the top of the foot.
I followed these 2 videos and it made a huge difference. Its now the routine I do every time I slip my boots on.
See how you get on with the above. If you are having issues still, then the next step (pun intended) would be to go to a well recommended boot fitter (search this forum for suggestions based on your location). Take the boots you have with you and have a honest open chat with your ability, how you ski, what progression you'd like to make etc.
It might be that you need a stretch in the toe box area. It might be that they are just completely the wrong size boots for you. And even brand! I know that Atomics fit me very well but Salomons not too much. A good boot fitter will take several measurements, and will have an idea of maybe 3 or so boots that should work as a start and then make adjustments from there.
No one (ok maybe 1 in a 100) has perfect, out of the box standard feet! Some people can literally fit anything. Most can't. My feet have various issues from years worth of abuse and injuries from rugby. It took me a good couple of trips with going back to the boot fitter inbetween to report back on how they are feeling before I got them properly tuned in. Now, I can wear them all day and not have to unbuckle them. They are like slippers. So the process is worth it.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Buy rear-entry boots.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
First of all thanks for the huge amount of responses, I am attempting to process it all.
I will try to reply to (at least) some of you.
@holidayloverxx I am in Europe, Croatia to be more specific. The first boots I bought here, and the Nordicas I actually drove 2 hours to a neighboring country (Slovenia) because I didn't like the approach of most of the boot fitters here. But it turns out it's not much better across the border.
@adithorp In both cases it was just 'put these on, see how they feel' - the first ones they molded the liners and the boots, the second one it was just the liners. I think I am closing the buckles correctly, generally I do the top one up somewhat to use it as leverage to push my heel back as far as I can, then the second one from the top down to secure my heel, and finally the toe buckles as lightly as possible just to keep snow out.
@CEM Neither of them did a shell check, I tried on all of the boots with the liners in, and the stuff like checking ankle RoM sounds like sci-fi around here - it doesn't seem that anyone goes that far with their expertise. The first insole was actually off the shelf and it did okayish in my old boots, yesterday I got a Boot-Doc custom made one (I was seated when they did it) and frankly it hasn't improved things much over the Sidas.
@PinkPig Oh I felt like I was fighting for my life on the reds, but it was a trip with co-workers and the first time I got to see a big ski resort like Nassfeld. On top of that I didn't quite know what I was getting into, but I went back to the blues since then and I'm taking things easier - no worries. I try not to get in over my head from now on.
@Jonpim Perhaps things are done differently in other parts of the world, but it seems that all boot fitters here follow a similar approach, one that doesn't leave people like me with very good results. It's basically selling you a boot that feels good in the store and telling you to ski it, and "come back if anything pops up".
@Fridge03 I have some FalkeSK4s but found going even thinner than that was better so now I have a pair of McKinleys, they're pretty thin. I thought about picking up SK6 or SK7 actually since I don't tend to have a problem with cold feet. I noticed the feet burning issue in the Nordica's is lessened with normal, thin socks, so probably using even thinner skiing socks would help, and seems to point to some pressure point induced by the liner. I tried heating and remolding the liner today with some padding added at what I felt were pressure points but frankly it hasn't helped much afterwards. Far as tightening the boots that kind of more or less what I do as shown in the videos.
What I'll attempt to do is take these Nordicas out to the slopes tommorow and skii in them as much as I'm comfortably able to and see if they can be somewhat broken in, while taking breaks if the numbness gets too bad. Who knows, it may even not be an issue when actually skiing as some mentioned. If it really doesn't get any better I'll take them back to the fitter next week and see what they can do to fix them.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@powderpunk, Could just be that you have Hobbit feet!
I suspect that the make of boot isn't going to make much difference but a full and proper boot fitting experience might save the day. The crucial piece of the puzzle will be your natural (or neutral) stance and how your insoles, mouldings and other adjustments compensate or support it. So being seated for a custom fit is dangly bits.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
powderpunk wrote:
@CEM Neither of them did a shell check, I tried on all of the boots with the liners in, and the stuff like checking ankle RoM sounds like sci-fi around here - it doesn't seem that anyone goes that far with their expertise. The first insole was actually off the shelf and it did okayish in my old boots, yesterday I got a Boot-Doc custom made one (I was seated when they did it) and frankly it hasn't improved things much over the Sidas.
Sorry to say, but you didn't go to a boot fitters. You went to a sport shop that sells ski boots. If I were you, i'd drive back to that shop, return those boots, and find yourself an actual boot fitter and start the process again.
Don't ski in them as that may stop you returning them.
A proper boot fitter should know their stuff and shouldn’t have you have to try on more than 2-3 pairs.
In Norway they use a wooden stick to measure your feet - but get the size spot on and then shell check, size check, heat moulding, moulds for insoles, heel risers, 10 min stand in position and check for pressure points by taking boot and sock off to see what’s turned white/red and everything else including sending you for a lap of a run and back up and checking with sock off again before adjusting starts such as punching out etc.
In Canada, instead of a stick they use a laser scanner device but pretty much the same.
I’d expect to be there for 2-4 hours and try on 2-3 pairs of boots in that time at the most. Most of the try stuff on should only take 10-20 mins and the rest of the time is refining the boot that you choose.
Buying in resort is usually so much better than outside resort.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Problem is, where I live I don't have the luxury of boot fitter choice the same way that bigger countries do. There are 3 boot fitters in my entire country, I went to all three of them and they were all dissapointing in their methodology. They can heat liners and plastics, do punches and canting, but as far as their capability of finding and setting you up with a good boot overall, they all leave a lot to be desired.
And the most recent one in another country wasn't much better. So, I really don't have a place to go to other than just blindly trying my luck with the same people over and over again. The stuff you describe here as being good boot fitting, virtually nobody does and I haven't gotten a service like that at any of them.
Anyway, regarding the Nordicas, I went and skiied in them today since they were still the best of the bunch and I wanted to see what would happen when I actually skiied them. Interestingly enough, I didn't really experience the foot numbness the same way as I did sitting in them at home, however I still had: bad pain on 5th metatarsals on both side of the feet, numbness and pain at balls of the feet, and pain/strain on some arch tendons/ligaments.
That happened for about the first 3 hours. At that point I reflected back onto my skiing technique which is still developing and I have some really bad habits to iron out. One of them being that due to my limited ankle flexibility (which I now finally started working on) I achieve my "lean forward" by compensating with knees and hips, which is terrible. So I really focused on maintaining a much more relaxed and upright upper body with most of my lean coming solely from my ankles to the best of my ability (I will hopefully be able to improve this in the coming weeks) - and with this I found several things:
a) I had more stability at high speeds and was simultaneously moving slower and with more control in the same parallel stance
b) My turns started to evolve naturally from very Z-shaped, hockey stop turns into the more fluid, faster S-shaped turns that I saw everyone do but couldn't accomplish at all myself
c) I was getting far less tired and felt like I was skiing more efficiently
And best of all, the overall pain in my feet actually got BETTER as the day went on. My metatarsals stopped hurting so much, the tendon soreness disappeared, was only really left with some pain in the balls of the feet and that mostly when I sat on a lift. I attribute this to my heel being pushed further backwards into the boot which moved the protruding parts of my feet into a part of the boot which is wider and gave them more room.
So, a lot of this has to do with my poor technique as a beginner and due to some biomechanical limitations which can hopefully be corrected in the long run. That said I think punching out the boots to make room for the metatarsals, and working on the canting to fix my messed up stance would be very worthwhile and make these boots reasonably good for my skill level. They may not be perfect but I think it's probably the best I will be able to find for the moment.
You sound a lot like my neighbour, he has tried at least half a dozen pairs of boots this season alone, they all felt good in the shop and each pair was more expensive than the last. He is also a relatively inexperienced skier and has managed to injure himself twice this season. He is also talking about wanting a private lesson with my son who usually teaches advanced skiers and coaches at the local race club. What he really needs is to learn the basics properly and improve his basic stance and ankle flexibility. Once he has done this he will be in a much better position to get boots fitted and be able to evaluate the fit something like correctly. I seriously doubt anyone with only 8 days of experience is going to benefit from a well fitted boot unless they have severely abnormal feet.
Edit: Having actually just read your last post this is what you seem to be finding anyway.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
with only 8 days skiing I wouldn’t even contemplate buying my own boots - but now you gave them I’d suggest getting a fitter in resort to look at them rather than the people you bought them from
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Poster: A snowHead
