 Poster: A snowHead
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Hey, first post on this forum, just looking for some technique advice.
Short background bit; started ski-ing this winter, been to Glencoe five times, Xscape once. No lessons, just been watching Youtube videos and getting random tips off mates (probably the worst thing for technique?). Main hobby is downhill MTB, so I think there's a bit of crossover there, weighting pedals and tyre edges vs feet and ski edges, could be wrong though. Fairly gung ho attitude to crashing (snow is softer than roots, rocks and soil!) so been doing blues and the occasional steeper bit.
OK, my problem. Found snow plough turns pretty straightforward and have been trying to get parallel, but with limited success. On steeper stuff (for me), my old-uphill/new-downhill ski seems to turn fairly well, but the tighter I try to turn, the more the old-downhill/new-uphill ski wants to run on and won't turn as hard as the other. I end up doing a vauge snowplow or at worst the tips cross. The way I tried to remedy this is to almost lift the offending ski off the ground and twist it towards the outside with my foot/leg. I feel this is just an elastoplast though and is pretty mince technique.
On flatter stuff/greens where I'm generally pointing straighter down the hill and not trying to turn so tight, it is kinda similar. I think for a beginner I have a reasonable feel for varying the pressure on the turning ski, and can vary the turn radius like that. But that damn uphill ski! It just wants to sit and drag about in a vauge acute angled snow plough position, and I struggle to get the skis parallel. I tried to remedy this by rolling the uphill ski onto the pinkie-toe edge, but it didn't seem to help with getting parallel and on a number of occasions it felt like the outer edge of the uphill ski caught in the snow and spat me off, crashing to the inside of the turn.
I now realise that lessons are a good idea and I will get some instruction. However, for the moment, is this a common rookie error, and is there anything I can try to get that uphill ski parallel and tracking the downhill one?
Cheers
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As you suspect there is a simple fix, have some lessons! We could suggest various things you are doing wrong but without seeing you ski we'd me more likely wrong than right. And get some lessons soon, the longer you keep doing it the youtube way the harder your bad habits will be to break.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Taurig, you're almost certainly leaning inside the turn and probably backwards too so that the tail of the inside ski catches in the snow and stops you rotating it to match the outside ski. At your level, skiing on piste, 80% of your bodyweight (pressure) should be on your outside, turning ski as early in the turn as you possibly can. It is the complete opposite to what you would do on a bike when going round a corner so may feel rather strange.
Focusing on the inside pinkie toe is a very advanced technique that won't help you at your level because it's likely to just encourage too much pressure on the inside ski.
Of course, if you'd had any decent lessons you'd already know all this 
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| Raceplate wrote: |
Taurig, you're almost certainly leaning inside the turn and probably backwards too so that the tail of the inside ski catches in the snow and stops you rotating it to match the outside ski. At your level, skiing on piste, 80% of your bodyweight (pressure) should be on your outside, turning ski as early in the turn as you possibly can. It is the complete opposite to what you would do on a bike when going round a corner so may feel rather strange.
Focusing on the inside pinkie toe is a very advanced technique that won't help you at your level because it's likely to just encourage too much pressure on the inside ski.
Of course, if you'd had any decent lessons you'd already know all this |
I agree with both previous posts, take a lesson.
However Raceplate's suggestion that "80% of your bodyweight (pressure) should be on your outside (ski)" is misleading and incorrect IMHO.
The only true % than can be recommended is 50% balance on your left ski and 50% balance on your right ski in the transition between turns when both skis are flattened on the snow surface.
After that it's that great imponderable 'it depends'.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mike Pow,
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| After that it's that great imponderable 'it depends'. |
Well, that advice should certainly help him understand what to focus on to solve his problem.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It could.
It could turn him/her from a skier who is turn shape focussed always putting 80% of his/her bodyweight (pressure) on the outside ski regardless of the snow conditions and terrain to a skier who feels the snow and terrain below both his/her skis and transfers the appropriate amount of balance to the downhill ski to balance with the mountain at that moment in time.
But hey that's just one guy's take on all-mountain, all-terrain, all-conditions skiing.
Both of us think we have a pretty good idea of what's going wrong and what the solutions are but without seeing Taurig ski, the best advice I, you and davkt have given him/her is to seek the help of a professional.
And as Red Adair, the American oil well firefighter famously said,
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."
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Thanks all for the replies. I think it says it all when Raceplate said I'm probably leaning inside the turn, because I thought 'wait, you're not meant to do that?'; I suppose I really have very little clue what I'm meant to be doing. I'm definitely getting lessons now, just need to decide wether the convenient and weather-proof Xscape would be better than heading up North?
As a theoretical discussion though, if the inside ski should be weighted *about* 20% through an average pisted turn, what would be the symptoms of:
A) Too much pressure, not enough rolling onto edge
B) Too much pressure, too much rolling onto edge
C) Too little pressure, not enough rolling onto edge
D) Too little pressure, too much rolling onto edge?
I accept that by asking that I may have further exposed my lack of knowledge!
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Taurig, you're probably thinking too hard, there. And as davkt said, the longer you try to figure it out for yourself, the more deep-seated any faults will become. Lessons - probably indoors in the first instance - would be a good idea, to get the basics right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It does amuse me (and not in a good way) when people ask for expert advice and the response they get from Snowheads is effectively, "Go and ask someone else". Why bother having a forum if you're not going to use it as one? 
That's a rhetorical rant, BTW, before the thread gets derailed.
Taurig, to attempt to answer your questions, rather than dodging them:
Lessons in a dome would be better - learn the skills and movements in a controlled environment and then test them out in a variable environment (outdoors).
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| A) Too much pressure, not enough rolling onto edge |
Ski doesn't turn at the same rate as the outside ski; it feels 'stuck' causing you to cross your tips and fall over.
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| B) Too much pressure, too much rolling onto edge |
Ski turns sharply, unbalancing you and you fall inside the turn.
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| C) Too little pressure, not enough rolling onto edge |
Not much. You feel a little less stable but can still match the ski and finish the turn. (The 'picking the ski up' scenario is a variety of this - 0%/100% weight distribution - but is not caused by it. Picking the ski up is a quick remedy to A) usually.)
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| D) Too little pressure, too much rolling onto edge? |
Not much. The ski may 'catch' in the snow and doesn't feel smooth but it's not enough to make you fall over. I doubt you're experiencing this as I'm not sure it's possible at low speed.
If you want to watch youtube videos these are the best: https://www.youtube.com/user/elatemedia
Series 2 and 3 are relevant to the questions you're asking and will show you the correct body position.
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Raceplate, that's a great help. I'm fairly confident it's the 'A' scenario that's happening, which I'm trying to remedy by lifting the ski, at least on the steeper stuff. It doesn't feel at all elegant however. There's a style I see folk doing that I want to get to; upper body upright and stable, legs moving underneath side to side from the hips, bouncing between turns, skis really close and parallel. Don't know what that's called but it looks smooth and controlled.
Surprised at the recommendations for indoor tuition. Possibly because I also rock climb and indoors is generally seen as inferior to real rock. It does save a lot of hassle booking time off work and weather watching though.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Taurig,
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| I'm fairly confident it's the 'A' scenario that's happening, which I'm trying to remedy by lifting the ski, at least on the steeper stuff. |
I'm sure it is. It's caused by leaning into the hill or 'banking' rather than angulating - look them up.
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| upper body upright and stable, legs moving underneath side to side from the hips, bouncing between turns, skis really close and parallel. |
There aren't many situations on modern skis where you want your skis really close together and they're much more advanced - aim to keep them hip width apart at all times for now.
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| Surprised at the recommendations for indoor tuition. |
It's not a blanket recommendation; it's because of your problems/level and the alternative being Scotland. To use your rock-climbing analogy, the snow in a dome is likely to be superior to the snow at Glencoe. There's no question that skiing regularly in Scotland will make you a versatile and gnarly skier but that's because the conditions are extremely variable. That will help you develop your all-round skiing long term but at the moment you're probably focusing more on just staying upright on the slope than you are on your technique.
IMO, it's better to learn the correct technique in a controlled smooth snow environment and then learn how to adapt it for more difficult conditions outdoors. Have a few lessons indoors, sort yourself out so you feel confident that you know what you're doing and then go back to Glencoe to test it out in a real environment. Once you feel comfortable outdoors, continue to take more advanced lessons there.
If you'd told me the alternative was 2 weeks in Colorado, I'd have said go there.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ok, I'm back! I've been reading this site http://www.mechanicsofsport.com/ which I have found pretty useful. As mentioned above, I think one of my mistakes was to try to relate everything back to bikes, so because you weight the inside tyre edge to turn, weighting the outside ski is counter-intuitive to me.
So, going on that website, the ski with the most force in it will be the one that turns downhill. But, can someone explain what the driving force is for the unweighted inner ski to follow the outer perfectly parallel? If the more you weight a ski the harder it turns, logically it seems that the old uphill, new downhill ski will turn harder than the unweighted inner, and run into it. I'll admit to being a nerd so I like these things explained rather than just doing them, it helps!
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You know it makes sense.
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Taurig,
When using the MTB analogy don't think about where you weight goes onto the tyre (inside edge) but where it goes onto the pedals. i.e. equal when going straight down and a gradual shift of weight from one leg to the other when going through left & right bends. The quicker the turns the faster you shift the weight. It's not an on/off movement with instant 80/20% then 20/80% but a gradual ever flowing shift. The cranks on a bike force you to move your feet forward / back when shifting the weight - in alpine skiing you don't get this. Imagine that the pedals descend by weighting and ascend by unweighting in a vertical plane.
Your inside ski could be getting caught up for a whole host of reasons. As others has said it's hard to see what you are doing from a written description over the Internet. You might think you are saving a few quid by "teaching" yourself but chances are you are ingraining bad habits / techniques that will have to be massaged out later if you want to improve to a much greater level.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Taurig, there is more than one way to steer a ski around a curve. Don't focus solely on tipping the skis on to their edges. It is rare than this is the only steering element used to create your turns.
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Poster: A snowHead
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You'll be pleased to hear (or maybe not given I've skipped a few lessons!) That I've got a plough to parallel lesson booked for Fri.  Still interested in hearing the theory of why the inner should track the outer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Taurig wrote: |
| Still interested in hearing the theory of why the inner should track the outer. |
Does it always, with millimetre precision?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Taurig wrote: |
| Still interested in hearing the theory of why the inner should track the outer. |
People don't ski exactly parralell all the time, "roughly paralell skiing" would be a better description. Expert skiers are not perfect but actually a lot less rough than other skiers. 
Numerous ways to stop the inner ski hitting the outer e.g.
If you get the inner ski in a groove, it will often track the groove. Converging skis are often caused by the skier putting the pressure onto the back of the ski (backseat skiing) and so the tip of the ski doesn't bite into the snow creating a groove and going round the corner but goes roughly straight on = crossing tips. Having vastly different edge angles can also result in crossing tips (inner edge angle less than outer). You can also slightly steer the inner ski to keep it out of the way. Pressure control also helps e.g. if your inner ski hits a small bump more pressure will be put onto the inside side and this could result in the arc the inner ski wants to follow being made tighter. Absorbing this bump, trying to maintain a less erratic change in pressure should keep you roughtly parralell rather than it diverging your skis and spinning you around. It's also possible to carve two arcs where the outer arc has a slightly larger radius but the skis come back to approx the same parralell distance between each other in the transition. IMHO there isn't only one way to ski and no way is perfect.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Taurig
It is a common question by skiers at your level everyone wants to ski like a pro but you do not need to force the ski's parallel. At present keeping to the bike scenario you are pottering around on bike with stabalisers slowly raising them off the ground ( your snowplough "V" shape). Eventually you will be able to manage without them ie a bike with just the two wheels ( parallel). So would you honestly rip the stabalizers from under someone before they are ready or let them gain their balance at their own pace?
Your snowplough is your stabalizer as you improve and weight more on the turning ski the inside ski becomes lighter and the contact with the snow is softer. Now you say you want to ski parallel if you have your own boots and skis put them on at home go into a snowplough and lift one leg off the ground, how does that feel? Now let that leg relax and hang naturaly do not force it into the snowplough then look down at where that leg is, next to your other!
Watch the video's more closely you will see that the distance between skis for the expert skiers varies with speed, terrain etc one I have watched actually states that the girl doing a demo has a wider stance because of her more recent race background, ( think it may be the Skiing skills piste performance).
As others have said though get a lesson ( they can see exactly what you are doing right and wrong ) if you find a good instructor on the indoor slope stick with them. Just enjoy the learning curve because it is a great time you can have fantastic memories, your first great red run that spectacular wipeout on your first mogul first venture into powder, so don't rush it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Holy thread resurrection, Batman. Not a record, but 5 years is pretty impressive.
Oh and a belated welcome to SnowHeads to @Taurig, ... very remiss of us.
I wonder if you’ve eliminated the ski tips crossing after having lessons? Must be ready for a Bash by now?
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+1. I was just about to reply when I spotted the dates.
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Again, you need some lessons. I am surprised that no one has pointed out that, beyond snowplough turns, there are two more advanced turns. Traditional parallel turns and carved turns. The techniques of doing these well are quite different. Using carving skis doesn't mean you're carving. Most people go on from snowplough to traditional parellel turns and many never bother to even try carving. The group I ski with don't carve. They all learnt before there was carving and don't really believe it exists. Because I only started skiing 20 years ago, I was more curious and realised that carving did exist. Weight on the outside ski is perhaps more important in traditional parallel turns than in carved ones but it's not to stop the skis crossing but to stop the inside ski turning harder than the outside ski and your legs going apart.
Now I'll wait for the flames.
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FAQ
