Adult total beginner in large group of intermediates and above – tips? Solutions?

A snowHead

Good evening all,

We're a mixed ability group of 7 adults off to La Thuile for a week in January, formed of two overlapping groups of friends in late 20s/early 30s. All are at least low-level intermediates, but one of the group is a complete beginner. I learned to ski a long time ago and am comfortable on any pisted run, but I am a bit out of the loop when it comes to beginners. It'll be his first time on snow, which I did not realise when we booked. I am now a bit worried he'll have a bit of a lonely or boring time, as I am not sure how much time others will be willing to spend on beginner runs. I'm happy to ski with him during the afternoons when he is done with ski school, but I think I'll be bored stiff after a few hours on the baby slopes, and he'll tire of me trying to go too fast or down runs that are too difficult. It would be great if he was able to handle blues and easier reds by the end of the week and ski with others in the group - how realistic is this?

I have encouraged him to visit a local snowdome for some lessons (and have volunteered to accompany him to give some basic pointers) but he cannot spare the time during evenings and doesn't want to give up a weekend day to do this, so that option is out.
I remember reading somewhere that beginners will learn to parallel turn much faster on snowblades/skiblades than on full-length skis, and can later transition to full-length skis once they've picked up the fundamentals. As I understand it, even a total novice will be able to parallel turn on snowblades within a few days - how true is this? If so, would this be a decent short-cut to being able to ski with some other members of the group on easy runs? Given that this is his first time skiing I'd love him to be able to experience what it can be like, instead of spending all week learned the 'proper' way but only able to link snowploughs by the last day.

As for lessons - I think he will sign up to the morning ski school offered by the tour operator, which provides 5 days of 2.5 hours tuition, presumably in a large group, for £161 - so just below £13/h. Does this represent good value? In my own long ago-experience, instruction given as part of a large ski school group of 8 or so was kind of rubbish. I learned so much faster in a small group of 1-3. Did I just have a bad experience? Would the money for ski school be more effectively spent on fewer hours with a personal instructor or small group?
He is open to the idea of spending a little more to get 1-to-1 tuition, or tuition in a small group of, say, 3 people, for a day or two in order to learn the basics as quickly as possible. The official school seems to offer 1-to-1 lessons for approx €36-42 per hour (and €15/h per additional student) - is this a good choice in terms of value? I cannot find any other options in La Thuile aside from the official ski school.

Thanks in advance!

A snowHead

You need to be blunt with him.
If he is not prepared to spend his money & time now on some snowdome (or dry slope if one is closer) lessons, then why should he expect you or anyone else to give up a portion of his holiday to babysit him?

You know what you would like him to do, so you know he can only get there with time & practice. Sometimes a week ( + 2.5hrs a day) is probably not going to get him to that enjoyment level. At least not to a level where you can ski as a group together.

We go every year mixed ability, and we kind of have the same rule.

You can't measure how quickly people will pick these things up. On one hand, we still have one person after 5 years that will not go on reds. On the other, we had the teenage daughter of a couple in our group join us & she was fearless & was doing reds by the end of the week better than her parents with a good number of years of experience!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

sparklingspringwater, as you (more or less) state in your opening post: you have made a mistake.
An absolute beginner among intermediates is a recipe for misery for at least one (your beginner). Or two, if you decide to babsit. Or the whole group, if your beginner tries to tag along.
Ideally our beginner should stick with skiers of similar ability.
Such a pity that everywhere doesn't do the Austrian system of 2 hours intruction in the morning and another 2 hours in the afternoon.

As Mr.Egg says: you have some difficult decisions tomake, and some blunt talking to do.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@sparklingspringwater, so ... (is he your significant other, that can be significant* ... ?)

- lessons, good. Actually may be more fun for him if he makes chums in class who progress at the same rate.

- * teaching a partner is often a total nightmare

- my understanding/perception is that starting on snowblades just "delays the hangover" - modern skis are way easier to learn on than you may have pearnt on (although that would have been a very long time ago).

- I would not be surprised if La Thuile only has one ski school. A quick google doesn't find alternatives. Groups can be fine, especially for beginners, will it definitely be in English?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

It's very unfortunate he's not willing, without any strong reason (as far as I can understand) to have some lessons in the UK.

Lessons straight away for him. When I travel with friends that are beginners I balance skiing with them in the beginners' slope a bit (it is not boring if you do some advanced drills) and just going somewhere else for normal skiing. Eventually (and hopefully) at some point during the end of the week they will join you in some more challenging slopes.

You'll need to Register first of course.

If your beginner won't take prior lessons he'll have to be ready to spend much of the week on his own. Unless someone in the group loves him enough to become a beginner boarder and keep him company after lessons. He should have lessons every day, really. Given that he sounds very unenthusiastic he probably won't mind the slow pace of beginners group lessons.

Forget snowblades.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Lessons full week full days. No way out.

After all it is free

If he's not too keen he might want to give up after lunch!

Thanks you all for your productive and well thought-out replies. Not what I wanted to hear but I think it is what I needed to hear!

@Mr.Egg - I think you are right here, I need to do a better job of explaining to him that learning is challenging, can take a long time, and that others may not want to babysit. Good to know about your experiences, too - hopefully he'll be one of the fast learners that can likewise do reds by the end of the week.

@Jonpim - I quite agree, this mutual-misery is what I am a bit scared of. 2h morning and 2h afternoon instruction would also be ideal, alas...

@nder a new name - No he is not my partner, I have however made that mistake before! It went about as well as you alluded. Embarassed

She does not ski anymore...
I did learn on modern skis (late 1990s) and have skiied a fair bit on blades, too. They certainly helped my carving technique come on. I guess 'delaying the hangover' as you put it is a great way of summing it up. Maybe this delay would be worth it? I feel, given that he may never ski again, I'd rather he took the 'short cut' and could ski on blades, putting in some parallel (or even almost carving?) turns by weeks' end and getting (safely) up to some decent speeds. Wishful thinking, maybe...
I can only find the one ski school, too. I think it'll be in English as it is organised by the tour operator who are massive and have reps on site etc...

@Gustavobs good point on the drills.

@pam w the snowboard solution could work, I always fancied giving it a go, so maybe I can try it for a few days at least. You'd say snowblades a definite 'no-no'?

@Langerzug will try this but it may prove too expensive.

Thanks again all.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

But yes - plenty of fun drills for skiers on easy slopes. Ski backwards, ski on one leg, 360s.....

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

@sparklingspringwater, Yeah, I tried to teach my first wife (there's a hint to the result in there).

Not quite sure how blades help "proper" carving - being too short to allow "proper" turn shaping - but let's not get beyond ourselves, eh?

snow reports

It really depends on the individual. I have run a group trip now for just under 20 years and have periodically introduced beginners to what is now a fairly high ability group (for holiday skiers). Whether beginners sink or swim tends to depend on their own mental attitude. If they want to learn and have fun, then they learn and have fun. If they don't then they don't.

There are things you can do to help them - like suggest they take instruction (more = good), help them out in the hire shop, make sure they get to lessons on time (don't underestimate just how much you know about how to get around a ski resort), make sure they aren't left alone at lunch and ensure you are collecting them for apres. But when it comes to the actual skiing, there isn't that much you can do.

The main way people screw up here is by taking someone without the skills on steeper (like even steep blue) terrain before they are ready for it. Over-terraining beginners totally screws their technique and sets their progress back. Get them to talk to their instructor about where they should be skiing and take them there if you are feeling in the mood.

As others have said, snowblades are a total waste of time.

@under a new name - fair point, for me they gave me the 'push' to really get on the edges and unlearn poor technique that I had picked up, and when I then next went on normal skis carving came very quickly and naturally.

@gorilla - thanks, these are really helpful pointers (also a list of basically everything I did wrong when trying to teach the other half after her own lessons).

You know it makes sense.

@sparklingspringwater, the idea of rapid learning on blades seems to hark back to the days of teaching using the 'Ski Evolutif' method - start lessons on 1m skis and use progressively longer skis as the week goes on. I did my first week of learning this way and we were taught parallel turns from day 1 - the snowplough wasn't introduced until day 4. Ski Evolutif was used when people were skiing old fashioned 2m skis and this approach has completely fallen out of fashion now.

It may be that your friend will meet others in ski school who he is happy to practise with in the afternoons.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@sparklingspringwater, why are you the only one who's going to ski with the beginner after his morning lesson EVERYDAY?

Who talked him into joining the group of intermediates? (I'm assuming that's not you, nor is you his only friend). If he choose to come despite knowing everyone else had skied reasonably well, he'll just have to tough it out. But if it's someone who misled him, well that someone may need to put in a few boring afternoons but by no means EVERY afternoon. Still, others in the group would help rotate as the babysitter?

Whoever's turn as babysitter, they can as pam w suggested, work on their drills.

And if you fancy learning to board, you can certain share a couple afternoon of misery with him. But I can tell you from experience, a skier turn boarder still progress way faster than a never-ever skier. So, 2 afternoons on beginner runs going slowly is about all you can fashion...

A snowHead

If in a class, it's possible they can find someone to ski with in the afternoon when the lesson is over.

There may also be someone in your accommodation who is learning and is happy to team up.

An odd Private lesson could also use up a couple of afternoons.

By day five, they "may" be able to do Blue runs and so make skiing with them for an afternoon, less of a chore. I've seen Beginers make remarkable progress; and also seen the opposite.

A snowHead

@sparklingspringwater, how sporty is your beginner friend? If he is one of those irritating people who are good at every sport they try, and throws himself into it fully, then he might progress rapidly and be able to ski easier slopes later in the week. On the other hand, if he isn't generally athletic (and somewhat reluctant) then don't expect too much, and definitely make sure you are not left as the only babysitter all week.

A lesson or two (or perhaps a "learn to ski in a day" session at a fridge) could make a significant difference - I would revisit that is. Is he really not willing to do anything to increase the overall success of the holiday?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Alastair - I see, I did not know about the history of that method, cheers.

@abc - I would not be the only one babysitting, but I have not asked anyone else about it yet. As I've done a few 'first lift to last run' trips over the last few years with quite hardcore skiiers a chill-out trip might be a nice change of pace. I don't think anyone talked him into it - I think he just didn't know that skiing has a steep learning curve! We already had a paid-up group of 6 and asked him on the off-chance if he'd like to join us. Two of us were under the impression he had been skiing a few times when younger, and this perception (which we reached independently) was reinforced by him mentioning that he had been keen to go skiing for a while, so of course we invited him. We should not have assumed that he had skiied before - blushes all round Embarassed

. But, in all fairness, he also did not mention to us that he never skiied during any of the discussion, and we only found out a few weeks after he'd paid.

@Old Fartbag - good shout, hopefully he'll find someone from his group. Also may some of the ski reps will know other novices, come to think of it.

@mgrolf - he is good at sport which will be helpful, I think. And also very fit which is a plus. I will try and re-attempt the snowdome approach.

Thank you all, these have been very helpful and constructive replies indeed, I am feeling a bit better about it now.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@sparklingspringwater, a combination of all the above suggestion should be good enough to ensure he has an enjoyable week.

1) Morning lessons, during which he should look out for other beginners to ski with after lunch. He's most likely only want to ski an hour or so after lunch anyway. Falling over repeatedly all morning long can be quite exhausting. Smile

2) If you care to learn to board, you can accompany him for one or two afternoon.

3) Others who wish to chill on odd days can rotate off to be his babysitter while working on their skill drills.

4) By day 3, he MAYBE able to range far, if not fast, provided there're beginner runs linked together that goes somewhere.

5) I think by day 5 he should be able to do easy reds. But probably quite slowly. Not sure if it's a good idea to have him join the group though. It maybe too intimidating trying to follow the herd at breakneck speed (from his perspective).

6) Just make sure the apres bar is accessible by beginner runs!

If he could take a lesson in a frig, it will accelerate the process massively.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Cheers @abc Smile

You'll need to Register first of course.

@sparklingspringwater,

I was a complete beginner, travelling with a large group of intermediates, many years ago. Worked perfectly for me.

2.5 hour lesson first 5 mornings. Each one of those afternoons skied with between 3 and 6 of the morning beginner group. Almost certain to be some of those beginners wanting to do that, just a case of chatting and asking.

Then on last day tagged along with my intermediate friends on a full day trip. Held them up a bit but not so as it caused a significant problem. Some were kind and patient. That last day brought on my confidence a lot.

Socialised outside of skiing time with both groups. One of the best weeks of my life.

By the next trip, 9 months later, I was skiing with the intermediates all the time outside of a couple of private lessons.

Years later also tried the beginner snowboarder with beginner skier combo. Not a disaster luckily but didn’t work well for us. Too much risk of collision for me. Tense atmosphere Mad

I think snowdome lessons would help the beginner. Doubt by enough to make sufficient difference to ski confidently with intermediates though. Much depends on beginner’s determination to learn and practice. Also the approach to skiing amongst the intermediates.

There’s some managing expectations to do. Also some compromises. I think with a little bit of those it will all work out fine.
snowHead

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

As an alternative strategy, do you have other friends who haven’t skied before who might be interested in joining your holiday?

After all it is free

Just get him in lessons when you're out there.

There is no way around it.... even if one of you is a qualified instructor it wont work.
(People don't take any notice in "free lessons" )

Group lessons are they way ... he should just brush up on his Italian before he goes.

He'll have a great time in lessons, perhaps on the last day he can show you how good he is coming down the black slope under the chair Smile

Snow blades are not a shortcut to skiing. Good skiers zip around on snow blades . The odd bad skier gets to reds on snow blades. All in perfect conditions. Ice? Whiteout? Powder? No No No! Beginner chasing you lot? No No etc.
As above - lessons.
Then hot choc and beer.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

@suec, +1.
Blades are for people who have already convinced themselves that they can't learn to ski.
Why turn this into a self-fulfilling exercise in defeatism before you even set sail, when it can be so much more than that?
This is actually an excellent potentially life changing opportunity - you just need to see it as such.
25 years ago we found ourselves in a similar position where we would do a couple of trips a year with very mixed ability groups.
This was great socially, was a big compromise for everybody in terms of skiing.
Our demographic was similar, between 5-8 people aged late 20s.
The next year we booked a week in a chalet Verbier, but this time it was organised by one of the beginner skiers.
They booked everybody snowboard hire and a week of morning lessons.
Everybody bought into this, and we all had an absolute blast learning together, laughing together, falling over together, lunching together, comparing butt bruises in the sauna etc...
Everybody in the group still boards now (some do both).
How much more fun would that be than dogging around the nursery slopes with an absolute beginner while the rest of the team are hitting the parks & pow.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

Stick him in group lessons. Let him have a group of mates from those. Maybe meet up for an hour or so in teh afternoon to take a few laps to see where he's up to. Ensure your apres meet ups are in a location he can access. No to blades. Short term fix at the expense of a lifetime of skiing like a gibbon.

I think there is a limit to how much a trip organiser can expect to be responsible for a grown adult who has made tehir own decisions. He might come on well, he might struggle. Neither are your problem to fix.

The idea that a few of you do boarding lessons with him is not a terrible one though. Plus the learning curve is such that after 3 days good instruction most vaguely coordinated youngish adults can expect to be riding around most of the pistes (maybe not ice and moguls) relatively easily.

Just an idea.

We had a similar issue many moons ago in Flaine. There were 2 almost beginners (2 weeks IIRC) plus 2 solid intermediates - including me (probably 8 weeks by then). Our solution was to book everyone into ski-school for 2 hours in the morning. Then the Ski-School split people up according to their ability. The beginners end up in the bottom groups, and the advanced intermediates in the top group. The top group tends to be quite small - most advanced intermediates think they don't need ski school. We ended up in a group of just 4, and the instructor then basically acted as a guide taking us to places we wouldn't have found on our own, and short bits of piste-side off piste. He even tried to organise an all day heli-skiing trip for the last day, but the other two people in our group wouldn't do it.

If you class yourself as intermediate, then lessons won't do you any harm, and probably a lot of good. They're definatley a laugh. Morning lessons would allow you all to meet up for lunch, and decide what to do in the afternoon. Chances are the biginners wll just want to do a few bunny runs before retiring to the bar.

LaThuille/Roziere isn't *that* big, but IIRC there is (was 10 years ago anyway) a loooonnnnnnggg drag lift to get up to the col back from Roz. I'd want to be sure a beginner could handle that before taking them over to that side of the area.

You know it makes sense.

I have friends and family come out with us and we get them to do ski in a day at a snowdome and then private lessons of just them or two of them. If they cant make the snowdomes then its a bit more difficult on day one getting them to the start of their lessons, not forgetting helmets, gloves, poles etc. By not being in a group, they progress lots more quickly as they have the attention of the instructor not just snaking along behind them in a line of 10 where the last one could fall off and never be seen again. I then organise to meet them for lunch at the top of a lift they can get to from the end of their lesson if possible. Have a decent lunch and then guide them down to the resort and the beginners slopes where they can practice for a couple of hours. I then meet them in the bar 430 ish in the resort.
After a few days they will progress to be able to get about on the blues which particularly in Les Arc, can get you round the resort to different restaurants, bars etc. I've not skied in La Thuile but have been in the summer. there is a cabin out of the village with blues above it with food options at the top of the cabin and combe chair above that. Have lunch, he can pootle about a bit and then cabin down to the village

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@sparklingspringwater, late to this, but this is actually a situation I've been in a few times in the past. We used to go as a group of Uni friends, and I think 3 or 4 times there was one complete beginner in the group (the rest fairly accomplished skiers). None of them took lessons before going.

It's a cliche, but everyone progresses at their own rate. Two of them progressed very quickly indeed (comfortable enough on reds by the end of the week, and in one case getting down a black), one was stuck on the nursery slopes all week (and barely progressed off them the second week they went). So yes, your friend could be parallel turning by the end of the week, and comfortable on anything that's been groomed reasonably flat, or they could still be snowploughing down greens, there's no real way to tell before they try.

Our solution was for the beginner to take lessons (usually group, I think one may have gone private) in the mornings, and for the accomplished skiers to take it in turns to ski with them in the afternoons (essentially one afternoon each). I found this worked well, but it helped that we were all good friends (whereas as I understand it you have two groups coming together, so those who don't know the beginner might resent having to babysit).

You might also hope they make friends with others from their group and ski with them in the afternoons. This happened on another skiing trip with my sister-in-law who happily skied with someone from her group for an afternoon or two when my brother and I went off exploring (in the 3V, heading off to Courchevel from VT, and not really wanting to come back for lunch).

So I'll go against the grain and say it's perfectly possible to find good solutions without him needing to spend hours in a snowdome before going Very Happy

I will however echo the general feeling about snowblades. Not worth it, and even can ingrain bad habits which will hamper his progression more than anything.

A snowHead

My first week I was the only beginner in a group of 6. The others ranged from intermediates to a ex gap-year ski-instructor. Some afternoons I was too tired from the morning's lessons to ski, other days I met up with the one or other of my group (they took it in turns) and practiced a bit with them. One afternoon, a group of us from my lesson went off together and had a good time too.

10 years later, I still go annually with the same group (or variations thereof). I still don't ski as well as them, and still mix and match between lessons, skiing on my own and slowing my friends down for a few hours wink

. Sometimes there are other beginners in the group too, one year we even had two of them!

We still all get to be social together in the evenings and meet up for lunch or a drink on the slopes most days. In my experience it only becomes an issue if the beginner is a partner of one of the other skiers, then they have different expectations of how much time they will be together on the holiday, which can cause tension.

A snowHead

Echo the comments above. It may be that he takes to skiing like a duck to water, so it’s perfectly possible that he will be able to tag along gently in the afternoons on blue and green runs-some sporty types just get the hang of skiing very quickly. Urge him to do at least one session on an indoor slope beforehand though, you can sell the idea on the basis that he doesn’t want to be the only person on day one who hasn’t got a clue how to put his boots and skis on.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Depends on the person. I was comfortable on most pistes by the end of my first week (although my ability wasnt great). Otoh I went with someone last year who had previously skied for a few weeks years ago. We took him to Hemel before we went and it became clear he'd overstated his ability. Pretty much forced him into lessons and he largely skied the week on his own. He would have a few runs down a green to start the day (we generally did one or two with hin), then lessons. We would meet after and have lunch on most days then ski a run or two, by which time he was knackered (dont think he skied beyond 3pm on any day) and we'd leave him in the bar until we joined after last lift. He had a brilliant time and can't wait to go back.

You need to Login to know who's really who.

@sparklingspringwater, cant add anything to what others have said about lessons etc but La Thuile can be flippin parky in Jan and a couple of the chair lifts are quite slow so maybe make sure your friend is well layered up

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Thanks everyone, really great advice, I do appreciate it a lot (and hopefully so will he Smile

)

You'll need to Register first of course.

Again late to this, but don't underestimate the power of group lessons. Speaking from experience as a solo skier (if solo, I choose ski school rather than anything else), you soon get to be mates with the others, he might actually WANT to ski with them rather than with all you experts (as he will see you!)

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Five full day lessons in a group, that way he'll have people to ski with.

I think ESF offer a first time skier package that also comes with a free local area lift pass.

I think the idea that he'll be able to 'ski with the lads' is just a pipe dream.

There's still the aprez, which I'm sure he'll be as good as anyone else at!

After all it is free

@johnE, bloody hell! You can never trust the French to do ANYTHING right!

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Lessons. As a fellow beginner I can't stress how important ski lessons are! At least for now. There are also lots of ski technique videos online to watch.

Help!!

Adult total beginner in large group of intermediates and above – tips? Solutions?

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees