 Poster: A snowHead
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My brother and I are hoping to capitalize on all the snow this year. We've just booked airfare to Milan and car hire for a week in early March. We are both fairly advanced in that we are comfortable on most everything marked at American resorts but this is our first European ski trip. We know some about avalanche danger but dont have the gear or detailed knowledge to feel comfortable going full on off piste. I prefer powder/crud/chop/some bumps over groomed pistes. We are both poor and young so budget is another consideration. Driving up to about 5 or 5.5 hours is fine with us. Where should we go?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Advanced skiing and not wanting to go off piste an oxymoron in Europe
I would have said Gressoney but you are supposed to have avi kit to access Freeride zones (Punta Inderen)
For best piste skiing - I imagine you'll be disappointed by Italy as everything groomed to perfection
Chamonix your best bet for ungroomed pistes and reasonably accessible from Milan, off top of my head
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yeah, I agree with @peanuthead, for the most part. But, 5 hours from Milan gives you access to just about everything in the Alps, including southern French Alps, northwestern Italy, Austria and Dolomites. (Am excluding Switzerland because of budgetary reasons). Just watch the weather and go where most snow is.
I think what you're looking to ski is actually sidecountry -- inbounds areas between runs, open ungroomed bowls accessible by lifts etc. I don't have a lot of experience with it, to be honest, but have enjoyed it in Espace Diamant and Serre Chevalier. Full "off piste" involves avalanche gear and most likely a guide.
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As above, the Alps are small and 5-6 hours can deliver you to most resorts.
Depends a bit on how long you have and whether you want to see a few resorts maybe basing yourself in one place.
Chamonix would be a place I would consider with some great piste skiing particularly up at Argentiere, though I would spend some money on a guide even if for a day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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How about Cervinia – about 2.5 hours from milan and linked to Zermatt which opens up a lot of skiing and is cheaper than staying in Zermatt
No need to hire a car as you can get a transfer bus so that will save you money and you could even spend the money saved on a heli ski trip 
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@Thighs, please don't take this the wrong way, but off piste is off piste, whether it's the side of the piste or not, there isn't "full on off piste" and "not so full on off piste".
I've certainly skied by the side of piste, without equipment, but on shallow slopes without terrain traps below and without anything above which could avalanche. So just make sure you know what to look for and make informed decisions if/when you go.
there is a pic/explanation in German here http://www.powpowpow.org/its-not-off-piste-its-just-a-little-off-to-the-side/
and another pic here http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/going-little-bit-off-piste-safe/
for resorts look at Cervinia if you want to experience a large mega Euro resort linked to Zermatt, or if you want something quieter with more off piste then Engelberg, but some of the off piste there you'd need a guide, with perhaps La Thuile as a good middle ground between the two!
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 16-01-18 11:35; edited 1 time in total
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ah, just re-read that you are coming from America. There is a huge and important difference and I'll try and explain in USA terms (please excuse me if you already know this).
In Europe the ski resort "in bounds" area is ONLY between the piste poles, if you ski outside that piste pole you are now "out of bounds", even if there is another piste 5m away!
One other thing, when you hire the car in Milan (and if it's a diesel) make sure you add in a fuel additive to stop diesel freezing, you can get it at local "gas" stations once you leave Milan.
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@Thighs, Milan car hire will also include chains. Practice putting them on if you can as many approach roads near ski stations could require chaining up if the roads are snowy.
I wouldn't worry about full on "off piste" adventure skiing as @kitenski explains -- from your post sounds like what you want is stuff that's within the resort boundaries. (I call it "inbounds," maybe being a little imprecise). It can get pretty tracked up and packed down. For an example, look at the piste map of Serre Chevalier, at the middle right. There's a long lift called Vallons with a run named Cucumelle below it. However, on either side of Cucumelle are snowfields that will provide what I'd term "sidecountry" that advanced intermediates or experts can ski.
Anyway, this is a good snow year here so you'll definitely have fun almost anywhere you go!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Pasigal,
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I wouldn't worry about full on "off piste" adventure skiing as @kitenski explains -- from your post sounds like what you want is stuff that's within the resort boundaries. (I call it "inbounds," maybe being a little imprecise). It can get pretty tracked up and packed down. For an example, look at the piste map of Serre Chevalier, at the middle right. There's a long lift called Vallons with a run named Cucumelle below it. However, on either side of Cucumelle are snowfields that will provide what I'd term "sidecountry" that advanced intermediates or experts can ski.
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Way beyond my area of expertise, but isn't what you are saying in direct contradiction to the earlier posts about 'it's not off-piste, it's just a little off to the side?' The concept of off-piste, but still inbounds/sidecountry surely doesn't exist in Europe, does it?
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@foxtrotzulu, I think it's a matter of semantics. As an American, "off piste" to me in Europe means you're out of the ski area bounds, i.e. what we would call "back country" in the US.
What I'd call "sidecountry" is kind of a recent, sly nod to people who gear up like they're going to ski Mount McKinley but are really skiing within the ski area bounds but not on a marked trail (often right next to it.)
But this is probably hors sujet for the OP. He says he likes skiing ungroomed or bumpy expert marked trails -- as others have noted European stations often groom aggressively so will be a little harder to find that...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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St Anton. The grooming seems minimal compared to other places I've been, plenty of "ski-routes" that are never groomed and there's a wide variety of off-piste ranging from quite avalanche + terrain safe to absolutely lethal in all regards.
I'm sure people would recommend Verbier for the freeride potential and the famous itineraries (marked but not groomed).
Piste maps in different places mark ungroomed routes differently on the maps: e.g. Tignes-Val d'Isere use dotted black lines, Verbier use yellow lines, most of austria use dotted red or black lines with diamond number markers, Paradiski (La Plagne and Les Arcs) write Natur'. Many black runs in the Alps are not pisted as regularly as the easier pistes, so may periodically become chopped and then mogul fields. Snow conditions of course play a large part: powder or slush will mess up grooming anywhere!
A few places you might be interested in with avalanche controlled freeride areas that I've found searching online: Montgenevre, Le Grand Bornard, Vars + Risoul (not controlled, but marked + gated high risk areas, also apparently they leave quite a few runs unpisted after fresh snow), La Rosière (Snowzone regions are avalanche controlled).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Pasigal, trouble is in europe "next to" a ski pole is off piste, and your insurance and skills will need to cover "off piste" skiing even if you only venture to the side of the piste.
@skeksis, yup I'd agree somewhere with ski routes would be good but the trouble is St Anton is going to be a 5 hour drive from Milan!
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@kitenski, that's true, I think. However, it certainly doesn't seem to deter anyone, witness the tracked out "off piste" in most resorts two days after a dump.
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You know it makes sense.
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Reading through most of this thread i was thinking of all the fun i've had in the freeride section in Le Grand Bornand, one of the more budget friendly places i've been to in France with a surprisingly good mix of ungroomed runs although not a whole lot of runs that could be seen as particularly advanced. It's also a little on the low side so isn't the most snowsure, although i've had some great powder days there in January - March which make the freeride sections i mentioned earlier an absolute hoot!
Given the location of Le Grand Bornand, and the recommendations made earlier, you could quite feasibly land in Milan, drive through to either LGB, spend 2 days there and then on to Chamonix. If you make sure your accommodation is able to be cancelled in LGB then you can always give it a miss if the snowfall doesn't look promising to save you wasting 2 days.
Also on a budget note, not for everyone but the last 3 times i've been to Grand Bornand i've stayed in a static caravan in the campsite, cheapest ski holiday i've had and surprisingly warm even with snow covering half the caravan!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Generally you will find good value resorts in Italy. Madesimo could be a xonsidetation. Medium sized area with good snow and you can also do day trips when you get bored. Pizza ~€7 up the mountain, free food in bars if you buy a drink or two and €1 espressos. Any skiing outside of the marked piste will most likely invalidate your standard travel insurance policy should an accidental occur in that zone.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks a lot everyone. Yes, I do realize that anything not marked as piste is off piste and we are on our own there even 2m off piste. I suppose yes what I was really looking for is a place that is lazy with grooming or a place with ski routes. Will have to look into Mandesimo, LGB, and others suggested. I've been looking for a place in St Anton for a while but cant find anywhere decently priced without having to take buses. I saw that some of the big french list ungroomed...is this their version of skiroutes?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Thighs, this is what I would do in your place:
Split your time between Courmayeur, Chamonix and Verbier.
Drive from Milan to Courmayeur, if there’s fresh snow stick to the main Courmayeur area - there is lots of great skiing including great trees. Great good value food on the mountain - hot chocolate to die for. Stay one night - go to Cafe Roma? for après - great free buffet. If it hasn’t snowed for a few days you could alternatively or add a 2nd day to venture onto the Hellbronner. This is serious terrain but if it hasn’t snowed and you are good skiers you could follow the main routes which will be mogulled and obvious - be aware you are on a glacier and there are crevasses if you get adventurous! Day 2/3 - go through the tunnel to Chamonix, ski 1 day on the Grands Montets - fantastic views and amazing skiing. Get there early to get on the top bin queue. Book an additional slot on the top bin around 11am so you get 2 goes from the top. Next day if conditions and budget allow, get on a guided Vallee Blanche trip. You ski on Europe’s highest mountain - it’s iconic and a memorable day. Celebrate with a beer in Chambre Neuf. Drive to Verbier and stay for 3 days, stay in Le Chable Una Lodge if you want to keep costs down. Ski the fantastic marked itineraries - Mont Gele, chassoure, gentianes, cols des mines, vallon d’arbi, Etygeon. And of course Mont Fort. Your legs will burn! If it snows ski the amazing trees in Bruson. Go to the Farinet for the happy hour après - you will be in heaven.
1-2 days Italy; 2 days France, 3 days Switzerland - probably the best advanced lift served terrain in the world.
Either book hostels/hotels/Airbnb up front and keep fingers crossed or leave it until a couple of days before so you know conditions and can adjust based on snow conditions/weather forecast.
Trip of a lifetime 😉
Enjoy!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hard to argue with the Cormayeur/Chamonix/Verbier suggestion above. I’m American as well living in the UK and have skied a bunch of different places in the alps, and from a US perspective Chamonix really sticks out in the mind. The mountains are so dramatic and place is iconic for a reason. The Vallee Blanche should be on your list with a guide. It’s worth it and if the snow is good down to the valley you get 9,000 vert in one run. This picture is of the Grands Montets and has some of that controlled free ride terrain you might be thinking of:
https://goo.gl/images/APA5CK
Another place that comes to mind is Ste Foy in France as they have a few avalanche controlled free ride zones within the resort area.
Definitely splurge for a guide 1-2 days of your trip. It can be expensive but really worth it as a good guide will get you to the best snow and to areas that you wouldn’t even get close to on your own.
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This sounds great- those places will definitely be on the list and thanks for writing that whole trip out. You guys think it would be safe to wait until a week before to book on an 80-90 euro per night budget? Guess Im just worried there wont be any decent places in our price range left that late.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Have a look at Bormio. If you have a car there you'd also have access to other resorts like Sta Caterina and Livignio.
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Reckon @BobinCH, has hit the nail on the head, sounds like an awesome trip, enjoy!
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Just check your dates-French mid term school holidays end on 4th March. The week after will be quieter and I should think booking accommodation in France at shorter notice for a couple of days then should be fine (some places may be a bit reluctant to take a booking for less than 7 days before 4th March), but it might be a good idea to check out availability now. In my experience, the more budget end of the market is more flexible.
Just did a quick check of Booking.com for hotels in Courmayeur - it looks quite busy.
Agree with the recommendations made above for what you are after. Italy is noticeably cheaper than France and Switzerland. You can also ski the Vallee Blanche from Courmayeur and you will need a guide. We did it from Courmayeur a few years ago and had a fantastic day with Gianni Carbone - http://giannicarbone.com. The ability to do the VB is very weather dependent, so you may want to spread your options for the VB between Courmayeur and Chamonix. Despite the distance between the two being only about 12 km, the weather on either side of Mont Blanc can be very different on any given day.
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@Thighs, I’d also suggest that you find room in your budget for a couple of guided days - after all you are coming all the way here. You may be able to keep the costs down by joining a group - ask in the guides office when you get to resort if they will have a group running. Guide will provide transceiver etc
You’ve had good advice on places to go but I’d second guess ones/Alagna as you are flying to Milan. Also think sestriere/sauze d’oulx are great if you like tree skiing. Could go from there to cormayeur and then chamonix
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