 Poster: A snowHead
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I have been skiing for around 12 years but always split my one week per year between skis and snowboard.
I believe I ski at Intermediate level - I'm comfortable and enjoy all blue & red runs, can get down a black but sometimes without a great deal of pleasure, bit of carving but far from perfect, I venture off to the side of the piste a bit but definitely want to do more of this.
My children are now reaching a stage where they're outpacing and outskilling me! I'm a better snowboarder than skier but the combination of the children's progress and my increasing age means I'd like to improve my skiing and focus a bit more on improving that.
I currently have a set of 2007 Atomic Metron B11 skis. I'm not sure these were an ideal choice at the time (when I was basically a beginner) but they're what I have.
The selection of skis out there is vast and I'm really struggling to choose a new set. I've been a little drawn to Rossignol Experience 88s but reviews seem to vary in terms of whether they're suitable for a true intermediate (that I think I am) and an intermediate to advanced (which I don't think I am).
I am 5'9" (176cm) and 72kg.
Any advice / suggestion would be hugely appreciated.
Thank you.
Dave
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Hairsy, welcome to snowHeads.
At the risk of "you would say that, wouldn't you" but surely having some good ski lessons would be a better way of improving your skiing rather than buying a different pair of skis?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Perfectly reasonable reply and, yes, I will be continuing lessons.
My thought was that my current skis are 12 year old technology, definitely very heavy and I’m not sure they’re suitable for my aspiration to venture more off piste. If the advice was that my current skis are perfectly adequate then I would be delighted!
Thank you for your reply.
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Experience 88’s are pretty standard issue from many Ski shops, so should not be hard to rent and try
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There’s nothing wrong with treating yourself to a new set of skis to get the ball rolling on your new focus on skiing. Lessons of course are what will help you make the most improvement as Rob says.
I’m never quite sure I can see the attraction in All Mountain skis for true intermediates but maybe I’m out of sync with general opinion on this. To me, you’re really just making life more difficult for the things you’ll spend 98% of the time trying to conquer for not that much benefit when playing around in a little off piste. I know we all love the idea of playing around in the soft snow and it is great to do when we get a chance but I suspect that most once a year intermediates can have almost as much fun in the soft stuff with a pair of piste skis.
If what you really want to do is improve your carving, get more comfortable at higher speeds, start developing your short turns and maybe even play around a bit with moguls for fun then I can’t help wondering if a nice playful piste ski might be a better idea than an all mountain one.
I’m sure all mountains skis work really well for more advanced skiers but as an intermediate myself I do like a good piste ski.
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@Hairsy, I think with the vast majority of snowHeads, people buy new skis because either (a) they're looking for something with a functional difference (ie a wide powder ski), (b) they just find something way more fun than their existing skis, (c) they just fancy a change, or (d) their old skis are totally knackered.
The point is nobody really changes skis because their current ones are inhibiting progress. I think that relatively few people on this forum are good enough skiers to consider the possibility that their skis are preventing them from getting better at skiing.
One thing that does spring out from my research is that the Metron B11 ski is a women's ski. Womens skis tend to be often shorter, and a bit softer on the flex than mens skis on account women having typically smaller builds. Can I ask what length your skis are in? From the manufacturers' description they sound like a decent enough ski with a nice short turn radius and dimensions to suit some off piste.
I doubt your skis are limiting your performance because they're too old... however it does strike me that you might be a bit heavy for them and that a stiffer ski might do you better. If that's the case though, the Experience 88 is not the one you're looking for... they're made of soggy cardboard. If you're convinced that you want to be performing well on-piste but you'd also like to dabble in more side-piste, 80-88mm is probably a good width, so I think you should be thinking about things like the Salomon X-Drive 80 or 88, Blizzard Brahma, Scott The Ski, Head Monster 83 or 88, etc.
Are you skiing this season or have you had your week? If you're due a trip this year, why not explain your criteria to the rental shop and try a few different models out during the week? They're usually happy for you to change skis mid week and see what you prefer.
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@Hairsy, the Metrons are a heavy ski, which I found a pain when carrying them but not so much an issue when they were on my feet and I was going downhill. But I doubt whether a newer ski will significantly change your on-snow experience based on what you said in your post. If you had said that you were happy with the way you skied on piste but were frustrated when starting to ski off-piste then I'd say that a new (or additional) pair of skis which are designed more for off-piste snow would be a good choice. But it seems to me that what you are looking for is a general improvement in your skill level rather than a new ski which will give you a particular experience in situations where you struggle. For that I think getting some good ski lessons is a better option.
You could try renting for a day or two and try a few different pairs of skis to see if they make a difference and what kind of ski you prefer. This might avoid splashing out on some shiny new kit but being disappointed that it didn't achieve what you were looking for.
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I'm afraid its more than likely that your children will progress faster than you given equal amounts of good instruction, one way to combat this would be to take additional holidays without the children. I've had to come to terms with a son becoming much better than I will ever be.
Change your skis by all means but don't expect to improve as a direct result. IMO its more important to have well serviced skis and a great instructor - by the way privates are the way to go if you can afford them and you are fit enough to get the full benefit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Charliee wrote: |
| ... by the way privates are the way to go if you can afford them and you are fit enough to get the full benefit. |
Have to say, that's not my experience either as a learner or as a teacher. I think what matters most is the quality of the instructor, rather than how many people he or she is working with at the time. Obviously there are compromises, especially in terms of being in a group with too wide a range of ability levels, and above a certain size group the compromises get bigger and bigger. But if you want a general increase in skills then I think the more time you can spend in front of a good instructor the better, and the compromises of being in a group matter far less than having the time across a week-long course to work on all aspects of your skiing.
If money is no issue and you can afford as many hours of private lessons as you can group lessons then the decision might be different (although you'd then need to factor fitness and 'lesson intensity' in to your decision). Equally, if you just want to work on one specific aspect of your skiing then a private lesson is a much better option. But for general improvements to your skiing skills across all types of skiing then I think time in front of a good instructor is the most important factor, and for most people that means group lessons.
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By their nature group lessons are cheaper but less focused on you. So you may ski for 3 hours but only some of that time will be focused on you and what you need. A one hour private lesson will be more intense and focused entirely on you. The other thing is group lessons come by the week usually whereas privates can be done adhoc. I agree with @rob@rar that the instructor/instruction is important, perhaps just as important, in either case.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hairsy wrote: |
| My thought was that my current skis are 12 year old technology, definitely very heavy and I’m not sure they’re suitable for my aspiration to venture more off piste. |
Is the off piste this an aspiration or something you are really going to do.[/quote]
| Hairsy wrote: |
| If the advice was that my current skis are perfectly adequate then I would be delighted! |
Are you a two week a year a skier? Do you fly on your trips? If the answer is yes to both you are probably better off renting. Especially if you are unsure of what to buy, how you are going to progress, etc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Hairsy, what length are your current skis?
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| Layne wrote: |
| By their nature group lessons are cheaper but less focused on you. So you may ski for 3 hours but only some of that time will be focused on you and what you need. A one hour private lesson will be more intense and focused entirely on you. |
Agreed, but is the limiting factor on making progress the extent to which the instructor is focused on the client, or the rate at which the client can make changes which are permanent? I have no doubt that I can help a skier improve more across all aspects of their skiing in 6x4-hour group sessions in a week than I can in one 4-hour private lesson. However, if that client wants to work on one specific thing then a 4-hour session is probably enough and beyond that focused practice makes a big difference on that specific skill. With more time you also get more opportunity to work with your clients on taking them to a wider range of terrain and a wider range of snow conditions than you can in a single private lesson. That tactical and psychological development is important, and the more time you have with your clients the more you can do developing that aspect of their skiing.
| Layne wrote: |
| The other thing is group lessons come by the week usually whereas privates can be done adhoc. |
Agreed, and that can very important if you are trying to balance a range of things like skiing with family or friends as well as taking some lessons.
I'm simply providing an alternative viewpoint to the "private lessons are always better than group lessons" advice which is often given on the forum.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thanks for all the comments. I’m inclined to stick with what I have if I’m not going to see a huge difference.
Of course, some form of man-logic may take over and make me buy something new and shiny between now and next year (when I will try hiring some modern gear).
But I get the message that investing in me is more important than investing in the equipment.
Thanks again
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Obviously lessons are king to improvement. Then ski boots, so I would review those next. It's pretty common for people to ski in boots that are really too big for them, which limits the amount of control you have over your ski edges. Then lastly skis themselves and I do think you would find some of the newer models easier to ski and progress on. The new Nordica Navigator 80 looks ideal for a keen intermediate looking to progress. I haven't skied them myself, but every reputable review I've read bangs on about how user friendly they are in a wide range of snow conditions. But just don't expect your skiing to improve without developing your basic technique. Some skis are more forgiving of bad technique than others, but none will actually correct your flaws.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hairsy wrote: |
Thanks for all the comments. I’m inclined to stick with what I have if I’m not going to see a huge difference.
Of course, some form of man-logic may take over and make me buy something new and shiny between now and next year (when I will try hiring some modern gear).
But I get the message that investing in me is more important than investing in the equipment.
Thanks again |
It is not expensive to hire say Head Magnums for a day, just to see if you're missing anything.
FWIW. I ski on Atomic Beta Ride 11.20 and SL11s, from around 2004. Having tried the likes of the Magnum, I have decided that they are easier and I'd rather have them, but not to the extent that I would bin my other skis (until they are done).
On Piste, I prefer a full camber...Off Piste is another matter altogether and new ski design really makes life much easier.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 22-02-18 22:30; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I’m inclined to stick with what I have if I’m not going to see a huge difference.
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Feels like the right move. From memory the M11 B5 had a tight turn radius and was intended to be skied short. It was also pretty stiff and fully cambered. I remember them being spoken of as "wide" but looking back they were only 76mm. How things change.
I imagine they suck off piste in comparison to a modern ski. It's pretty much got all the features you don't want in order to enjoy off-piste skiing (tight sidecut with no tip taper, full camber, stiffer flex with no rocker, short). At the point where you start being interested in that then look at something else.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Last week I sort of had my first ever group lessons. I learnt to ski in the late 70s and didn't have a lesson tell around 2010, @rob@rar, I am sure would be able to picture my faults... Since then I have had a couple of two hour private lessons. Last week I was helping involved in a ski lesson as sweeper.
I was very pleasantly surprised how much I got out of the lessons from the few pointers the instructor gave to me.
I certainly will consider group lessons for myself although I am normally constricted on time due to meeting friends and family during the day.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hairsy wrote: |
| Thanks for all the comments. I’m inclined to stick with what I have if I’m not going to see a huge difference. |
How long are they?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pieman666 wrote: |
| I certainly will consider group lessons for myself although I am normally constricted on time due to meeting friends and family during the day. |
I appreciate that is a major factor for a lot of people on their ski holidays. I also appreciate that, sadly, there are too many instructors who are just going through the motions ,providing little or no instruction of any value. Frankly, the least amount of time with instructors like that the better, so private lessons probably better than group lessons (although you should probably say no lessons better than any kind of lesson with them).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I would rather be in a group lesson provided:
- The Instructor is first class
- The group is ideally less than 6 (but 6 at the very most)
- The standard and general speed of the class is similar
This is quite hard to achieve and almost impossible to guarantee...as you have little, or no control over any of these....though you can pick a Ski School with max class sizes.
If you are a decent skier, you have more hope with small specialist Ski Schools, doing a specialist discipline...as good skiers often stay clear of Classes.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| you have more hope with small specialist Ski Schools, doing a specialist discipline...as good skiers often stay clear of Classes. |
You've hit the nail on the head, there are loads of really good small operators out there who will easily achieve the 3 things on your tick list. Getting recommended instructors or building up your own contacts is the way forwards...
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I've been trying to get out of bad habits and into good ones for far too long.
I can say that, in Canada 2 years ago, I was in the "top" group (inter), and after the third day the lessons (different instructor each day, that's how they work sadly) all got a bit samey. Went private, big difference. In parallel, my daughters also didn't learn much in their last group lessons in Andorra.
Translation - my experience of group lessons is that they work up to a certain level, but above that, private seems necessary. Maybe you see group advanced lessons, I haven't to now.
To the OP - no one has mentioned the alternative approach to you getting better than your children. Stop paying for their ski holidays 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Orange200 wrote: |
| (different instructor each day, that's how they work sadly) |
Bonkers!
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@Hairsy, welcome to snowheads. The thing I found really helpful is going to a snow dome when away from holidays, my skiing has come on leaps and bounds with lessons at a dome. If you're ever at Hemel at the same time as me you're welcome to try my Head Magnums just drop me a PM.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Charliee wrote: |
| I'm afraid its more than likely that your children will progress faster than you given equal amounts of good instruction, one way to combat this would be to take additional holidays without the children. |
My son and I started to learn to ski together 6 years ago; him age 3, me age 34. I’ve been doing the above - sneaking off on summer ski course (Snoworks), offpiste UCPA, and any other occasion I can get away. I’m keeping pace, apart from in the snowpark on jumps.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thank you all for the great advice and welcome. Unfortunately I've had this year's fun in the snow but my plan is to stick with what I have for now and try hiring for a couple of days to see whether the difference warrants the spend.
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Atomics of that era were really heavy. My 157 SL11s are nearly twice the weight of my 180 Scott The Ski.....fine for skiing, but shoulder bruising when carrying.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hairsy wrote: |
| Thank you all for the great advice and welcome. Unfortunately I've had this year's fun in the snow but my plan is to stick with what I have for now and try hiring for a couple of days to see whether the difference warrants the spend. |
I think that is a smart move.
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FAQ
