 Poster: A snowHead
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So I'm learning to ski and thinking I'm pretty good, after a week paralleling down all the blues and easy reds until I get to Soldeu for my 2nd week skiing and have a lesson.
Now the instructor pointed out a few bits, arm position and all that, all fairly easy to correct and all resulted in instant fixes, ie I felt more in control and it felt 'right'
Then she said my skis were too flat, that I needed to edge more, cue me losing all control every time I tried to do this, one ski going one way one the other. She explained the hip/knee movements, hips up the mountain and body away but it didnt feel right.
Now I practiced what I had been taught for the rest of the holiday (well some of it) but at no point did it 'click' as all the other techniques have. So I watched lots of other skiiers to see what they were up too and found that most skiied like me, ie parallel but messy, no clean lines, skis flattish no sharp edges, only maybe 25% max seemed to be skiing as she suggested.
So my guess is this technique is just hard to master and will take a lot of time to adapt to it, or am I missing something vital?, or am I just rubbish?, and is this known as carving or is that something else?
Apologies for the naivety of all the above but everyone has to learn sometime I guess  and the instrucotrs English wasnt too great so I couldnt really ask her all the above.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Monkfish, all very good questions. I could attempt my own answers, but I think it's probably best to wait for an instructor such as easiski to turn up, before you get a whole heap of advice from amateurs. A couple of things I would say: it's unlikely that you're 'rubbish' and it's worth persevering!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm no instructor. But as a punter/gaper;
It's harder and it takes longer to "get it" than any of the turning methods you've probably tried so far as it needs more precision, everybody struggles to get it at first, but it's good when it clicks  .
Yes, it's that carving thing. Railroad Tracks cut on the snow, no skidding noises and ultimately less tiring and faster than skidding.
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| Quote: |
every time I tried to do this, one ski going one way one the other. She explained the hip/knee movements, hips up the mountain and body away
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Sounds like you were making some moves to edge the ski.
However from the symptoms above, you were trying to move to the inside too much/quickly, which resulted in you ending up over your inside ski, which means that it will track away from your outside ski.
The first moves should be to "roll the ankle" to get the skis on their edges, whilst still balancing against the outside ski.
It's not an immediately natural movement to make, especially after being taught to rotate your leg/feet/skis to initiate a turn.
I've got a good progression for edging that I use with my students. Come up and see me. (Make me smile).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Monkfish, nah, like learning any new sports skill, it takes weeks of practice before skiing feels "natural". Of the people on the slopes around you, about 99% (I might be underquoting, tho) will be unlikely to be showing anything like an ideal carving technique. It's not coz carving is hard to learn. It's coz they're too tight or too arrogant to believe they need instruction to improve their technique. Having said that, it shouldn't take more than lessons for 2 to 3 holidays until you feel you've "got it" - depends, of course, on your dedication and the quality of the instruction!
P.S. if your instructor can't adequately explain, in your preferred language, the stuff you need to know about skiing, then you're allowed to ask the school to provide one who can. Insist on it! If the ski-school can't deliver you an compentent English-speaking instructor, ask for a refund and go find a school that will. No point sticking with instruction that's not doing the job you've paid it to do!
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Monkfish, We all seem to be assuming this problem is encountered during turns. Can you edge properly in traverse? Does the problem emerge during traverse? Did you do traverse exercises to get used to "feeling" your edges. I think these are very important and teach it to beginners, but not everyone agrees with me. If the problem is only apparent in the turn, then clearly you were, as veeeight, said, getting too much weight on your inside ski. What did she say about this? Did she offer a cure? BTW congrats for practising - pity not everyone does it!
Edging is not particularly hard to learn, neither is carving, but the subtlety of the amount of edge to use at any point in the turn is really experience and practise. 
BTW it sounds as if she was getting you to angulate - wht did she say about the hip position? men find this harder than women to start with, did she actually move you into position or just explain it? Did this attempt bring you further back than normal?
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To be honest I dont think I stood a chance with her limited English, she was supposed to be teaching my better half (who is a Spanish teacher!) who fell ill so I 'stood in' so to speak.
In answer to a few of the above, no I cannot edge very well on the traverse either, it is most defintely shakey. And no mention was made of the ankle veeight, it was all hips n body, point your hips to the mountain and body away to balance, felt like I was on a high wire in a circus.
Great fun learning though, it was just a bit of a shock to be brought down to earth in one hours lesson.
Think I look at a good English speaker now, it seems to get a bit more technical as you progress whereas the plough et al was maybe a little easier to teach.
Looking at one more week mid April so going to try and get one of the teachers recommended here to iron out my 'issues'.
As for wanting to learn 'properly' I probably clocked up 100+ days snowboarding self-taught and never had a lesson, then got 3 days private tuition in Chamonix and really learned how to board. Looking back I would have got so much more out of those 100 days if I had had the lessons first. Now my knees have told my its time to stop boarding I want to do it properly with skiing, no more bad habits touch wood.
Thanks for all the replies and suggestions, it is much appreciated
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Monkfish, If you can't edge well in traverse then you have no chance during the turn. I use ankle roll to edge in traverse (with the appropriate forward ankle flex of course), and then progressively knee and hip. It sound as if she was just teaching you angulation, without any of the necessary other skills to help you out. You need to be able to traverse and sideslip properly (edge control) before you tackle anything during a turn. When you fix your extra week, make sure you get help on this very basic but necessary skill. (I've had a least one student this year who's done loads of courses and had no edge control whtever - it just wasn't looked at/diagnosed - disgusting)! 
I've found in the last few years that teaching angulation before the student is really well positioned on the skis creates a sitting position and is a backward move.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Now I can side slip and go back onto the edge (this bit was just like snowboarding!) its when I am going forwards at any speed and definately a problem when I hit a bump or even worse somebody elses tracks - one ski follows the track the other goes straight. Its almost as if in 'edging' I have lost a lot of the control/strength in my legs to keep the skis in line, so I guess this is just technique flaws that can be sorted.
Anyway think I'm sorted. 'Carving' is tricky but can be learned. Its worth persevering with. Get lessons with a better teacher than the last one I had.
Thanks again.
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| Monkfish wrote: |
| definately a problem when I hit a bump or even worse somebody elses tracks - one ski follows the track the other goes straight. |
I think that might suggest you're not properly on both edges to begin with: a solid carve will slice through minor obstacles like a hot knife through butter. I wonder if the emphasis on angulation has led to your weight being mainly on an edged top ski, with the lower ski flapping. The terrain will then dictate what happens to the lower ski. Easiski?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Monkfish, As a boarder you'll know that carving through the turn requires you to keep pressure into the leading edge until you unwind and end the carve (do you know how to pedal your board?) otherwise the nose will wash-out and be knocked all over the hill by every lump and bump. Easyski will set you right but it sounds a bit like you might be riding the skis as a passenger rather than driving them 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Monkfish, how about switching to snow blades to learn carving. It is much easier to get the feel of having the ski on edge and the super tight turn radius means you don't keep reaching mach 1 and bottling out of the carve. I've just made the jump from blades to 150 fun carvers and found that the technique is just the same.
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Sounds about right Masque, as for snowblades it was a big enough jump from the board to the skis, I'll give it a few more years before I turn to something else! To be honest speed/fear/bottling hasnt really been an issue since I took up the skis, it does seem to be much safer than the board ever was
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| Monkfish wrote: |
| definately a problem when I hit a bump or even worse somebody elses tracks - one ski follows the track the other goes straight. |
I think that might suggest you're not properly on both edges to begin with: a solid carve will slice through minor obstacles like a hot knife through butter. I wonder if the emphasis on angulation has led to your weight being mainly on an edged top ski, with the lower ski flapping. The terrain will then dictate what happens to the lower ski. Easiski? |
Spot on
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Monkfish, It really does sound as though you're getting weight on the uphill and inside ski inapropriately. Do as much traversing as you can to start with, if you edge a lot the ski turns up the hill, just enough and you go straight, not enough and you begin to sideslip and/or turn down the hill. You should practise this over bumpy or rough terrain. You can also try to traverse on the downhill ski only, which will help your balance and finding the sweet spot on the ski, and will also help you to sort out which leg you're on. You don't have to have weight on the uphill/inside ski for it to edge and carve.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm with easiski, it sounds like you've just moved straight into hip angulation, thereby causing you to be on the inside (over the inside ski).
"Roll the ankles", then knees, and only finally with the forces allow, move the hip to the inside of the turn.
But it doesn't sound like you are properly balanced against your outside ski to begin with.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Monkfish, Why not have some lessons here in the UK ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Too expensive! (think I need individual rather than group lessons at the moment) And methinks this is best learned on snow now not carpet??? Got the basics down at Rossendale ski slope (and was glad I did rather than wasting the first days of my holiday) but not sure its for me anymore.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FAQ
but because it never changes it's great for practise 
