 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes, but WHY? And I'm a snowboarder.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Did Masque just buy something like this?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Didn't masque have an all in one boot several years ago?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Great links, Thanks!
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Presumably the frame carries itself about?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If you go to all that bother with the straps extra weight bulk on your skis etc, you might as well go the whole hog and snowboard instead.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@doddles, What. The. Ruddy. Hellfire... is THAT? You can practically hear the spiral fractures forming just looking at the photo!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There was a lot of innovation in the 80s, some of it forgotten now. The Nava System generated quite a bit of hype when it came out.
Around the same time, rear-entry boots were taking off, courtesy of Salomon. Look turntable bindings were the bindings of choice.
In Australia, someone invented a short ski with large sidecut, well before Elan invented the first parabolic ski in 1989. The Aussie one was made of some type of plastic and was filled with oil and ball-bearings, supposedly to redistribute weight. The idea was for it to be a learner ski - much easier to turn. Can't find any photos, unfortunately.
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@doddles, I was intrigued and did a google - found this!
Sounds mad, and amazing.
link
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You know it makes sense.
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@fixx, very cool.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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yep, and even saw some of them on the slopes in the US. I thought it was a great idea -- in my experience it's the discomfort of most rental boots (and low end boots in general) that discourage skiers. Also the weight and feeling of walking on ball bearings.
Same with rear-entry boots. I had a pair and they were infinitely easier to get on and off. I think they could have been developed into the standard but the companies were influenced by racers who said they were too soft and always would be.
With the exception of deep side cuts/shorter and wider, there has been zero innovation in ski gear since the first fixed heel. It's just been tweaking the basic setup endlessly.
I always thought ski boots should be like snowboards -- the binding and rigid frame for control should be integrated into one unit, and you step into it. I'm sure it's been tried, and if developed properly would probably suit 90 percent of us.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 20-11-17 16:16; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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<shrug> as someone who learned to snowboard in ski boots, I think they have an upside down world view, but each to their own.
The "soft boot with exo skeleton" concept was used by K2 for inline skates. I was never particularly convinced by the approach. An exo-skeleton may give you a weight saving, but structurally even if it worked as intended, it can't provide more than the equivalent hard shell. Looking at those exo-skeletal designs... I can't help thinking my race boots are a more elegant approach. But.. I'm looking for a snowboard boot with more control; they're looking for something else - a ski boot with more "comfort", perhaps?
Perhaps some people find snowboard boots more comfortable because badly fitting/ poorly designed boots are more tolerable if they're soft. That advantage goes away if you use an exo-skeleton.
Trying to control a race [snow] board with soft boots is a stretch. The idea of trying to control a ski with soft boots, even with the crutch of an exo-skeleton. Good luck with that..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You may be right, but it might be a matter of changing technique and ski construction to match soft boots with an exoskeleton. My larger point about innovation is that it seems odd that in 80 years or so, nothing about the basic ski/boot/binding/pole arrangement has really changed. Snowboarding has been a breath of fresh air, but I think its growth has stalled as skis get shorter and wider and easier to turn.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
nothing about the basic ski/boot/binding/pole arrangement has really changed
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I take your point, though I do think rear entry, and then mid-entry boots were a considerable change. These ultimately were aimed at comfort for the casual skier who does not need the high-performance of a traditional boot. And I think that's key to any new developments: realising that a very large number of skiers just want to slide around a little and are swayed much more by comfort.
But for any new system to get take-up with that sector of the skiing public, it needs to be massively taken up by rental shops. Like rear-entry boots were.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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the companies were influenced by racers who said they were too soft and always would be
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so... @Pasigal you clearly never skied in a pair of SX90 Equipes. Way too stiff for most people.
The problem wasn't stiffness, but precision and snugness of fit. Could probably have been solved. But for the racers who had effective bootfitting of 4 clip boots, it wasn't appealing enough a concept.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 20-11-17 17:27; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The exoskeleton is fundamentally flawed as a design for skiing. I tried the Apex boots which are supposedly pretty state of the art and they certainly had impressive marketing and a roster of elderly instructors/retired pros vouching for them. Best description Gawdawful. Too clunky and heavy by half, actually get increased pain from pressure spots on the foot/nerve trapping as pressure isn't applied all over the shell and that's before the bizarre oversizing they do from the get go (which I think is part of their "comfort" proposition). If you see real skiers rocking exo boots while bringing it on the hill then it'll be time, while it's the bunny slope posse or sedate instructors etc then I'd advise caution. Doubly so if the manufacturer can't even line up vid of a good skier skiing well on them for their websute.
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nothing about the basic ski/boot/binding/pole arrangement has really changed
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Not much about the basic tennis racket configuration has really changed in the same period either 
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Racers would say stiffness = precision.
I had forgotten about the SX 90/91/92s
My memory is shot but I had a pair of rear-entry internally heated boots around 1988 or so. I think they might have been Salomon, but a lower SX (70, perhaps). They were comfy but ugly as sin and instantly recognizable as uncool.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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True about the tennis racquet, but that is a game played on a closed court with a very strict set of rules, including about racquet size/ratio of hitting surface. Whereas skiing -- it's just sliding down a mountain.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I should have added that recreational skiers who are quite happy to sacrifice significant control in search of elusive comfort are probably barking up the wrong tree and would be better deciding if it was a hobby worth committing to then investing in a pair of properly fitted (read snug) boots. And for that bar the most freakish of feet or fused ankles etc there is nothing wrong with regular overlap boots whatever reactionary old timers might say.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@DotM: perhaps true, but first impressions are massive, and people who have never skied before will generally not be buying their own kit. So their entire first few experiences will be with rental equipment. If they come away from that with their feet in agony, they probably won't return. If, on the other hand, they have a good experience, then when they do buy their own kit it will probably be similar to what they rented. So I think there is a market for something simple, robust, and that fits multiple feet in a rental shop context.
Also, for such beginner casual skiers, comfort extends beyond the slopes. Walking to and from the slopes, apres ski (yes, even dancing on the tables in some dubious apres-ski bar packed with Ozzies and Kiwis) will also help form an impression. Any of that too uncomfortable or painful, the person won't continue.
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Ugly as sin and soft as a banana. Internally heated? Was that a standard option? (not something I recall).
SX 91/2 had flex adjustment (quite a neat system) but the difference and problem for most skiers were that the SX90Es had no adjustment and one stiffness which was too much for most people (except Marc Girardelli).
Stiffness does not equal precision.
Skiing takes its lead from ski racing (typically) which has its own prescriptions.
"It's just sliding down a mountain?" I refer you to the Apocalypse Snow series. Or, is snowboarding really actually skiing, except easier?
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You know it makes sense.
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@doddles, I'd agree, but any decent shop will have boots that are comfortable and snug enough to cope with the first few weeks. After that I think DOTM's point is valid. You want your own, comfortable boots.
That said, how anyone gets past the first day at Braehead is beyond me. Shocking rental boots.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| doddles wrote: |
@DotM: perhaps true, but first impressions are massive, and people who have never skied before will generally not be buying their own kit. So their entire first few experiences will be with rental equipment. If they come away from that with their feet in agony, they probably won't return. If, on the other hand, they have a good experience, then when they do buy their own kit it will probably be similar to what they rented. So I think there is a market for something simple, robust, and that fits multiple feet in a rental shop context.
Also, for such beginner casual skiers, comfort extends beyond the slopes. Walking to and from the slopes, apres ski (yes, even dancing on the tables in some dubious apres-ski bar packed with Ozzies and Kiwis) will also help form an impression. Any of that too uncomfortable or painful, the person won't continue. |
It's not against the law to buy a very light pair of trainers you can slip in a backpack or even sling round a ski rack ( that's what I do)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I remember going up to Glenshee with the first bit of kit I'd bought - boots - when I was in the first flush of enthusiasm, skiing in April when a big February dump had left Butcharts the only run skiable, having to walk up (before the Baddoch chair) to the Cairnwell Cafe before arriving on any snow. Trainers changed for the boots when I got to the Butcharts tow, and popped in a back pack.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@altis, yeah, back then they were just called ski boots.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, no, they made some specifically for snowboarding. Take a look at some of these:
http://www.alpinecarving.com/boot_models.html
On a shelf somewhere I have a pair of old Raichle SB121s. I had visions of using them for ski touring but they are very heavy.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Has anyone here actually tried a modern exo-skeleton ski boot? If so, what were they like?
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Yep the Apex - awful. Couldn't ski on them. Alignment was to poo-poo. Rep then compounded my view that they were emperor's new clothes by instead of taking my feedback suggesting it was because I was a shitty skier. Put my boots on got on the same skis - bingo back to being an agricultural jazzhander.
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@altis, I think before then they were just called ski boots. I think my wife still has a very old and original split board mid-eighties with ski bindings on it.
Yep, I think those were introduced in 1996-97 season (the women's and kids versions certainly were) which was a bit after my mates were screaming around with snowboards and (typically rear entry) ski boots (facilitating standing up on drag lifts).
My first snowboard experience was 1988 and I had on my normal ski race boots.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| under a new name wrote: |
Ugly as sin and soft as a banana. Internally heated? Was that a standard option? (not something I recall).
SX 91/2 had flex adjustment (quite a neat system) but the difference and problem for most skiers were that the SX90Es had no adjustment and one stiffness which was too much for most people (except Marc Girardelli).
Stiffness does not equal precision.
Skiing takes its lead from ski racing (typically) which has its own prescriptions.
"It's just sliding down a mountain?" I refer you to the Apocalypse Snow series. Or, is snowboarding really actually skiing, except easier? |
I agree on all points.
I have racked my memory and done some googling -- this was 30 years ago -- and now I think what I had was even worse than the Salomons, which was Nordica rear entry heated boots -- possibly the N7xxx model (720? 725?). At any rate, it seemed like a good idea at the time. (I think you are right that Salomon didn't have heated models then)
Regarding stiffness/precision...certainly true, but my bad habit is sitting back on my heels when I get tired, and I think I ski better in stiffer boots (so long as they fit well, of course...)
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@Pasigal, well you know, a friend who was an ex-Olympian downhiller skied Nordica rear entry as he preferred the flex. Who was I to argue?
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