 Poster: A snowHead
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I am thinking of getting some crampons for use with my marker duke set up but after reading Fatbob's thread on crap gear am wondering if i will ever use em..
I keep thinking if it is looking so sketchy that i would need these things i wouldnt go and if i didnt have em on when i set off there is no way i would put em on when in a dicey situation...
anyone have any experience with these things?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lots of people would say they are almost essential if you're likely to be skinning in hard conditions, on moderately aggressive skin tracks or on marginal traverses. It's notable that they don't seem to be used as much in N America due to softer conditions but perhaps someone like parlor can correct me on that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sometimes they are really nice to have but rarely essential IMO
some people love them, i find them a bit of a pain unless they are really necessary
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have done lots of half-day outings from Val d'Isere including quite a bit of skinning. I think I have used ski crampons two or three times in total. I seldom carry them unless we are expecting a difficult climb. On one or two occasions I would have liked them but did not have them.
For someone on a multi-day tour they may be a good thing to carry. For whole or half day trip from a resort they are normally not needed; the choice of whether, or not, to carry them can be made each day. Ski crampons can be hired for the day from some ski hire shops. For my last two skiing holidays I hired touring skis and, for a couple of days each holiday, hired ski crampons. I only needed them on one day. The ski crampons were free to hire as I already had skis from the same shop.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I carry flexible mountaineering crampons; if I'm on a steep slope that is icy I prefer walking with an ice axe and carrying my skis on the pack. Don't have ski crampons.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Short answer is yes! Best to rent them when you need them!
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True, you rarely see them here, mainly due to the conditions.
In Europe I only ever carried them if A) I knew I would be skinning the bone - basically never occurs, why are you out on skins in these conditions? or B) Hut-to-hut tours / serious Alpine starts later in the season when the freeze / thaw cycle means the "skin" track is a "death" track at c. 5am. (I guess there are exceptions and extensions to rule A but really on a set up with Dukes, ie. sidecountry, don't bother owning them).
What sweaman2 says, if it gets that bad then I will often swap to boot crampons and go straight up.
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And if swapping to boot crampons remember not to leave it to the last minute... nothing like trying to put crampons on on steep frozen ground to make you wish you'd put them on when on flatter ground 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, do you mean boot crampons or harscheisen / couteaux?
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Crampons are a life saver when you need them, both the boot ones and the ski ones. The ski crampons are very handy on traverses where the snow is hard and the track is poor. On one section of a day tour three people in front of me who were cramponless slid off the track and down 100m where I was fine. The result was "only" a bit of extra acent for them but could have been serious.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm afraid I'm in the camp that they are absolutely essential - and almost never go out without them. There will of course be days when you know you won't need them, but probably as many when it's a 20:80 call - and if you're half way up the hill when you hit that 20% and you don't have them, then you've just screwed your day and that of the rest of your group as well. It may only be 5-10 mins you need them for, but when you need them you need them. Of course, the better technique you have the less you'll need them in any given situation, but then as you gain experience to go with that technique you may get into tighter situations. But in general I'd say the less experienced you are the more important it is to have them with you. Whether you own them or rent them is a different question, and one you need to answer for yourself. I probably use them maybe 1 day in 10 when skinning is on the menu. If you're picking and choosing, the question is knowing when that day is - so I always carry them.
I've been out on a day when the guide said not to bother with them, but then found myself (and many of the rest of the group less experienced than me) having real problems. Sliding 300m down a 35+degree slope we were traversing along a km or two would definitely have been sub-optimal. Fortunately I'd ignored the guide's instructions so could sort myself out, and then help out a couple of the others who were having even bigger problems.
I had another day when we had real troubles getting aroud one steep corner, because there was an inch or so of really soft fine sugary snow over a harder base. The guide was losing his rag a bit at the mess we were making of it, as he'd assumed (as a couple of not-particularly-experienced Brits) we didn't have crampons with us - so he was even less even-tempered when we tentatively asked him whether it wouldn't be better with the crampons on! BTW, we didn't hire him again.
So if you do have them with you, make sure the guide knows. And even more so, if you don't have them with you, make sure the guide knows that. It'll put a bit more pressure on him in choosing the route, which I'm sure he'll enjoy  .
Sure they're a real pain to have on, but I'd prefer to put up with the discomfort of having to lift the foot a bit and glide a bit less than spend every stride praying that the skin holds, and being ready to catch the slide when it doesn't. It's OK for the odd 10 steps, but after a while gets rather nerve-wracking - particularly if the consequences are not great on the downside, or even just another 10 mins to get back up to where you slid from.
I'd agree that boot crampons are a possible alternative. But to go out without either boot crampons or harscheisen is just verging on the criminally irresponsible.
Are they a waste of time? I used them once or twice last year and had a couple of other times it would probably have been advisable. That's probaly typical. If you do only a week a year you may never use them from one year to the next, but they're important when needed. Considering another bit of "useless" kit, I've never ever used my transceiver in anger. Would you consider wearing a transceiver a waste of time?
(skimottaret, ah, sorry, just remembered I'd not replied to your PM back in summer. I guess I forgot about it as I had nothing really positive to say  )
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm about to swap out to some wider touring ski's but retain my Diamir Explore bindings. I've just realized the crampons I have for those bindings are going to be too small and they don't seem to do wider (107mm+) ones.
I was hoping a set of 'Harscheisen' will be an ok but looking at the design I'm not so sure. Any other suggestions ? Are a pair of boot crampons a realistic alternative ?
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skimottaret, given that you're planning on doing the EMS and that they can be a bunch of sadisdic bar stewards then I'd get some!
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You know it makes sense.
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thanks chappies looks like i will be buying some...
now 8mm or 10mm rope apparently i need 30 metres of the stuff plus
16' sling and 2 HMS Krabs
spray or rub on wax to stop skins from icing up
any ideas on this stuff and where to buy
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, Most of the on-line climbing shops will sort the rope\slings and Krabs. I've used www.facewest.co.uk before.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, Definitely get some for the exam, even if they're borrowed or rented. When I did the EMS, the only person who couldn't traverse the slope in the Aiguille Rouge was the guide who didn't have any couteaux with him. We were all happily sunning it up when he arrived at the col 20 mins after us having had to traverse low and then boot pack up - somewhat red faced too!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FlyingStantoni, Ta very much!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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houchard, welcome to  's any tips for the training and the assessment courses?
FlyingStantoni, will have a look at facewest stuff
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it's not that comfortable to dangle in,
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i dont do dangling and if it comes to that will be a fail for me...
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Poorly fitting skins can reduce ones ability to climb on hard packed snow. When zig-zagging up on some hard or icy snow only the uphill edges of the skis will be in contact with the snow. If the skins are too narrow for the skis then the skins may have little or no contact with the snow leading to poor grip. A good set of well fitted skins would be a wise investment and reduce the need for ski crampons.
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skimottaret, I'll second some of the comments above and say they are definitely worth having in the sack (most definitely if you are doing the EMS)... As GrahamN says 90% of the time they will probably stay in your sack all day but the odd time you need them you will be quite happy to have dragged them around all those other days.
Its not just a security on steeper/icier skins that is the issue - there can be a big energy gain even on non-dangerous terrain since they enable relaxed skinning in conditions with marginal grip (watch someone skinning close to the limit of the grip of their set-up and their whole body is tense - knackering for any amount of time). Also on days where there is soft stuff over a very firm base they can be a god send for stopping one or other ski breaking away downhill every few steps (tiring & frustrating).
It also seems to me from watching lots of people skin on different set-ups that the wider you go ski-wise, the sooner you are likely to need harscheisen on (due to edge being out from under the foot etc etc).
re Kit for EMS for ropes check out Decathlon next time you are out this way - they normally have 30m ski ropes on sale at reasonable prices. Harness shouldn't be needed as the EMS does not cover crevasse rescue etc, but security on steeper ground/confidence roping etc - certainly isn't in the kit list for the course...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, Hiya.
Tips? Well, I'd just get out there and practice until it's all easy for you to do. I saw people during their exam who couldn't kick turn / navigation was embarrassingly bad or they couldn't do the knots. The idea is that you want to pass!!
Listen to the guide and have alternatives in your head should they ask you mid-route to change for some reason (snow/steepness/heat etc).
Also, have gear that you can ski on. You're only going uphill for a few hours. There was one girl who had all the lightweight touring gear, but when it came to going downhill, she couldn't do it for toffee. She ended up in tears and failed the skiing side of it.
Definitely agree with Adrian, Make sure the skins fit well. Poor grip's like being Bambi on ice..... However, for the sake of 40€ and your season's training to get to the position of taking the exam, take some couteaux with you in your bag.
Harness - if you're going to get one (do you need one for the exam? We made the harness with the rope) there are even cheaper alternatives from Technique Extreme in Bourg St Maurice. Before you say they won't work, I saw my mate being helicoptered off the Cosmiques Arrete in Cham wearing one that cost 18€. Admittedly, he wasn't too happy about it, but as you say, you have failed if you need to dangle on it!
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thanks for the tips and info, i am on the Training course this year and wont be doing the assessment until i am ready , no rush as BASI courses are now just a for fun / training thing for me now.. I wont bother with a harness and i am on volkl mantras with dukes so a pretty wide/heavy ski , i cut the skins and they pretty much cover the whole base but i did a little skinning last year on horrible crust and did feel tense and insecure so the crampons make sense to me. also now have some dynafit titans after slipping all over the place in my race boots when walking up and scrambling.
offpisteskiing, Thanks for chipping in here, i was going to email you to ask if you could recommend any day trips from Mottaret or the greater 3V's that would count for logged touring days.. I am hoping to be able to get a few day tours in this year for practice before and after the training course. Would any routes from the BAUD, LOUCEL book be a good place to start? I am very new to all this stuff so a gentle intro would be in order. Did a week with Tom S and the Eagles last year but that is about the extent of my experience and i pretty much sucked that week.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, From memory the Baud/Loucel book is the Off Piste one? (ie mostly gravity-assisted) - Look for the Vanoise Ski de Randonnee book in the same range (Vamos editions) - a few ideas in there - also Les Cles des 3 Vallees has LOADS of good stuff - particularly around head of Les Avals and various other places...
From your place in Mottaret you can head straight out past Lac Tueda & keep going to Col des Fonds, Col Rouge, Col Chanrouge & lots of other spots (good for navving up higher but long flat under Aig du Fruit to start & on way back). Les Avals has lots to do at the right sort of D+/D- (1000m more or less IIRC in the specs for 'Quality Days') - Rocher de Plassa, Les Glacerets, Col du Biol, Breche Portetta... (and definitely worth spending time out there if you are thinking of doing the EMS in 3V).
Lots of options from VT too.
Email me for more info ...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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offpisteskiing, yup thats the one the Vamous off piste book, will try to get the randonnee. I also have the coffee table Les Cles book in the apartment so will look that over when i go out and look at the routes you suggest in Les Avals. Cheers!!
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skimottaret, Sounds like you're sorted then. Enjoy it, I learned stuff that I use every day ie. group management.
One of the best 'courses' I did through my BASI years!
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You know it makes sense.
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houchard, Im starting to look forward to it now !
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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One of our party, who has been skiing since the days of cable bindings, has described our day out in Les Avals with offpisteskiing as his best ever on skis. It certainly was memorable - especially the huge omlette in Ref. des Lacs Merlet(?).
I use the Axion harscheisen on my Fritschis. Early versions had problems with reliability and are now subject to a recall. However, they have one big advantage that I have been thankful for. While still mounted on the binding, they can be flipped up out of the way. This means you can fit them on easy ground and then just bend down and flip them down when you find you desparately need them - and then go round helping others put theirs on!
http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/about-us/company/recalls
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Poster: A snowHead
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altis, Yep, dead good. I've a pair and they seem a neat solution. A good idea to remove them before skiing though as they must restrict boot release.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, there's a good chance that I'll be going to Vieux Campeur the weekend before the Tignes trip. Do you want me to try to pick up the Vamos book for you?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FlyingStantoni, thanks for the offer but i just ordered it online
altis, AndAnotherThing.., Those look quite interesting but i am on Marker Dukes...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I wonder if any of you have tried "skin cleats"? They are a simplified ski crampon that snaps on quickly and gives enough traction without the inconvenience of bulky ski crampons.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@skimottaret, as others have said, you don' need them often but when you do, they are worth their weight in gold. Well, more than their weight in old as they don't weigh very much........ As you are on a "freeride" set-up you'll need them earlier than people on skinny rando skis, wide ski are harder to ski on
As to rope, get 8mm (Beal Rando) as you will never actually use it. Only get 10mm if you intend to get it out a bit (easier to handle). However, I'm intrigued to know what you are going to need a rope for without harnesses or any gear. Confidence roping is a tricky skill to master in summer, I imagine in winetr on skis it's a whole new ball game.
Are you taking an axe?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@galpinos,
Did you look at the date of the posts?
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| HammondR wrote: |
@galpinos,
Did you look at the date of the posts? |
Ummmm, nope. Oops.......
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@galpinos, you were bamboozled by Mr @telemarker40, trying to flog his solution without a problem (perhaps I am being uncharitable)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It depends on the conditions and the climb. In Scotland, skinning up a hill is unlikely to be possible all the way, due to conditions and terrain. Carrying lots of excess gear, just in case, is like carrying 5 gallons of water on a bike ride. It just slows you down when you do not need it.
Take a pair of ice grips for your boots, when your skis are on your backpack like most normal people who do not skin up hills!
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FAQ
