 Poster: A snowHead
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I've tuned my skis up and now have nice sharp (hanging burr free) edges nice and freshly waxed bases. My question is to do with sharpening the side edge in the area of the rocker/change in side cut.
I can feel the differance as the 200 grit diamond stone starts to polish up the side edges on the "straight", but as the guide starts to move round the rocker it feels graunchy and wont smooth out, diamond stones are 200 and 600 and i'm reluctant to keep going with the 200
1. All work hardened edge sections are deburred with the alu oxide stone first
2. Diamond stones are used well lubricated
3. Guide angle is 89 - this is the correct angle for the skis so i'm just tuning not creating the angle from scratch
My thoughts:
A. Could it be the side wall at the rocker section needs trimming back?
B. Is the edge angle set slightly differant in this area (at the factory) and the diamond is having to take off more metal than its designed for, so a file should be used first to set the angle
Should I not sharpen in this area and just de tune whats there with a gummy stone down/up to where the tip/tail curves in - approx 45-50mm from tip/tail on my Rossignol EXP 84's or should it be as sharp as the rest of the ski all the way along the edge - conflicting advice everywhere on this 
Thanks
Jason
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I always used to sharpen my rockered sections just the same as the rest of the edge but I have had one hook up on a little bump once. Really it's not strictly necessary as that part of the ski is not in contact on hardpack and in deeper snow sharpness isn't an issue.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hi Scarpa
That makes sense, will ask spyderjon but i believe he is away at the moment, just want to make sure its done correctly
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I never detune, I find it hard to get the flexible rocker tip as sharp as the middle of the ski anyhow 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Scarpa, cheers for the reply, it's certainly easier tuning the middle, enjoyable actually 
I will update after speaking with spyderjon
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Modern skis don't need detuning. If you knew how to ski, old skool ones didn't either...
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@Scarpa, on limited thinking, on 203s etc an inadvertent edge catch could be pretty dramatic.
Balance is everything. (Other than timing) 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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All sorted now, skis tuned, will update fully on my return
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What are you lot talking about? Of course, you should be detuning tip and tail... Modern skis do need detuning. You go out and ski sharp edges tip to tail you're going to have a bad time. fact.
p.s. a gummy stone will help get rid of those burrs it will soften that metal up with some heat.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
You go out and ski sharp edges tip to tail you're going to have a bad time. fact.
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Nope.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| princeeliot wrote: |
| What are you lot talking about? Of course, you should be detuning tip and tail... Modern skis do need detuning. You go out and ski sharp edges tip to tail you're going to have a bad time. fact. |
This guy who makes a living out of servicing skis and teaching others how to service skis disagrees.
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@princeeliot, So totally wrong. I'm sure all racers learn how to detune their tips before starting gate practice 
When I engage the tips at the start of a turn I want them to bite and get that ski flexing ASAP not skid and chatter on hardpack.
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You know it makes sense.
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@princeeliot, So totally wrong. I'm sure all racers learn how to detune their tips before starting gate practice
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he's not wrong at all, and yes a lot of them do
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@moseyp, generally no need to detune and I'd be amazed if any do.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@under a new name, it's very common, an inch or two of the tops and tails with a gummy, sometimes depending on conditions. stops "hooking" or grabbing, and done at all levels
personally I do it
you can experiment with it , just have a gummy in your bag and adjust as necessary
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@moseyp, Some race skis have tip rocker so I don't see the point of detuning them.
I can't recall ever feeling that my edges were too sharp, what kind of conditions do you feel would require a detune ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@rjs, kids do it on dry slope so it's not only specific to conditions - but as a general guide, on harder snow
that's not my opinion though, it's just how it is
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@moseyp, ah, that's very, very specific. I don't think there are any dry slopes in France or Switzerland. I don't see it as very common here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, I didn't say only on dry slope, I said
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kids do it on dry slope so it's not only specific to conditions
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I referred to dry slope to suggest that it's not only necessitated by snow conditions
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@moseyp, What do you feel in a course on injected snow if you don't detune ?
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@rjs, noone has mentioned "injected snow"!!!
hard, aggressive snow is not the same thing as injected, and I've already written about it six posts back but here it is again
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stops "hooking" or grabbing, and done at all levels
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also, it's not "what you feel if you don't detune" - it's a personal choice, not every racer will choose to detune where others might
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Anyway, I would suggest to the OP that the best person to ask is their coach if they are race training in Tignes this week. Rather than listen to us all quarrel over it!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It may be that adjusting the angle towards the tip is more common with racers as in maybe going from a 86 to an 87 degree edge, I've known people who do that. But just speaking from personal experience I don't know anyone racing who actually detunes as described to the average skier.
BUT... I'm not a racer, I'm just feeding back what I've seen and heard.
BTW... Getting rid of burrs is totally different from deliberately bluntening an edge which is what de-tuning is.
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| moseyp wrote: |
| Anyway, I would suggest to the OP that the best person to ask is their coach if they are race training in Tignes this week. Rather than listen to us all quarrel over it! |
No way, I've gone through 2 bags of popcorn since I started World War III
Like most on here I listen to Spyderjon who's opinion I and many others trust, I had a good chat with Jon and he advised:
1. Sharpening the whole length of the ski to start
2. If they do get a bit hooky, increase base angle slightly 25mm either side of the contact point, slightly means a turn or two tape around the base edge angle guide to increase the angle by less than one full degree i.e. .2ish
3. Ski, if needed repeat step 2 as required
4. If required, very lightly run gummy 3 times at 45 degrees between the end of the changed base angle area and the tip of the ski
5. If tails hooky repeat above steps as for tips
Spyderjon has always been very generous with his time which is why I post these queries on the forum, this way thousands of others potentially benefit from the one phone call and those of us interested in tuning can increase our knowledge base.
Having said the above I am always open to listening to others opinions if they bring something to the table with the experience to back it up
Thanks to you all for your contributions to this thread
Jason
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| princeeliot wrote: |
What are you lot talking about? Of course, you should be detuning tip and tail... Modern skis do need detuning. You go out and ski sharp edges tip to tail you're going to have a bad time. fact.
p.s. a gummy stone will help get rid of those burrs it will soften that metal up with some heat. |
Assuming you mean a hanging burr that is differant conversation surely?
Nice website BTW, looks like you have carved out a good niche in the mountains
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Fish_Head wrote: |
| moseyp wrote: |
| Anyway, I would suggest to the OP that the best person to ask is their coach if they are race training in Tignes this week. Rather than listen to us all quarrel over it! |
No way, I've gone through 2 bags of popcorn since I started World War III
Like most on here I listen to Spyderjon who's opinion I and many others trust, I had a good chat with Jon and he advised:
1. Sharpening the whole length of the ski to start
2. If they do get a bit hooky, increase base angle slightly 25mm either side of the contact point, slightly means a turn or two tape around the base edge angle guide to increase the angle by less than one full degree i.e. .2ish
3. Ski, if needed repeat step 2 as required
4. If required, very lightly run gummy 3 times at 45 degrees between the end of the changed base angle area and the tip of the ski
5. If tails hooky repeat above steps as for tips
Note: i filed back the sidewall slightly in the tip area and smothed with 400 grit wet/dry this allowed the diamond stones to work correctly, this initial diagnosis was correct
Spyderjon has always been very generous with his time which is why I post these queries on the forum, this way thousands of others potentially benefit from the one phone call and those of us interested in tuning can increase our knowledge base.
Having said the above I am always open to listening to others opinions if they bring something to the table with the experience to back it up
Thanks to you all for your contributions to this thread
Jason |
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If you're racing, I see no point in downgrading performance. Unless you're not that good. Definitely, no question, for SL.
If you're not racing, and that committed to detail, you've probably been taken in by the marketing and on rockered skis anyway. So what's the point detuning something that isn't doing anything when you'd need it detuned anyway?
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You know it makes sense.
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On these sites interviewing top WC race prep technicians the only mention of detuning is for speed skiing or certain specific conditions.
http://www.tognar.com/blog/world-cup-tuning-tips/
http://www.modernskiracing.com/Butz.php
"Once the base bevel is set, I’ll use the progression of diamond stones and ceramic stones to polish the edge. With the bevels you’ve got, you can leave the skis super sharp, or moderate the sharpness with a gummi stone. For certain conditions, or certain athletes, you don’t need the skis as sharp. For hard ice, you need a good honed edge. When the snow is softer, particularly in speed events, you need to detune the skis and take a little of the bite off so they are easier to control."
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have to admit, I set all my skis to 3 degrees side and 1 base. I used to have my SL skis at 0.7 base but for my level of skiing that was not really needed. Even on the fat powder skis the increased grip comes in handy when I take them on hard pistes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@PaulC1984, +1
my SLs were 0 base as why would you want to remove performance?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The bottom line is, the freshly tuned skis were superb this morning up on the hard piste
Once again thanks to most of you for your input
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Fish_Head, nice 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If you're racing, I see no point in downgrading performance. Unless you're not that good. Definitely, no question, for SL.
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It doesn't downgrade performance, it stops skis hooking
@Scarpa, that tech is talking about the full edge of the ski - it's not related to what we're discussing which is detuning two inches of the ski. google ski racing detune tips and see what comes up
@PaulC1984, I'm not a kid though, nor do I take tuning advice from children. I'm talking about athletes and techs at all levels - or any holiday skier who finds it more comfortable
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about what's right for you rather than what others are doing to suit them
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this is exactly what I've been saying - there's not point taking ski prep advice specific to your own skiing from conflicting semi anonymous posters on the internet, in particular when you're away training with very good race coaches. I wouldn't do anything but ask them for advice
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@moseyp, The article covers the entire range of tuning techniques. I have also googled 'ski racing detune tips' and bug all comes up from actual WC ski techs, in fact very little comes up on that subject at all.
Most results that are there are from many years ago or just personal anecdotes. I'm not suggesting that there is never a need to detune but that as a standard proceedure it is pretty out of date. Changing edge angle towards the tips is the way most people go to avoid hooking up. Also factor in that a race prepped ski is likely to be sharper than what most recreational skiers are used to.
In case I am actually wrong on this score I'll sound out some of the young racers when I get back out to Austria and see what they say.
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@moseyp, If you're on SLs you want them to respond as quickly and forcefully as they can. Detuning will reduce this and therefore performance.
"Hooking"? What's that then?
If you mean because of e.g. hanging burr, then that's different.
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@Scarpa, did you read the articles you posted? Because the first one does suggest detuning around the contact points at tip and tail, and the second article doesn't mention it at all (the reference he's made to detuning edges is not what we are talking about here)
I've gone through the first few google pages and there's a huge amount about it, as I guess you saw yourself. There's also plenty of pages of the same argument on different forums, here's two from TGR and SH itself a few years back
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-126348.html
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=1781646
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Or read the tuning guides from Swix, Holmenkol, Tognar, Toko etc. If you still think they're all wrong then I can't keep arguing this!
4.edge finishing
Edges on the front and back of the ski / board, that do not influence gliding properties (the part of the edges, that has no contact to the trails during straight position of the ski) should be rounded.
New cut edges and extremly sharp edges at the back and front end of the ski / board reduce the turning properties and may easily result in driving mistakes. Therefore, the edges at the front and back areaare lightly defused at a length of 5 to 15 cm (edge grinding rubber). The edge grip is preserved and the ski / board keeps its turning properies.
DETUNING The edges should be rounded off with a file from the point where the edge contacts the snow, up around the ends. Polish away the factory grinding or hand-file striations with a stone. Depending upon skiing style and ski manufacturers’ recommendations, you might want to slightly detune (dull) the edges back from the contact point about 15 centimeters. Use the Swix Soft Gummy Stone (T0992) or Diamond Stone (TAA200). Swix Fibertex T266N also works for this. Rub the stone back and forth along the edge point to reduce the sharpness. This is a good stone to carry with you - if the ski is hooking at the ends of the turns more than you want, detune the edge more and/or further back from the ends.
Dulling, on the other hand, is more like performing a lobotomy. It's usually done on new skis or boards with a file and/or deburring stone to intentionally dull (or radically bevel) base edges at the very tip and tail where skis and boards lift up out of the snow. Edges here curve dramatically in toward each other, and should be addressed so they don't unexpectedly engage in bump troughs, ruts, crusty snow or other funky condition to revector your planned line of travel downhill off in some new, wild and unanticipated direction.Yikes! Detuning refers to the subtle "massaging" of an edge's sharpness or base bevel near tips and tails to intentionally adjust performance of a ski or board. On old traditional skis, detuning behind the contact points made a skis less grabby and "hooky" for easier control...but detuning a shaped ski can make the ski more "nervous" due to shortening the effective running surface, plus the skis won't initiate turns as desired due to the decreased radius and running surface. So for shaped skis find the contact point of the tip and tail (you can do this by placing the ski on a flat surface and marking the sidewall at the points that the ski contacts the flat surface) and detune from contact point forward on the tip and contact point backward on the tail.
5. Rounding/dulling of edges in front and back: • Some prefer to dull or detune the edges in the front and back sections of the skis or snowboard. If you feel that the tip cuts out to the inside at the start of a turn too quickly, then you can round the edge on both sides of the tip. Use the diamond stone TAA200 and dull the edge in the “shovel” area from the point of snow contact and forward. Do the same procedure at the tail section of the ski or board, approx. 2 inches. If you want to take advantage of the entire turning curve on the skis/ snowboard or want to optimise use of the front section, then there is no need to dull the tip and tail sections. Depending on skill level, technique and application, some prefer this alternative.
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"Edges on the front and back of the ski / board, that do not influence gliding properties (the part of the edges, that has no contact to the trails during straight position of the ski) should be rounded. "
That's fair enough...but it's not what's typically referred to as detuning.
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