Are the worst skis sometimes the best?

A snowHead

Well, Dr Lawn got me thinking. And I thought this.

There was a day when Ant and I were hacking up a hill outside Lewes, deep in conversation and spinning the granny rings, me on a nicely balanced Marin hardtail and Ant on his ancient Titanium 'found in a hedge' frame - when a guy WALKING up the steep bit flagged us down. We thought he must have shed a chain or damaged something and needed help. No, he wanted to show us his latest-kit-infested frame, and all the 'its the best...' jewellery hanging off it. We were not impressed. We had seen him quit ahead of us almost at the bottom of the hill. We are on top of new gear, but not always out on it. Then, later in the week on the friction-inducing grass of Itford Hill - one of the most fatigue-inducing drags on the South Downs, I rattled past a group of males and females on full-sus Specialised. One guy broke away after I passed and I could see him trailing me by about 100m all the way up the hill. Curious, I stopped at the tumulus at the top, and he caught up. 'Oh', he said, when he saw the ancient full-sus which I was on, '...I thought you were on something good...'. I was speechless, really. 'Er...no, I just sort of rode up the hill....'. Latest is certainly not always best.

Hmmm....now skis.

I really don't always like to be on 'best' skis. There's a strong psychological issue to this. At many times I really don't want to be skiing in a mental state where I am concerned about damaging my skis. And sometimes I want to be on skis which I know inside out, in terms of their performance envelope, since this envelope fits perfectly with my automated habits of weighting, edging and turn radii. Sometimes - not always of course - skiing tentatively and with your mind on the gear is exactly what you DON'T want - and is quite simply dangerous. If I am doing something really stretching, the last thing I want is intrusive, irrelevant thoughts impinging on my concentration. So somedays it is indeed the battered old stuff which hangs in the gondola racks, looking very sad against the latest offerings gleaming next to them. But hey ho, who gives a s++t, when it's the skiing which counts.

A snowHead

I sort of agree and disagree. Just because something is old and battered does not mean it is not up to the job, some of my fishing and sailing gear is ancient but still highly functional.

That being said I have some of the latest and greatest skis, but I ski them the same way I ski my old battered ones. I.e. I just ski them and enjoy their unique characteristics. I certainly am never concerned about damaging them. And the suggestion it is dangerous to push it because you are on the latest technology is frankly absurd.

That being said - this obsession with the latest gear is getting pretty unhealthy!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@valais2, it wasn't until you mentioned "rode" in your last sentence that I had a clue what you were talking about - for the most part I have successfully avoided two wheels in my life - walking uphill is challenge enough Toofy Grin

I'm wondering how you are going to make your new skis into old slippers (ugh groan) if you don't use them in all conditions? Though I can understand that there might be days where old ones are more reassuring. How long does it take to become intimately familiar with new skis?

And do you really worry about what people think about your old skis? wink

I'm completely with you that function trumps appearance.

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There have been times when I have wished I were skiing on rock-hoppers.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@zikomo, drat ... I certainly DIDN'T mean to imply that....

ie

'...And the suggestion it is dangerous to push it because you are on the latest technology is frankly absurd...'

Indeed, that would be absurd. I was really only talking about one thing, which I have indeed noticed in myself and others, that fear of damaging kit can get in the way psychologically, sometimes to a dangerous extent if it inhibits commitment, concentration and performance. Certainly I don't fret about damaging bases since a quick repair of a big divot is easy enough. But I can get pretty hacked off when it's the first time out that I blow an edge on a new pair of skis. I managed to turn onto the only protruding ground rock on-piste at half term - scrrrrunch grind - on skis which luckily I had just 'demoted' to hack skis, otherwise I would have been pretty miffed.

I think you are spot on when you say ' I ski the new kit exactly as I ski the old battered ones...' - I catch myself NOT doing that sometimes on a very new pair of skis, and have certainly seen the same thing amongst skiing friends on the hill, sometimes with a real impact on how and what they do. And the key thing about this is it's only a mindset, and so can be adjusted simply....to get rid of it, and get the concentration back on the right things....

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@motyl, ...er I think I do ... at least in passing sometimes. I am 'gear conscious' in that I get to review stuff sometimes, and it does make me a bit (too?) conscious of kit. My son (even though only 11) has caught the 'why is that ski better than this one' bug, and is very interested in kit performance (hardware, clothing and other bits) - I think climbing increases the consciousness of the performance (not appearance) of things, too. Having or not having a leash (what type, how long, how tight etc) on an ice axe (which axe, hammer or adze, how long, how heavy, what grading) might seem a trivial and irrelevant issue, but really counts on the hill. And so a concentration on kit detail I guess can translate into 'grief my skis look crap....'.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@valais2, with both skis and bikes I tend to buy the best that I think is out there at the time, but then hold on to them for a long time. I skied my Völkl P30s for almost ten years, my Mantras for about seven and now I'm mostly on the RTMs because I don't get to ski off piste as much as I used to. My Strolz boots were expensive at the time, but are now > 15 years old. Am now thinking about new boots from Martina Ertl's shop.
Same with my MTBs, the last one I rode for ten years, and have just recently bought a new Cannondale ( don't ask, I have just always had really good experience with Cannondale for the kind of MTB I do ).
Works for me!

@Steilhang, ...interesting...I do very much the same thing.

And Cannondale. I had an SM800 (the one which had the head tube failures) as a second bike way back in the 80's. Stolen. Although I have a hack bike with the same frame, in the shed.
Then Marins, Oranges, Kleins, and more Oranges (the latest being an Alpine 160).
And....just now building an F6 up, found it for a few GBP from a guy who bought it in Japan. Turns out I can use almost nothing from it other than the frame, box now of totally crap components - so a nice frame-up build using RockShox 120s upfront, Hope all over, and really use the quality of the frame in the build. Will be a fun ride at Easter on the South Downs - or maybe the classic 'stiff but bruising Cannonade feel'.

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@valais2, Klein... sadly no longer around, but great bikes at the time. Not cheap! I too have had three MTBs stolen over the years Evil or Very Mad

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I think you're (deliberately?) being confused about correlation and then mixing in skill issues.

There's unlikely to be any correlation between owning expensive gear and being skillful. Some people believe there is, or they'd not sell things this way. I doubt you'll find those people here.

If you turned up on ancient gear I'd conclude nothing about your ability until I'd seen what you can do on it. If you passed me on a climb riding an old clunker I'd be impressed, but it would not make me want to ride old stuff myself.

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@valais2, i think your thread title is a little misleading.

My Mantras were absolutely the best thing I could find when I bought them (half price mid summer, prior year's graphics).

They have only been replaced as they will not stand another service. Which is not bad after 6 years and estimated 330 ski days. About twice the expected life.

I took them out last weekend as I expected poorer cover and they really are an exceptional ski.

I've been riding an old carrera krakken for years, only the frame is standard now, hope hubs on full tubeless set up, dt swiss forks, dropper post etc etc and I get a kick out of riding it still but no way is it as capable or as fast as my nice shiney new stumpy. So to skis, I loved my original B1s but they wore out (bases getting too thin after too many base grinds) and although they're probably better piste skis than what I've got now, I try not to stay on the pistes too much!
Not sure what my point is though but I thought I'd share it with you anyway cos it's too wet to go out on either of my bikes!

You know it makes sense.

@under a new name, yep. Brilliant ski. I'm told the new ones are crap unfortunately. If I'm looking for something similar soon I might look at what Blizzard have to offer.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

I've still got my Klein Attitude from 1995..........

A snowHead

I'll see your Klein and raise you a Pace RC200 F3, still ride it although it's gone all singlespeed Cool

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Mosha Marc, @KenX, ... nice ...

I see your Klein and Pace

I raise you

Marin titanium serial 00000026 torched by Gary Helfrich

And

Bontrager Racelite from Keith B's garage

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@KenX, @Mosha Marc, ... actually, here's an idea ...

A 'distributed' museum of mountain bikes (remember Breezer? And Alpinestars with the 'elevated chain stays'. And Zhaskars?) Snowheads who own these antiques - listed on SH?

Could indeed do the same for skis.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@valais2,

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@Steilhang, I think (!) Mrs UANN is now riding next years model which is a significant return to old form. I am on Blizzard Bonafides which aren't as "polyvalent" but have their high spots. You just need to be a bit more on top of them.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

One day, I might be a good enough skier to tell the difference between abc's model of ski and xyz's model. Whilst I can tell the difference between a 13.5m radius ski and an 18m radius (after the 18 didn't quite turn as I expected and nearly took me into a pylon Shocked

) the subtle differences are beyond me.

After all it is free

@tangowaggon, +1. (Except I'll never be good enough.)

I love holding back and buying 1 or 2 or even 3 year old new gear the savings make it worth it as alot of the time it is cosmetic changes rather than anything revolutionary. My bike had a massive savings over the new model which had near identical spec bought it a week before the new one was available and saved £1500.

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@tangowaggon, @Hurtle, There are only 2 types of skis IMHO those you like and those you don't, horses for courses and all that Smile

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I've never had new skis (currently on 2nd hand 2011 k2 impacts from ebay that have more than payed for themselves in hire savings) so can't comment but agree with the mountain bike things. I have an old One 456 summer season built from a £70 ebay frame with old bits of a marin from 2007. Updated brakes to slx shimano and that's it. It does what I need but when rolling next to my mates 29er Scott or his 650.b full suspension sesh he just rolls away easily. There's obviously less rolling resistance however when we go out on rough downhill trails with a club on Wednesday evenings I'm constantly having to brake unnecessarily as all the guys who have passed me uphill are slow downhill even though equipped with the latest enduro (the latest in word!) bikes and top to toe in pads. I'm no riding God, but they seem to love spending thousands for little or no more advantage!

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I've never had new skis (currently on 2nd hand 2011 k2 impacts from ebay that have more than payed for themselves in hire savings) so can't comment but agree with the mountain bike things. I have an old One 456 summer season built from a £70 ebay frame with old bits of a marin from 2007. Updated brakes to slx shimano and that's it. It does what I need but when rolling next to my mates 29er Scott or his 650.b full suspension sesh he just rolls away easily. There's obviously less rolling resistance however when we go out on rough downhill trails with a club on Wednesday evenings I'm constantly having to brake unnecessarily as all the guys who have passed me uphill are slow downhill even though equipped with the latest enduro (the latest in word!) bikes and top to toe in pads. I'm no riding God, but they seem to love spending thousands for little or no more advantage!

One 456 is a front suspension only for those not in the know plus I've got shorter than recommended forks because it's what was kicking around in my garage.

You know it makes sense.

I have only had one pair of skis new as a present of the wife all my skis are second hand but have all been like new but for a big discount on price, I love people who buy new every year and sell there gear cheap the only problem I have is if I see a bargain I struggle not to buy it, I could probably supply a small outdoor pursuits center with all my stuff.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I have only had one pair of skis new as a present of the wife all my skis are second hand but have all been like new but for a big discount on price, I love people who buy new every year and sell there gear cheap the only problem I have is if I see a bargain I struggle not to buy it, I could probably supply a small outdoor pursuits center with all my stuff.

A snowHead

@Whitty, was going to post something similar. Regularly see guys on trails with £2.5k+ bikes. I'm on a 750 quid hardtail but often find myself having to sit up because I'm stuck behind someone that's out of their depth. It was really bad around new year, plenty of people giving themselves Christmas presents Very Happy

Sometimes I wonder if those guys would benefit from riding a crappy bike, learn how to deal with something that bucks you around rather than a silky smooth full suss.

A snowHead

Whenever I see an Orange bike, I like to ask the owner why the label is wrong... unless it really is orange of course.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@ski, my latest Orange is green.

At least some Oranges are labelled 'Strange'...

http://singletrackworld.com/2017/01/hot-news-oranges-strange-bikes-division-shows-enduro-e-bike-prototype/

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I do find that there is quite a lot of anti-snobbery about gear (in numerous sports). Same in the car world - in an age where anyone can buy anything (within reason) on finance, it seems that enthusiasts now require you to drive around in some second-hand thing that smells of wee in order to be a "true petrolhead".

It's nonsense. People should be allowed to like what they like, ski/drive/ride what they want and be free from judgement. As someone said - there is no correlation between new kit and enhanced skill: but similarly, if you are still driving/riding/skiing some old, obsolete piece of kit because sheer bloody-mindedness is telling you too, you're not really doing yourself any favours either.

Technology moves on. Embrace it, don't embrace it, but don't sneer at people with a different approach to you!

Disclosure: my skis range from 6 (WD Preacher) to 2 years (Head Worldcup Rebel i.SL) old, my bike is a 7 year old Fuji Mt Fuji SL hardtail, and my cars are a 2008 Aston, 1990 Saab 900 Turbo and a 2005 Morgan (and a really knackered 2002 Focus as a beater). So fairly eclectic. I don't get cross with people who lease their cars any more than I get upset about people who drive new bikes and must have the latest skis each year. But in every field of enthusiasm I have, there are always those who go on an on about their old stuff, how it's all you need, and that only try-hards and amateurs need new kit. Weird attitude.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Slightly off topic (funnily enough I was having this conversation about attitudes to equipment over the weekend, hence my interest in this thread), but I find that Saab owners/enthusiasts are the worst. Whenever I am driving this, I inevitably get a comment about how nice it is (which is lovely) and then about how modern cars are rubbish compared to this one (which they are not).

It's a nice car, and quite special in its own way. But compared to anything built recently it is slow, thirsty, clumsy, basic, bad for the planet and much more likely to result in my injury should I crash it.

Just because stuff is old and pretty, doesn't mean it is as fit for purpose as newer kit. And frankly, if I had many millions of poinds at my disposal, I'd have the latest pair of custom made skis this season as well as a Ferrari GTC4Lusso to take them, Lady Flash and me to resort, thanks very much!

Untitled by baconrashers, on Flickr

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@Harry Flashman, you're right that people should be able to ski/drive/ride what they want, but I think that's what gives rise to the anti-snobbery thing. For as long as people say "you should get..." I'll be quite happily pointing out how you can still do things on a budget.

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After all it is free

@iskar, ...do the words 'sports pyschology', in that order, mean anything? If not, ignore the thread.

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@Harry Flashman, Can I judge you more on your personalised plate and that you've just put normal unleaded in it over and above the car itself? wink

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Are the worst skis sometimes the best?

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