Clothing for -20

A snowHead

The place we are going in Austria is currently forecasting -20 for the next week! last time we skied was around -5.
Just wondering what you experienced people would expect to be wearing in around-20 conditions.
Im the type of person that feels the cold!

Thanks in Advance.

A snowHead

Lots of layers

- Merino Base layers
- Light Fleece eg. Polartec 100
- Heavier Fleece
- Down Gilet
- Windproof/Snowproof outer layer

Warm Gloves/Mitts (warmer than gloves)
Glove Liners (Polartec/Merino/Silk)
Hand warmers as back up if necessary
Scarf/Snood/Face protector
Merino Socks

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Layer upon layer upon layer!
You'll find you will cool down very, very quickly. Waiting at the top or bottom of lifts can be pretty sapping of energy!
I tire quicker in the proper cold as I'm guessing more calories are being used to keep me warm enough!
You can buy disposable boot sole warmers (they go on the insole) and disposable hand warmers for inside your gloves.
I always wear a 'normal' pair of socks under my ski socks too along with 2 pairs of trouser base layers!
Any 'gaping' between your goggles and helmet will create brain freeze too!
Good luck wink

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@snome,

The big issue is this ... I climb and ski a lot in the Alps, and we actually quite like minor epics when doing both. But we don't like undue risk. I have had my two wee ones out on the hill in conditions which others call into question - zero viz an minus 15 with 10 degrees of windchill. It's about managing the risk, and not just about clothing. So...a few questions.

Is it just adults you are asking for? And how many?

A few things

- actually most people feel the cold to -10 and then don't feel any colder as the temp goes deeper, but the risks go up, a lot
- don't get wet - either from the inside out or the outside in; at all. Vent if you are feeling sweaty, or you'll chill the moment you stop
- exposed wrists and face parts are a big risk - wear gloves which seal properly around the sleeves, get microfleece buffs
- block up or close the vents in your helmet
- get high performance goggles and wear them
- get lots of layers on your chest, that way the body keeps the bloodflow to your extremities
- take spare gloves, and the moment gloves feel sweaty, swap them out for the dry ones, which you then dry inside your jacket in the goggles pocket
- keep an eye on each other for ANY ice forming on noses, cheeks etc, and don't ignore it - massage the part immediately if you spot it, and get off the hill
- hunker on lifts, and turn away from the wind
- wear longs underneath ski trousers
- keep ski boots looser rather than tighter, do not wear more than one pair of socks
- everything under your shell jacket and trousers should be wicking stuff - any cotton or cotton mix - do not wear
- most good kit (peak p, rab, mountain equipment, etc) will be good to these temps, just layer up and seal all the gaps
- wear mitts rather than gloves if you get cold digits, or Hestra Lobster gloves

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

A. How firm is the forecast?

B. Pretty much the above. -20 isn't outrageously cold, but is indeed pretty chilly. Modern materials should cope well. But beware frostbite, check exposed skin, no earrings, silk gloves liners, etc.

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Here's what I used for minus thirty the other week in BC...
Top:

compression shirt
t-shirt
thickish fleece
Arc Atom jacket
Burton AK lined jacket

mitts
face cover thingy
Bottom:

compression tights
Burton TWC pants

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I've been on 2 holidays with large groups of not very experienced skiers without tons of mountain kit where it's got below -20, in one case (in Are), it never got above -15 in the village for the entire week. Neither time did anyone get into any significant discomfort, so no need to worry. Perhaps we stopped a bit more regularly - i don't fully recall!

For your body, stick with the tried and trusted base layer, warmth layer, shell layer. Personally I hate merino and thick base layers, and in -20 still have a comfy (to me!) thin running t-shirt as a base layer. Load up your mid layers for warmth. Polartec (stretchy & comfy) fleece and a warm gilet or just a 300 wt fleece should do it.

As @flangesax, says, make sure your head is covered. Completely. Assuming you are a helmet wearer, I bring out a thin stretchy polartec balaclava at about -5, and then a facemask at -10. Any exposed skin below -15 gives me almost immediate pain and is a frostbite risk, but doesn't seem to bother everyone.

Legs - never personally needed anything under standard skiing trousers at -20.

Gloves - double layer. I use a £4 pair of decathlon running gloves as the under layer.

Feet - bootwarmers.

Everyone is different, you'll probably find one part of you suffers before anything else (for me my feet go 10 degrees before anything else). Cover your options on day one, take a rucksack, by day two you'll know what suits you!

After all it is free

I've skiied in -20C in a merino wool base layer, microfibre mid layer fleece, and hard shell jacket. But I run hot. Anyway, a few layers is they key.

Balaclava is a must. We have some like this which are fine https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_4/255-8356991-9689148?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=balaclava&sprefix=Bala%2Caps%2C195&crid=2F8O6UP3XKW4U&tag=amz07b-21. But your breath will cause it to freeze solid around the mouth. Two could be a good idea to change at lunch. There are more advanced ones with neoprene and holes at the hose and mouth, which may be worth investing in. I saw tons of people though with just a buff or even nothing. But I don't think that is advisable, especially if there is some wind.

Wind of even 4-6 m/s can make it feel like -30C http://en.vedur.is/weather/articles/nr/1827.

Don't forget to try the throwing boiling water outside trick Smile

About 20 yrs ago in les deux alpes at easter it got to -23 c and my old hard contact lens appeared to get frozen to my eyeball .

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To be honest -20c in "good" weather, clear skies, little wind is no issue at all. -20c with a 30km/hr wind and blowing snow is a different issue altogether. In good weather you can ski normally with just an extra layer of clothes, in bad weather if anything goes wrong you can die. If the weather closes in and you are not comfortable in the conditions get off the hill.

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Thanks once again for all your replies - very useful. Its just 2 adult beginners skiers who will be in ski school. No little ones to worry about. We have reasonably good base layer, then fleece and ski jacket, with base layer and lined salopettes on the bottom. Good gloves. Last year we were fine in this, Think we will add balaclava under our helmet and silk glove liners, and maybe bring some extra layers just incase.

Very good points thanks @Valais2 and @JimiHendrix re taking a rucksack on the first day and going from there.

snow reports

@snome, OH feels the cold. We skied in -20 something in Killington during a week long ice storm. You don't feel it when you are skiing but it can get a touch nippy when you are sat on an exposed lift. She found that putting an oversized pair of mitts on top of her gloves on the lifts made a big difference. The lifties used to round around shouting 'no exposed flesh' which seems sensible.

Most adults can prepare themselves but the kids find it a lot harder and often don't realise they are in trouble until they are freezing. My nephew, who is totally gung-ho, was dropping off the back in -20 a few years ago when he was about 8 and he was pretty close to getting hypothermia. The biggest issue was his hands and after a warm up, hot chocolate and a new pair of very good quality gloves he was fine.

You know it makes sense.

Good point, I'd be very careful with kids. t-bag hand warmers do work and are very popular & cheap.

Also watch out for frozen toes - once they are gone you don't feel them, so it's important if they're feeling cold at all that you waggle them about until they're warm again. Walking can help (as opposed to skiing/ boarding). Don't over tighten them also.

I just use a Dakine neck gaiter for the face - you can pull them up or down as needed. Expect nostril hair to freeze.

Wind chill is on top of whatever it is - you don't want to be in the wind much if you can help it. Riding fast has the same effect and can feel cold - I shield my [covered] face with my hands when that's an issue, or slow down a bit.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@valais2 et al,

Spot on, couldn't agree more. So glad that stuff like this is getting posted, rather than 'why are you going out in this?' or something equally unhelpful. Understanding the risks and the environment are key. Better in my view to carry bits of kit (within reason) and not need them, than to be a liability on the hill.

Key things from me:

Spare gloves - you're useless without your hands.
No cotton.
'Be bold, start cold'. If you know you're going to get sweaty, de-layer. Better to be cold and warm up though activity than start warm, sweat, then freeze.
I know you're with a ski school, but in the future I suggest a bivvy bag or storm shelter. They pack small and if it goes turbo-wrong later you can be snug and warm when waiting for help.

It's like reefing sails; the first instance you think 'maybe I should take a reef in', do it. Same with getting off the hill if someone's too cold.

A snowHead

"Tea bags" for hand and feet, see the other thread on this subject

A snowHead

Why no cotton? Having skied 30 years with a cotton t shirt as a first layer, I tried a "proper" base layer this week in Canada where its been -10 / -20 all week, can't say I've noticed any difference at all in warmth or comfort.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@snome, -20 last week when I was there and wore a thin base layer and a big jacket. I'm a fat bloke so didn't feel cold other than fingers and toes. Toes probably because boots were a bit tight and restricting blood flow, fingers because I kept falling in the soft stuff and had wet gloves. Both cured with a short hut stop and a jagertee Very Happy

Windchill is a different matter, the only time I'm on the mountain and feel genuinely cold is usually when it's really windy.

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Because cotton does not wick. When it gets wet, eg from sweating, it stays wet.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Because cotton does not wick. When it gets wet, eg from sweating, it stays wet.

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tangowaggon, have you not heard the expression 'cotton kills' for the reasons ulmerhutte, posted. Sucks the heat from your body, literally.

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.

Double post Sad

After all it is free

I never let myself get wet from sweating, my jacket vents or the whole jacket gets unzipped as soon as I feel hot enough to start sweating. I really hate the feeling of being wet with sweat.

@ulmerhutte, it indeed stays wet, and stays cold.

Wool on the other hand actually gives out heat when it gets wet.

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@snowdave, apparently, as the fibres absorb water, there's a little exothermic reaction.

snow reports

@under a new name, hmm quite a lot of discussion about this at times and I still don't know whether the exothermic thing is true or not. What is true is the transport of moisture issue and at what level in the structure the evaporation takes place. I use a lot of highly breathable non waterproof gear at altitude, and the principle is getting the water away from body as quickly as possible, and have it evaporate at a high mechanical level in the clothing structure. Deep pile fleece is very good for this - think rab, montane and Patagonia - and this can function quite a bit better than gore tex shell with layering beneath, in my view. Paramo base all their clothing on this principle of rapid transportation away from the skin. Wool tends to work in the same way, pulling the moisture away from the skin, with the evaporation then occurring on the outer surface, away from the skin. Sure the same amount of energy is consumed in evaporation - 2260 joules per gram at 100 deg c - but the process is occurring at a point where's there's little thermal bridging with the body, due to the structure of the wool - hence the body is not robbed of heat. cotton just wets out completely, so forms a thermal bridge between the evaporating layer and the body - so you get effing cold. Variants of boiled wool were used a lot in the alps in the 30s-50s dachstein mitts were a great staple in fact.

@valais2, I am pretty convinced my Pradagonia H2No shell breathes better than my old Goretex Pro one. But it's a lighter construction although it doesn't seem to perform less well in any sense.

The most important thing of course, is colour.

You know it makes sense.

@under a new name, indeed it is (re colour).

Best bit of Patagonia kit in the known universe = Speed Ascent jacket, vers2 with the welded seams. Breathes brilliantly, deep pile, lightweight, great for climbing as well as skiing.
Naturally, with this great design success, they immediately stopped making it. Duh.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The most important thing of course, is colour.

Very true, I always choose light colours that reflect the heat of the sun, though for the past 10days in Canada, black would have been a good colour as it hasn't been above -10'c Shocked

A snowHead

A snowHead

I assume because with one pair you can trap a bit more air in your boot, but I could be wrongbit like mitts being warmer than gloves.

I have skied in -21, I just put on an extra short sleeve base layer from when it was -10 the day before, and pulled my snoody thing up so it met my goggles. No problem at all.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Compressing the feet leads to restricted blood flow and potential cold related problems. Ski boot liners have plenty of insulation, having tightly compressed socks does little to trap air which is how the insulation effect keeps you warm but the detrimental effect is pretty marked. If your boots are big enough that you can wear two pairs of socks without doing this then you have other issues Laughing

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@mountainaddict,

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Skied in -20C last week in Austria and it was cold but all I did was layer up as normal and took an extra body duck lined fleece, no inner gloves required (restricts flow imo) no extra thick socks just wore normal plus the above sleeveless body warmer. Main thing for me is a big breakfast so I'm fuelled up properly. So...

merino 3/4 leggings, goretex shell over, Falke sk4 socks, merino t-shirt s/s, merino long sleeve, merino mid layer high neck long sleeve, down body warmer, goretex shell jacket, merino neck tube, Hestra Army gloves. Works well.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Think @valais2, wrote the definitive post above but I'd second what @TangoBravo, said about taking action quickly if someone is getting cold - its much harder to rewarm when you get very chilled.
In those conditions I'd always want a dry pair of gloves in the group - if you've used all your spare pairs and someone takes a fall in powder and gets snow in their gloves then they might need to go in.
Personally I've found buffs to be adequate without the need for balaclavas when wearing helmet and goggles. I have a method of wearing one that covers all the bare skin but makes it easier to pull it of my face when I warm up.

What someone said about -20 being fine when it is still and sunny is true but remember afternoon shade and skiing-generated wind chill. The coldest I have ever been skiing was on a bluebird day in January in Courchevel when it was about -20. I was working, we skied to last lift and needed to get back to 1850 ASAP - basically went straight down creux and then onto the blue above the altiport which involves a lot of shussing - little activity and lots of wind chill. The sun was over the hill and we were in the shade. By the time I got back to my room I was so cold I got under the duvet with all my gear on including ski boots to warm up

After all it is free

I gave up on membrane gloves a while ago and ski in the Mountain Equipment Randonee glove. Designed mainly for winter climbing they are approx £55, have a goatskin palm and fingers, Schoeller softshell and a pile lining. This means that you can get them wet, wring them out and within 5 - 10 minutes they will be warm and drying out on your hand. Saying that I've found that they stay much dryer than membrane gloves as the breathability is much superior.

I skied the other week in almost -20C and just needed a thin base layer vest, a Helly Hansen long sleeve base top and an uninsulated softshell jacket on top, LJs and ski pants on the bottom and a thick buff round the neck. If you usually run hot when exercising it is surprising how little clothing you need once you protect yourself from the wind.

I still carry a packable synthetic duvet jacket in my pack though just in case.

I've done -35, and personally the things that suffer are extremities. It is fairly easy to increase layers on your body (if your jacket is big enough!) but two or three layers of thin thermals will keep you plenty warm enough on chest and legs, but ultimately if your hands and feet are getting cold it becomes miserable pretty quickly.

To fix that, decent gloves make a big difference. Decathlon are currently selling some very warm mitts for £10, which if you add a thin liner underneath will be more than warm enough for pretty much anything a ski resort will throw at you. https://www.decathlon.co.uk/slide-300-adult-ski-mittens-id_8371093.html?gclid=CLqyt_aAydECFeMp0wodJPsAIg#

Liners: https://www.decathlon.co.uk/forclaz-50-silk-adult-black-id_8344461.html

Finally feet will get cold. I don't really get cold feet and at -10 last week my big toe was getting cold enough it felt wet (which it wasn't) and it does take the edge off an otherwise nice day on the hill, so worth having a pair of boot gloves. They make a significant difference to warmth over a long day, and much less to go wrong than boot heaters, more durable, and easy to use. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Alpenheat-Boot-Cover-size-43-50/dp/B00ANODJ2O/ref=cts_sp_2_vtp?pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_p=1069525627&pf_rd_r=FS9H12DFQQ7H8KF34JE3&pd_rd_wg=y55AW&pf_rd_s=desktop-detail-softlines&pf_rd_t=40701&pd_rd_i=B00ANODJ2O&pd_rd_w=Kdm3F&pf_rd_i=desktop-detail-softlines&pd_rd_r=FS9H12DFQQ7H8KF34JE3&_encoding=UTF8&tag=amz07b-21

Final thing is your face. Airhole masks are the best option out there for me, they are very warm, and don't get wet like many other masks do because the airhole allows condensation to escape without affecting warmth. Alternatively get the scissors out on a cheap neck warmer, you only need a 2" wide slit for it to do the job just fine. Decathlon also good for neck warmers, here is the airhole so you can see what I mean http://www.theboardbasement.com/airhole-airtube-drylite-facemask-2017.html?src=fm&currency=GBP&gclid=CLfo1PKCydECFfcK0wod9w4Ccg#var1=Marine&var2=M/L - note I find that thick fleece neck warmers are good for avoiding snow or cold air getting down your neck, but are not good as face masks, only thin material is usually required to cover your face between goggles and neck, I tend to ski with a thin one under a thick one, then I can pull the thin one up over my face if it gets arctic.

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. . looks like Austria is warming up a little - I'm also out there next week. The normal rules apply - protect your extremities first - head/hands/feet

Bought a Patagonia Nano puff based on the weather reports to supplement / replace my normal microfleece midlayer . . .have been wearing it in the uk this week with a tshirt and its toasty . . .totally agree re Airhole products - the best face gear out there and you can still vape / smoke!

Help!!

Clothing for -20

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