Hi,
Skiing holiday booked - yeah; looking at last years video - Still stuck in the snow plough rut.
I have attached a couple of video clips - first one is from 2012 and I think I've improved from this (please say yes!!)
When I first look at the second video (apart from skiing like I've a broom stuck somewhere uncomfortable - according to my kids!!) I thought the turns were OK, but when I look more closely a lot of them are really small snow ploughs. I have been skiing like this for years and don't seem to be able to shake it. It really comes out on steeper slopes and when the terrain is heavy or lumpy I get into trouble, because that subtle twist trips me up.
I'd be grateful for any thoughts/advice
thanks
Thumbs up for working on your technique!
The most striking difference is that you're leaning forwards much more now, the bottom video looks much more controlled.
Here's the idea. You lean on the outside leg to start the turn. For parallel turns, the inside leg has to shift a little to stay parallel. The tighter the turns (e.g. on steep terrain), the more resistance you have against the snow and the harder it is to shift.
The solution is to put less weight on the inside ski when you turn. The problem is when you initiate the turn, you can't put all your weight on the outside ski immediately. Imagine starting a turn from standstill. It is hardly possible to lean on your outside ski until you have a little speed and are facing straight downhill.
So how else can you put less weight on the inside ski, without putting more weight on the outside ski?
Imagine a jumping motion. Before the turn, you crouch (keep leaning forward!), then when you initiate the turn, you stand up quickly (jump). The resistance on your skis is now minimal, so you can easily shift both your skis. When you come back down ('land'), all your weight is on the outside ski. Pole planting on the inside of the turn can help, because the pole naturally forces your body upwards. The steeper the terrain, the more you exaggerate the jump. This is why, when you look at extreme skiers going off 50 degree slopes, they are literally using jump turns. Following the natural curve of the ski (20m radius or so) would be suicide to them.
Looking at your videos, you are going up and down in some turns, but not in others. That's why it looks like you're 'riding' a broom!
If you're looking for practice, I'd suggest heading to some slightly steeper slopes. Going steeper, you'll have to exaggerate your V, and the difference between V and parallel will be much more noticeable.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
what @Jodiug, says, although some teaching now seems to be moving away from unweighting the skis to initiate the turn, i've always found this a very helpful tip. A steeper slope will help, carrying a little more speed will help a lot. Stand up and forwards to initiate the turn and you will be able to get your weight onto your outside ski nice and early. The steeper terrain will also need you to roll onto your edges more which will also help control your speed and direction. More speed is a good thing, as long as you can stay in control, it will make the whole job much easier, just keep the feeling of your shins pushed against the front of your boots. Good luck
Here are some of my rambling thoughts, that may (or may not) be helpful:
- Make sure your stance doesn't get too narrow, as it negatively effects balance and can block the downhill ski from edging.
- Don't get hung up on dropping the plough...as you pick up speed, let the plough gradually get narrower and narrower and it should gradually disappear as you speed up.
- Check out videos by Darren Turner
- The slower you go and the flatter the slope, allow enough time for the ski to flatten and get into the fall line, otherwise it will trip you up.
- Check out the "Garland" exercise, where you turn at various angles to the slope, simply by rolling your knees.
- Another thing worth trying on a gentle slope, is "Pedaling". ie. Get into a rhythm, where you press down through the arch of your right foot (to go left), then before you turn too far up the hill, press through the arch of your left foot.
As you alternate the pressing of each foot, it feels like you are pedaling a bicycle....keep centered over your skis (feet not too close), gentle shin pressure on the front of your boots and arms widish and forward.
You can do shorter turns while facing down the hill, or allow your body to follow your skis on a longer one.
It's quite possible that my ideas are a little out of date, but it's stuff that helped me.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 2-01-17 21:32; edited 5 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
please ignore the advice above about "jumping up" prior to making a turn, that technique is now many years old and was used with straighter and longer skis without the side cut that is on a modern ski.
However the premise that you need more weight on your outer ski is correct, but don't go steeper and faster! If you can do this slower and on less steep runs it will mean your technique is much better. The basic premise is that you need to stand on your new outer ski earlier and earlier in your turns.
You don't need to "jump up" to stand on your new outside ski more, it's just you need to train yourself to do it and practise a lot!
It's a common theme and something I had to overcome in my ski development.
I'd honestly say a day or half a day with a good instructor early on in your holiday will reap rewards. They should give you some drills/things to practise during the rest of your holiday. Where are you going on holiday as perhaps the good folk on here can recommend an instructor.
Take a look at this and the other in the 3.x series
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
kitenski wrote:
please ignore the advice above about "jumping up" prior to making a turn, that technique is now many years old and was used with straighter and longer skis without the side cut that is on a modern ski.
I never skied on old-school skis. I guess you are talking about carving? The guy in the video is doing long turns on a very gentle slope. Can we agree that there are multiple ways to do a turn:
- A long turn, using only the side cut of your ski, never shifting over the snow
- A short turn, using up/down motions and shifting over the snow
- Anything in between
This is what ski teachers teach today. Adjust your skiing to the slope and the turn that you want. Not: long turns are good and short turns are bad. Sometimes when it's steep or narrow, you're going to need short turns. Jumping isn't really necessary in most cases, it's simply a way of explaining the movements.
Am I missing something here? It sounds like you use a different technique and if so I'd like to know what it is
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Jodiug, no sorry, there is no "jumping" up or up/down motion in either short or long turns. Both simply involve weighting the outside ski!
I had to "unlearn" up/down motion hence I'm a bit passionate about it
No "modern" ski teacher will teach up/down motion unless they are teaching jump turns! Sure your legs will need to move and compress/straighten, but the modern view is the upper body stays still, imagine your head is below a glass ceiling and it cannot go up at all or else the ceiling will shatter.
You can stand in front of a mirror at home and keeping your upper body and head still, stand on your left leg and lift your right, then stand on your right and lift your left. You can do this without any up/down movement of your head.
This is me doing short turns with a still(ish) upper body and head.
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Thanks Everyone,
I must admit that people, including instructors, have told me that I need to stand up tall to initiate a turn; but more recently I got the impression that I should not do that and rather initiate the turn by taking pressure off my inside ski combined with rolling that knee down the hill. This is what I have been aiming for - however, it seems looking at my videos, that I still push the old outside ski into a small snow plough to start the turn.
I am reluctant to go steeper, as it always causes me to use an even bigger snow plough and get anxious. I am comfortable with speed as long as the gradient is not too steep.
Once I get the rhythm going the alternating pressure thing does seem to work for me on slopes that are not too steep,
When I tripped up in the second video I was clearly doing exactly what old FB said I should not! Not allowing enough time for the ski to flatten - I think this was because I wanted to get round quickly - how do I do this?
I have seen the Darren Turner videos before, but it was helpful to look at the specific one kitenski mentioned; the difference seems to be that I am pushing my heel out into a snow plough, where as he starts in the snow plough position - I presume that does not make much difference though.
The video from kitenski is great - I have this crazy vision that I might do that one day
We are off to Trysil in Norway in early March.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
This video clip from Darren Turner using the Clutch/Accelerator analogy, is very similar to the Pedaling idea which I talked about:
@Jodiug, no sorry, there is no "jumping" up or up/down motion in either short or long turns. Both simply involve weighting the outside ski!
+1
If your extension movement at the start of the turn is too fast it takes you away from the snow, so the ski does not make a solid connection with the snow, reducing grip, reducing pressure, reducing performance. In limited circumstances (e.g. jump turns, when you have to quickly and easily twist the ski to cope with very steep terrain) that "popping up" movement might be helpful, but in the vast majority of cases it isn't.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Nip 'n' Tuck wrote:
... but when I look more closely a lot of them are really small snow ploughs.
At the start of most of your turns you push the outside ski sideways before you stand/balance on it. It's only a slight and momentary push, but it's there quite consistently. Remove the sideways push, simply stand on the new outside ski as you start the turn and the plough/stem will disappear.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Is it that easy?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
nigelg wrote:
+1 for the videos by Darren Turner
^^ what he said. If you haven't watched them then well worth it, even for the videos that are more advanced than your current level. I've got a huge amount of time for the simple way that he explains and demonstrates things and it really helped my skiing to follow some of his ideas.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Nip 'n' Tuck wrote:
Is it that easy?
To remove a stem? Yes, if you focus on what you are doing. It's not a complicated problem, and the solution should be simple. A couple of drills might help; an explanation so the skier understands the problem; you can play around with the timing of your movements; beyond that it's just practice doing the right thing until the movement pattern becomes habitual.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Nip 'n' Tuck wrote:
Is it that easy?
Yes! It's very easy to over complicate skiing.
Find a nice flat green, start off parallel pointing down hill and simply stand on your right hand ski with a little bit of your right foot big toe edge engaged and be patient! You should turn left. Be patient, don't rush anything and see what happens.
If that doesn't work you could try lifting the tail of your left hand ski but keep the tip on the snow.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Right. Ok. I'm determined to crack this.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Nip 'n' Tuck wrote:
Right. Ok. I'm determined to crack this.
You will crack it in Norway....that is my prediction.....and I'm usually right....just ask Lady Fartbag
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 2-01-17 23:07; edited 1 time in total
I'm sure the experts will tell me how wrong it is, but being taught how to pole plant properly helped me to get past that stage. You stop thinking about what your skis are doing or about lifting the tail, focus on the pole plant and all the other bits happen by some sort of magic.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Nip 'n' Tuck, your pole planting in the second video was absent, and a little haphazard in the first video. The pole plant can help a lot with coordination and timing of all the movements that you make at the end of one turn, through the transition and at the start of the next turn, including whether you push the outside ski sideways or simply stand on it.
Make sure you pole plant for every turn. When it is working consistently as a drill say this, out loud or in your head: "tap, stand". Use the 'tap' of the pole plant to trigger a smooth extension movement of your legs as you stand and balance mostly on the new outside ski at the start of the turn. Repeat on every turn: "tap, stand". It should help coordinate all your movements, make sure they are not rushed and provided you focus on the "stand" rather than "push" the stem will disappear.
I'm sure the experts will tell me how wrong it is, but being taught how to pole plant properly helped me to get past that stage. You stop thinking about what your skis are doing or about lifting the tail, focus on the pole plant and all the other bits happen by some sort of magic.
Ha, cross posted! Nope, you're absolutely right.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks for the encouragement. Interestingly I deliberately stopped trying to pole plant after watching the Ski School Intermediate app where he seems to use the poles just to balance. However, I like the simplicity of 'tap' and 'stand' and this will be my mantra in Norway. Hopefully I can post a new video sans stem!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Nip'n'Tuck get a lesson or two. It is worth about 4000 hours of watching videos on YouTube. I guess tap and stand depends on your general style, but probably contributed to progress for me without my knowing it. A decent instructor will quickly give you pole drills to break the bad habits.
Once you get it, it is not difficult.
@rob@rar, re cross post...Does that make me an expert now
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@kitenski thanks for the clarification! This just shows there's always a next level. Since it's the same topic, I might as well post something of mine. Do you mind?
I don't have a clean video of many linked short turns. I do have this one, with medium turns and no pole usage (I am the first skier):
I do follow the natural bend rather than skidding, but slow it down to 0.5 and you can clearly see the extension/compression at work. Should I roll my knees over to the other side instead of extending? Does that mean your legs are never in a stretched position? I'll try and make a better video next week.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Jodiug, I think if you replaced your 'jump' with @rob@rar's 'stand' you'd be on the same page. You do want to extend your legs, but you should be keeping your skis in contact with the snow. The extension isn't necessarily vertical either...
@kitenski, nice turns! Grippy and dynamic.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Jodiug wrote:
Should I roll my knees over to the other side instead of extending? Does that mean your legs are never in a stretched position? I'll try and make a better video next week.
Yes, but I'd suggest doing both...roll the edges over at transition so that extension of the new outside leg directs you forward and into the turn instead of straight up. Even though it looks like the knees do the rolling, try to initiate from the feet and let the legs follow.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Jodiug, perhaps start a new thread, especially if you can post new video
J turn drills would be good for you I'd suggest.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
NipNTuck where are you going skiing
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Trysil - Norway
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
me too.....have you been before
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Yes a few times. We really like it. Generally very quiet with decent snow. There's a new fast chair this year - so no T-bars -
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
Still stuck in the snow plough rut.
