Poor left turn, OK right

A snowHead

Hi guys, bit of background, 40yrs old, snowboarded but started skiing this year. I've done 40-50 hours over the last few months indoors at CFe with about half of those under instruction. Ready for some real snow in the next few weeks.

So I feel my skiiing has come on a long way but I'm having some trouble getting my left turn really grippy. I seem to loose control of the right hand (downhill) ski, quite often it feel like it slips away and I realise I'm putting weight on my left ski. I know my left leg is stronger and subconsciously is giving support to the right.

It is getting better but I thought I'd ask has anybody had this before and has any suggestions on drills I could do or techniques to get my turns more even?

Thanks, RobJ.

A snowHead

Lift your inside / uphill ski as you turn so you get the feeling of the weight transfering from one ski to the other as you turn each way.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@RoboJ, ...probably quite a few things may be going wrong here - it's a very common early problem. The way in which you resolve it needs to be handled really carefully or it will set really bad habits which will take AGES to get rid of.

Firstly I am going to argue strongly against lifting your inside ski. VERY bad habit. It will get you turning on your right ski but the other underlying problems need to be addressed - and that means very different exercises and remediation.

It is likely you are leaning back. This hooks the rear of the inside ski onto the snow and transfers weight away from the lower (turning) ski. BAD HABIT. Simply putting your weight a lot more forward many solve the problem. Practice by standing on a flat piece of ground and lean straight, as far as you can, not bending at the waist but bending at the ankle, flexing your knees a little, and putting as much pressure as you can on the balls of your feet. It's amazing how far you can lean. Trust that forward lean.

Secondly, you most probably are not separating the movement of your legs and your upper body. Get your shoulders facing into the valley, and face that way all the time when you turn. Your legs should feel separate from your upper body and turn this way and that as you keep your chest open and facing down the slope. Open your arms out so that they form an O in front of you at nipple height (!) with your hands the same distance apart as your hips. Then rotate all your upper body so that you are facing down the slope. Keep facing down the slope whichever way your legs and skis are going. This is slightly old-fashioned now for 'standard skiing' but you can lessen the 'facing down the hill' once you have mastered it. Facing down the hill, whilst bending your knees into the slope, automatically unweights the inside ski without lifting it, and that's what you want.

Finally, a great exercise. Go onto a blue, start side-slipping. Then bring both skis around quite slowly but keep on sliding them round - all this happens slipping in a straight line down the slope - as your skis run straight to the fall line you will pick up speed but 'don't panic' lean forward and keep in bringing them round whilst slipping down the slope. You will be able to bring them right round so that they are 180 round now, and side slipping again. Repeat back the other way - always slipping in a really straight line down the slope. This is the basis of excellent technique.

Like this but a bit more slowly...

http://youtube.com/v/TeB3pC4Qc2Y

And never drag your poles on the snow - this makes you lean back far more than you might think. BAD HABIT - stop it.

Anyway give these a go...

You need to Login to know who's really who.

I have the same problem. Reading valaise2's comments was like listening to many instructions I have been given in the past. Absolutely spot on. They work. Including the bad habits - to be ditched. That's the good news.
Bad news for me is that I have to concentrate on my weak leg whenever snow is less than perfect and when the going gets tough it wimps out completely. I know that will happen so am at least alerted to the fact I need to try to stop it.
Finally, one really good tip from an instructor concerned timing. I always rushed the turn on the weak leg. To stop that I was advised to think of a calmish 3 syllable word accompanied by a stomach crunch during the turn (syllables coincide with the 3 parts of the turn) and do that on strong leg. Then do it on weak leg making yourself take the same amount of time. Harder than you might think. But surprisingly effective after a while.
Good luck.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

@RoboJ, hi! Ive had this since i started, my weak side turned out to be an arthritic hip which luckily, post op, doesnt prevent me skiing!!

Having improved through lessons (see advice above) and practice, i still get it when im tired, particular on flat sections where i cant load an edge. Also lots of gym work to condition the weak side helps.

Hope you have a god trip to the mountains

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I see lots of lots of people who are slightly stronger turning on one side than the other side, myself included.

After all it is free

Get someone to video you and post the result. We're shooting in the dark here.

@gorilla, ...indeed...meant to say in my first post that it's hard to tell without seeing first, of course ...

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Check yourself and then have someone else check if your legs and knees are really in line all the way through all turns and other related movements, and if your feet are both equally balanced and positioned in terms of your biomechanics. Chances are that there's an issue there (most people have one to some degree, whether it's a floppy or stiff knee, stiffer or looser hip or back, etc, etc).
I have one foot which pronates (flat arch) a lot more than the other and this causes one knee to be well misaligned witout correction from footbed insoles. Probably one hip too, certainly overall one leg in stretcing/yoga terms, is also much more flexible than the other. One side of back hurts too, sometimes. All affects stance/skiing, particularly turns.
Look up Warren Smith (written, not vid) on the Net.
Don't know if you have your own boots, but would recommend getting insoles if you can (if they would help, of course) - maybe your own boots if you can (properly fitted).

Just a thought - if you're a boarder, do you ride switch or always pointing one way? Are you goofy or regular? Wondering if your body and/or brain have just developed a weak and not weak side or been conditioned to certain types of movement and balance (can only suggest thinking about how you make turns/movements when you board - if you can - and then think how it might affect how you ski).

Caveat - am a peasant, not an Instructor.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Wow, guys - thanks for the replies. I do have video, will see if I can get it uploaded pre-trip.

In response to some of the replies, it's entirely possible my body position is poor, especially leaning backwards. I'm a nervous skier and leaning forward has taken me a while to get used to and I think I lean back if feeling things getting hairy. It's also something I do as I get tired and I have to concentrate like a Jedi to get my posture correct.

Interestingly as rob@rar suggested it was mentioned I lean in to turns quite a lot and this could be the source of some of my challenge.

I've been doing some garlands and falling leaf indoors so have been getting used the idea of side slipping and I'll try the exercises suggested on real snow.

Thanks for all you help guys, I appreciate there's nothing like having a few lessons too so I'l be investing in those while I'm away too.

snow reports

Thanks Grizzler, didn't see your reply until after I had just posted mine and it has some interesting points.

I have my own boots fitted at Snow & Rock so reasonable fit. I have regular insoles to remove heel lift but nothing orthopaedic as such. However I do occasionally get pain after skiing in my right knee, usually passes quickly but you have made me wonder if it's a symptom of something else. I'll take a look at Warren Smith's site.

I know for a fact my right leg is simply weaker which I'm guessing is through me being right side dominant, probably not through boarding as I wouldn't have thought I did enough! I do exercise a lot and when I'm doing something like lunges I can tell one leg getting tired before the other. Gym work is helping get that balanced though.

Again, thanks for all the help chaps. I know as a novice skier an awful lot of this will just be poor form, it will get better with practice and proper instruction and becoming a competent skier takes time and effort.

R

You know it makes sense.

@RoboJ, The Dolomites would suit you.

Do the Sella Ronda clockwise only - it's all right turns!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@rob@rar,

Robrar good take ... and I know from your posts that you are very experienced in diagnosing problems. Sounds like you were right re the crossover from snowboarding re leaning into the turn.

But here's a thought - the reason I emphasised bracquage was that there is some interesting findings from neuroscience which may change some of the ways we think about 'drill' - ref 'lifting the inside leg to get forward pressure on the inner edge of the downhill ski'. While drill can undoubtedly help, there is a suggestion that drills should focus and consolidate the behaviour which we want to become automatic. If we use drill which causes us to acquire something which we don't want consolidated in our technique then it's a bad idea to do it.

Here's an example: the first time I write the word 'archaeology' I spell it wrongly (eg 'archieology'). Modern neuroscience suggests that we then lay down a primary memory for the association of the word, concept and spelling. This primary memory will include the mispelling. And it is really persistent - when we think of the idea - we access immediately the mispelling. We can then learn the correct spelling, but the PRIMARY memory is of the incorrect spelling, which is the one which we will first access when we think of the idea. We then think - 'that's wrong' - and correct it with the secondary memory, each time. But it's a secondary memory accessed from the first, faulty memory. This is an explanation for why misspellings are so persistent into later life.

This theory and evidence transfers to physical activity, particularly when we want to make something automatic. If we do something right (eg weight the front of the downhill ski) by introducing practice of consistently doing something wrong for a period of time (lifting the inner ski off the ground) - then this can get fixed in our technique - and fast. To use this drill we must remember 'I must lift my leg' - this becomes embedded really quickly - and then when we want to get rid of it we need to consciously think 'I must put my leg down'. Going into a turn then is contaminated by the behaviour which we learned as a drill, which has to be unlearned - which actually is rather difficult, it can all too easily become a primary memory of the activity - in this case turning. I have experienced this a lot with skiers - bad habits which they have picked up trying to resolve a problem. It sometimes is a solution to the specific problem, but it embeds a behaviour which becomes a problem itself. The point about bracquage as a drill is that is does the job - very balanced position, good weighting of the respective skis - without introducing elements which have to be unlearned.

This kind of evidence is becoming important for diagnosing problems and devising training programmes and I think may substantially change the way we approach things.

A snowHead

@valais2, that's an interesting idea, but I have to say that I've never seen anyone have problems with "dropping the drill" when going from a 1-ski drill back to skiing normally. I've never seen a 1-ski drill get fixed in to a movement pattern, especially if the focus is, as it should be, balancing on the outside ski. If skiers are having problem because they move too far or too fast to the inside of the turn they rely on having the inside ski to help them stay upright. Quickest way to break the reliance on that inside ski is to take it away...

A snowHead

I used to have the same issue in reverse...right turns on left ski were a bit out of control. Instructor took my right ski and made me do about a gazillion short radius and carved turns on my left ski. I have no idea if this is a good idea but it gave me confidence in my 'weak' leg.

I fell over a lot for the first hour or two.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@rob@rar, ..that's interesting - I think what you are saying is important - ie taking the ski away - since I too haven't found a problem when doing '1 ski', but I have when using the 'lifting the ski up' - (which is what was suggested near the top of this thread) - in a couple of people it got really fixed really quickly, and they always lifted the 'drill' leg for ages afterwards. I had to almost beat them to death with a pole to get them to stop....

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@rob@rar,

You'll need to Register first of course.

It's important to distinguish between what is a drill, often an artificial exercise done to emphasise a particular part of technique and a cue or similar, something to remember as you are skiing so you get the technique right.

I'm not an instructor, but I've had plenty of instruction over the years and I know that something's work for me, some don't and different things work for different people.

So yes doing a drill where you lift or unweight the uphill ski will help some people and it might cause others to develop a bad habit, although I rarely see people not doing drills skiing on one ski.

In terms of cues
For getting your weight forward, I never think lean forwards, I think can I feel the front of my boot against my shins
For hand position I think hands in driving car position,
Pole planting I try to do by just cocking the wrist, rather than a full arm movement
Carving turns I like to think of my body being still (except for up and down movements) and my legs moving underneath me as you move from one edge of the skis to the other (that one is harder to rights down) and transferring the Majority of the weight from one leg to the other by pushing against the outer ski.

I probably get replies from instructors telling my why some or all of the above is wrong, but it works for me and that's the point, you find things that work for you. It's good to get a variety of tuition as some people's tips work for some and not others, and the really good instructors and the ones that can work out what tip or cue or drill will work with that individual to correct a fault or polish a particular skill or technique.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@t44tomo +1

In the past I've done the "hold your poles horizontally in front of you" drill, but I rarely find myself doing it out of habit...

@EarthWindandWater, But do you, perhaps now out of habit, hold your hands and poles in that kind of way and/or orientate or 'separate' your body in a similar way to if you held your poles out?
Not intending that there's a right or wrong answer here, but some 'drills' (I'm speaking more from experience in other disciplines, not as a ski instructor - but I assume the same desired outcomes when learning and practicing) are there to encourage you do do the 'right' thing in an absolute sense (i.e. learn and change to improve) and some to understand or get a certain feeling or insight, but are not intended to be the way that you will absolutely do it per se.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Hi all,

Am waiting for the transfer to the airport following what has been an excellent week in Bansko. Thought I'd update you on the progress as some feedback to all your advice.

Firstly as great as the lessons indoors at CFe were there's nothing like being able to turn for km's on end to really build muscle memory.

Anyway, so I found pretty quickly not leaning forward on left turns was the root cause. Whether it was out of fear of not getting round or something else it made the issue self-perpetuating. I was trying to get the tip to grip but as I was leaning back it felt like I was on tiptoes with no stability. On the other hand my right turn I had solid contact on the whole of my foot and shin pressure. So on some easy blue/greens I really focused on leaning forward, conscious of my arms being forward and looking for that feeling like you are really standing on the ski during the turn.

My skiing came on no end this week even happily getting down skied off reds towards the end of the day. I found much greater pleasure in developing control and precision than speed and didn't mind one bit I was often slower than others.

Thank you all for your help. RobJ.

Help!!

Poor left turn, OK right

snowHeads Forum Index >>> Bend ze Knees