I heard James Cove is writing the official history of BASI ?
Frith Finlayson (BASI member #1) must be turning in his whisky soaked grave at the very thought...
The following quote from his Planet Ski blog (later reposted by Natives) shows just how much Mr Cove has missed the entire point of Scottish skiing.
Quote:
Put bluntly the snow is not reliable, the access to it is poor, the image of Scottish skiing needs updating, the infrastructure can not compare to The Alps and it is simply not an attractive enough proposition for many UK skiers and snowboarders..... etc .... the basic problem is that the mountains are not high enough and the snow not good enough and there is very little that can be done about that.
Myself and other locals will be the first to admit that Scottish mountains have always been too low. For sure the weather and snow has always been unreliable. However that doesnt mean that Scotland cant still be a great place to ski when conditions do turn good. Since the very beginning skiing in Scotland has always been best appreciated by local skiers who can take advantage when conditions turn good. In Scotland alone there are 5 million people - which is plenty population to support 5 small ski resorts.
The simple fact is that comparing skiing in Scotland to the mega resorts of the Alps totally misses the point of being a 'real skier'. All over the world there are similar 'wee resorts' in places like New Zealand, southern Norway or east coast USA that suffer equally irregular snow fall. Just because these resorts dont depend on holiday makers jetting in for a weeks vacation doesnt mean they must be doomed or any less worthy.
A few hard facts for the various journalists who have toasted the decline of Scottish skiing in recent days
- 2009/10 had the best Scottish snow conditions for over 20 years
- 4 above average seasons (2008 - 2011) in a row.
- On average 200K skier days in Scotland every winter.
- The Scottish ski industry is still worth 30 million to the rural economy every year. (6 quid for every person living in Scotland).
- In recent years the reduced gulf stream and solar activity has made Scotland colder than average.
- Irregular snow fall in Scotland hasnt stopped Scottish resorts operating for 50+ consecutive years.
As Frith often said about skiing on snow in the UK - we thrive on adversity
If anyone actually bothered to read the entire 80 page independent review of Scottish skiing they would see it actually makes a very good, unbiased, case for future investment in Scottish snowsports.
Regards
Doug.
p.s From his blog I understand that James Cove has only ever skied once on real snow in the UK ?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 7-10-11 13:14; edited 5 times in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Frith Finlayson (BASI member #1)
I thought that was Derek Brightman?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Put bluntly the snow is not reliable, the access to it is poor, the image of Scottish skiing needs updating, the infrastructure can not compare to The Alps and it is simply not an attractive enough proposition for many UK skiers and snowboarders..... etc .... the basic problem is that the mountains are not high enough and the snow not good enough and there is very little that can be done about that.
Is there anything factually incorrect in that quote?
I read the paragraph that you quoted and to me it seems to say pretty much the same as what you say about the drawbacks of Scottish skiing. That doesn't mean that Scottish skiing should be looked down on, and I fervently hope that it isn't doomed. If I lived closer I would ski in Scotland as often as I could, but it's not a sensible proposition for me.
If I'm mistaken and there is something that James Cove wrote in that paragraph which wasn't true I'd be happy to be corrected...
So why write a smug article about how the alps are better ? And Scottish snowsports are doomed. That is not good journalism. Especially when the recently published review actually makes a good case for future investment in Scottish snowsports.
It always amuses me that the people who ski the least (or never) in Scotland are the biggest experts.
I really hope Mr Cove does a good job of his BASI book. However journalists writing articles that the mountains are too low for skiing, the roads always blocked, the snow conditions in permanent decline and the infrastructure not worthwhile doesnt help the local ski industry one bit. Just because you wouldn't visit Scotland for a weeks ski holiday from the south of England doesnt mean that Scottish skiing is a poor product.
Even less cool is circulating your 'Scottish Skiing is crap' story around the UK as a press release to web sites like natives.co.uk
I would have hoped for much better from someone who aspires to be the UKs premier ski journalist ? Especially when Scotland is ramping up for what will will hopefully be another good season.
Doug.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 7-10-11 13:07; edited 4 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Haggis_Trap, I have never claimed to be an expert about Scottish skiing - everything I know about it is at least 2nd hand. But I'd like to learn. So if there's anything in that paragraph you quoted which is factually incorrect I'd be interested in your corrections...
After all it is free
After all it is free
I'll have a go.
Quote - Put bluntly the snow is not reliable.
Fact - Even in a bad season there'll be lift served skiing available most days at Glencoe, Nevis and Cairngorm between late December & the end of March.
Quote - The access to it is poor
Fact - It's a hell of a lot easier to access than taking a taxi to an airport, a flight to Geneva or Innsbruck and a coach transfer or hire car to the middle of nowhere.
Quote - The image of Scottish skiing needs updating.
Fact - The image of Scottish skiing needs updating.
Quote - the infrastructure can not compare to The Alps
Fact - It's got ski lifts, ski hire shops & on-mountain facilities. What else do you really need for lift-served skiing ?
Quote - it is simply not an attractive enough proposition for many UK skiers and snowboarders
Fact - it simply is an attractive enough proposition for many UK skiers and snowboarders
Quote - the basic problem is that the mountains are not high enough
Fact - the mountains are high enough for skiing on snow.
Quote - the snow is not good enough and there is very little that can be done about that.
Fact - the snow is as the snow is. Sometimes it's lovely, sometimes, it's not so nice. If not so nice is bruising a skiers ego, then there's something they should be able to learn.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
moffatross, thanks, that's helpful. Just one further question from me: you say that even in a bad season there will be lift served skiing available most days, what does "most days" really mean? In a bad season how many days will there be no skiing available?
That's a genuine question from me, btw. I have no desire whatsoever to knock Scottish skiing.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Most resorts average between 80 and 120 days each winter. An average season would run from Xmas until late April with some days beings lost to high winds and storms. In that period conditions would vary - so people within 3 to 4 hours drive are usually the ones most able to profit. Sometimes the best snow is in Jan, sometimes its in April. That is why you might not want to book in advance.
In a good season, such as 2010, Cairngorm has offered 160+ days lift serviced (more than Courcheval managed).
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Fri 7-10-11 7:59; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Last year I managed to get 22 days on Scottish snow at 4 out of the 5 resorts. My eight year old daughter got 6 and my six year old son got 5 days. Which was not bad considering we ski on a dry slope every Saturday morning through the winter months. In other words pretty much every weekend.
Our annual pilgrimage to the alps was in the first week of April to Flaine. It was without doubt the worst snow we skied on last year.
Scottish ski centres are no different from any other resorts, when it's good, it's awsome, when its bad, the chances are it was still worth going.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Most resorts average between 80 and 120 days each winter. An average season would run from Xmas until late April with some days beings lost to high winds and storms. In that period conditions would typically vary lots.
In a good season, such as 2010, Cairngorm has offered 160+ days lift serviced (more than Courcheval managed).
Thanks.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Haggis_Trap, I know nothing about Scottish skiing, live in Northern England and have a mind to visit a few days should conditions resemble recent years. Where would you advise I visit to maximise the experience?
I have about twenty weeks skiing in Europe under my belt.
I have a memory of sitting with a mate and another skier on a chair lift in Sunny Andorra having a conversation about the best places we had skied and was slightly sceptical when the other skier said, Scotland. I challenged him and he was quite genuine about it. Said on a sunny day with good snow there was nowhere better!!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I hope Scottish skiing continues to succeed. I hope to make it up there next season. I have skied in Scotland before. I've met James Cove - he seems a decent, likeable bloke who is an enthusiastic skier, who writes well. Can't see anything wrong in his article - it doesn't come across to me as smug.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
As someone who learnt to ski in Scotland some facts:-
I spent a 2 week holiday staying in Kingussie, for 5 days there was no access to the slopes due to snow and high winds. When they did open the fresh snow had been blown away and we were back to the "firm base" ie. ice.
Of the 20 odd weekends that I travelled from Merseyside to the Scottish resorts having first called the info line on an Edinburgh number and getting the "fresh snow on a firm base" message I know that for sure I did not put skis on for 5 of theses weekends and another 5 when I got 1 or part of 1 day skiing. I do however remember 2 good days ie. sun and good snow, but the reason I remember them was because they where so rare!
To ski in Scotland you need to be within an hour of the slopes, because that is how long it takes for conditions to change dramatically!
Those are facts.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
rob@rar wrote:
Quote:
Put bluntly the snow is not reliable, the access to it is poor, the image of Scottish skiing needs updating, the infrastructure can not compare to The Alps and it is simply not an attractive enough proposition for many UK skiers and snowboarders..... etc .... the basic problem is that the mountains are not high enough and the snow not good enough and there is very little that can be done about that.
Is there anything factually incorrect in that quote?
I'd largely agree with it yet I love the place - spent one whole season on Cairngorm in the 80s and have been up fairly regularly ever since, three times last year and twice the season before. The one thing Cove doesn't mention, surprisingly, is the weather and that's probably the number one detraction (for softies). There are many positives though and he's totally failed to capture the intangibles like how a place feels (ie the Austrians have Gemütlichkeit) which suggests he's spent little or no time there.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
... live in Northern England and have a mind to visit a few days should conditions resemble recent years.
From Lancashire it would be very do-able for a weekend trip. Probably 4hrs drive each way ?
Watch the snow reports / web cams / weather forecast and head north on a friday night when conditions look good.
In simple terms - Glencoe and Nevis Range have the most challenging skiing.
Cairngorm and Glenshee have the most extensive skiing.
Quote:
James Cove - he seems a decent, likeable bloke who is an enthusiastic skier, who writes well.
I am sure he is.... His BASI book should be good.
Its just a shame he decided to publish a 'Scottish skiing is crap compared to the alps' press release AND circulated it around web sites such as natives.co.uk etc
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 7-10-11 9:20; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
... plus, you just cannot beat big slushy bumps in the spring sunshine.
Best days skiing I've ever had - Cairgorm
Worst days skiing I've ever had - Cairgorm
Just to far away for me now.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Haggis_Trap, What you should be happy about is that this thread will be seen by way more people than will ever see Mr Cove's press release on Planetski or Natives etc. Before t'Internet, his stuff would have appeared in print and there would have been stuff all you could do about it other than write a Mr Angry from Purley letter to the editor.
BASI themselves have made unwritten comment about Scottish skiing by decamping to Hintertux for the majority of courses. They need to be showing more faith in the product too.
Its just a shame he decided to publish a 'Scottish skiing is crap compared to the alps' press release AND circulated it around web sites such as natives.co.uk etc
From the perspective of a holidaymaker who books their week's skiing in advance I thought his article was pretty well balanced. To my reading he said pretty much the same as you've said in this thread, which is why I asked you whether anything he said was incorrect.
From the perspective of someone who lives close enough for day trips or weekend trips the downsides that week-long pre-bookers might suffer from are much less of an issue.
I think the majority of UK skiers fall in to the week-long pre-booker variety, so in that sense Cove's article was a pretty reasonable, IMO. Bode Swiller makes a good point about the intangible benefits and perhaps these weren't captured in the article. But that kind of stuff is difficult to capture in a short piece of web journalism, and is always going to be subjective (witness my dislike of Austrian apres-ski music ).
Haggis_Trap, I can't see what the problem is with a journalist publishing an article and then alerting other people to the fact, but are you sure he sent out a press release? It seems to me that anything which is less than full-throated propaganda in favour of Scottish skiing is unlikely to win your approval.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Who gives a Shite.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, it's ignorant personal prejudice dressed up as fact in a news article.
Quote:
With the Alps being so successful and being able to offer a lot more
That's even more sloppy than the stupid comments Doug quoted above. The Alps as some cohesive whole? It's just total claptrap based on tunnel vision around a few mega resorts favoured by many Brit tourists. The Alpine mega resort Disneyland approach is not the only model / approach to snowsports in this world, in fact it is the few mega well known resorts that are the freaks of the show. So many Brits that ski have an incredibly distorted view of what snowsports is all about for the majority of skiers around the world.
The majority of skiers do not book a weeks holiday abroad, skiing is something that is part of their life through winter and spring. Something that UK holiday skiers seem completely unable to grasp.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Haggis_Trap, Winterhighland, now I've read the article in full, I reckon you might have been quoting selectively from what James Cove is saying. For a start off the report itself says:
"This fall in demand is due to a number of factors: inconsistent snow conditions; less young people entering the sport; fewer schools taking part; more competition from cheap deals overseas; and an uncompetitive Scottish ski product with old equipment and outdated support facilities. The key issues however seem to be the unreliable weather patterns and competitive deals abroad offering a better skiing experience," said the report.
And Cove follows it with:
Now here at PlanetSKI we agree with much in the report but it is also well worth bearing in mind the skiing in Scotland can be unique and thoroughly enjoyable. You just need to take it as it is.
He's agreeing with the report so your issue should really be with the report. Few would disagree that you have to "take it as it is".
There is some very good bits in the report, the most positive thing from it being a recognition to the importance of the industry to sustaining year round employment in various fragile rural communities. There is however some nonsense in the report too, comments like there being only a few nights a year where snow could be made in Scotland for example that have no basis in fact whatsoever.
There is also a recurring fallacy that focussing skiing at the highest elevations would reduce weather dependency. Oops... you can see why someone from outside might conclude that due to the logical assumption that snow is more reliable higher up, but it does suggest that the lack of personal experience of the mountains and of an understanding of snowsports for the local / daytrip based market by the consultants involved needs to be borne in mind when evaluating the various proposals outlined in the report.
Various media outlets have jumped on the 2010 skier day numbers not being up to the late 80s numbers as a sign the industry is in trouble. Quite the contrary, the recent improving trend in skier days is in part a sign that the industry is finally recovering from the damage done in the late 80s, beginning of the 90s that lasted pretty much a generation.
The Skier Day figures for the end of the 80s were not a sign of some halcyon days, put the rose tinted specs away. The numbers were wholly unsustainable, coincided with just about the worst run of seasons we've had in 89, 90 and 92. The AVERAGE daily skier day figure for 89 was over 3600 on CairnGorm Mountain.... The mountain wasn't close to being able to cope with 17 lifts and 3 times the present catering capacity. That period did untold damage, creating the oft still quoted perception of no snow and huge queues. Since 2008 to a lesser extent and much more frequently in 2010 and 2011, I've found myself speaking to people on tows and lifts who've said this was the first year (or time) they'd skied in Scotland in 20years... rather underlines the point.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I was going to post this in the "one thing" thread but the single most memorable week of skiing I have had to date was a week staying at Loch Morlich YHA as a sixth former with a few mates. We got the train up, lucked out with a great instructor who knew just how to handle cocky 16/17 year olds and skied everywhere in the most terrible conditions learning heaps without even realising it.
Second best ever memorable run on a snowboard was dropping the cornice and getting a clear deep run down to Braveheart chair at Nevis.
Maybe Scottish skiing ought to be made a mandatory part of the BASI qualification?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Early 80's, I was bored one Friday at college (in Woolwich) so hitch-hiked, kind of accidentally, to Aviemore, spent Saturday skiing for free by doing 'casual labour' on a couple of lifts in return for a lift pass and hitched back to London on Sunday.
Couldn't have made it to Austria so easily - and they'd have charged me lots of Schillings for my lift pass too!
Two years in a row, I wouldn't have skied at all if it wasn't for the Cairngorm.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I skied 23 days last season, 12 days in France, 9 in Switzerland and 2 in Scotland. The most fun I had skiing was the second day on Cairngorm when Ray Zorro. and I discovered the West Wall.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Spud9 wrote:
... when Ray Zorro. and I discovered the West Wall.
Think you'll find it was discovered a long time ago.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Bode Swiller,
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I've skied loads on Cairngorm, some of the best ski days ever, plus some of the coldest most miserable I've ever had. If fuel wasn't so damn expensive I'd still drive up for a weekend's skiing. Even if you can't ski, there's always the Whisky.
You can't call yourself a "Real Skier" until you've skied in Scotland. Sorts out the men from the boys for sure.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Haggis_Trap wrote:
quote]Put bluntly the snow is not reliable, the access to it is poor, the image of Scottish skiing needs updating, the infrastructure can not compare to The Alps and it is simply not an attractive enough proposition for many UK skiers and snowboarders..... etc .... the basic problem is that the mountains are not high enough and the snow not good enough and there is very little that can be done about that.
[/quote]
First off I am a Scottish skiing fan, however I do believe this report is factually correct.
If I had to book a single week of skiing per year in advance, I would not book to goto Scotland, due to the snow not being reliable.
The access is mostly poor, how many times are the gates shut when accessing the 'Gorm, Lecht of Glenshee?? Glencoe and Fort William probably have better access.
Having said that, if the forecast is good, the moons align and I have a free day, I'd sooner 'pop up' to Scotland than the Alps....
I skied 23 days last season, 12 days in France, 9 in Switzerland and 2 in Scotland. The most fun I had skiing was the second day on Cairngorm when Ray Zorro. and I discovered the West Wall.
Ooooh, I'm quite chuffed to read that
It was a good day wasn't it and I rather enjoyed 'bumping' into you two on the West Wall and seeing the grins on your faces
As people have said the fact is skiing in Scotland can be bloody marvellous and it can be bloody awful, I think it'd be silly to pretend otherwise, but the good days coupled with the buzz you get from skiing somewhere a bit wild and kinda edgy (plus the Whiskey and good beer) can be amongst the best. Some of my most memorable days have been in Scotland, not always in the best weather I should add, and some have been elsewhere - powder in Mammoth in the middle of a massive storm wearing a face mask because my skin would have frozen if I didn't being another ... and I kinda suspect without being 'hardened up' by Scotland I wouldn't have enjoyed that so much lol!
admin wrote:
Early 80's, I was bored one Friday at college (in Woolwich) so hitch-hiked, kind of accidentally, to Aviemore, spent Saturday skiing for free by doing 'casual labour' on a couple of lifts in return for a lift pass and hitched back to London on Sunday.
Couldn't have made it to Austria so easily - and they'd have charged me lots of Schillings for my lift pass too!
Two years in a row, I wouldn't have skied at all if it wasn't for the Cairngorm.
Respect admin, that's a great story - when I was a teenager I used to do the same and managed to ski for pennies, camping at Morlich and hitching up early in the morning to knock on the ski patrol hut so I could sign up casual work on the lifts to get a free pass - proper ski bum stuff eh although hitching from London beats my trips over from Moray hands down - proper hardcore!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Cove hits the nail on the head with this quote...
Quote:
skiing in Scotland can be unique and thoroughly enjoyable. You just need to take it as it is.
Where he goes badly wrong is spending an entire article telling us all how poor a product it is in comparison to the alps.
That is an epic fail considering the real target market for Scottish skiing is weekenders living in the northern half of the UK. This simple fact seems to be something many journalists fail to grasp.
Apart being uniformed its actually pretty insulting to have the brass neck to then claim.
Quote:
....and the snow not good enough
Best of luck to James Cove. Usually I like his enthusiastic writing - however circulating articles like the recent effort from Planet Ski effort it a total dick move and also unecessary.
Quote:
the image of Scottish skiing needs updating
Well thanks for the help James....
Oh the irony - I am glad you enjoyed your one day on Cairngorm.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 7-10-11 19:22; edited 1 time in total
Wash your mouth out, that's the paddy stuff, it's Whisky
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Spyderman wrote:
roga wrote:
the Whiskey
Wash your mouth out, that's the paddy stuff, it's Whisky
Oooops
After all it is free
After all it is free
I haven't read James's article but I have to admit I do despair at times when ski journos are negative about Scottish skiing when they have little first hand experience of skiing in Scotland. Most skiers in the UK associate the Alps with the mega resorts, so any article comparing Scotland with the Alps is only going to have one outcome with Scotland coming a distant second. As Haggis_Trap stated, skiing in Scotland is more akin to skiing in some of the smaller resorts dotted across the globe and offers a completely different experience from anything to be found in the mega resorts of the Alps. My own view is that Scottish skiing favours someone with an adventurous spirit - someone willing to explore, get off the beaten track, where the amount of vertical skied in a day is not a key factor and someone who is willing to accept the variety of weather conditions that can be encountered in a day's skiing here as part of the experience.
I'm not suggesting Scotland as a destination resort for those who enjoy racking up the miles on motorway size pistes or for those who prefer booking their ski holiday months in advance. However, Scotland can be rewarding for someone who has the flexibility to book a ski trip at short notice allowing them to take advantage of good snow conditions. For the adventurous skier, given the right conditions Scotland can offer some fantastic skiing. My absolute best days skiing in the last 25 years have all been in Scotland and that's despite having skied in many resorts in North America and Europe.
Why have my best days been in Scotland? To me the answer is simple. Even on the best snow days in Scotland if you are savvy with an OS map and willing to hike for 10 minutes or so from the lifts you can leave the crowds behind. Quickly you are in a world of few tracks or no tracks at all, just you and your buddies and the mountain. To ski great lines so close to the lift system which have a distinctly backcountry feel is a pretty special mix in my view.
For anyone who hasn't skied in Scotland here is a slideshow Scottish Skiing 09-10 I put together which is basically a chronology of my 2009-10 season in Scotland. The emphasis is on touring and lift served off piste but it should demonstrate the type of skiing available when conditions are good. Extra points to anyone who can spot Moffatross and Haggis_Trap amongst the cast.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
HighRustler, Spot on.
The Scottish tourist board should be taking a look
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I been up there and love it but this tells me I know nothing. Like your styles, too. Thanks.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
).
