 Poster: A snowHead
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Has any body any recommendations or nightmares I should avoid ?
Looking for a week long course that teaches you off piste skills and mountain craft safety etc.
I guess probably in the US / Canada would be nice as they are a bit more powder sure !!
Thanks in advance.
m
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would echo Ch.'s words, powder skiing is a particular facet of off-piste skiing. I've not been on any course myself but have skied with a few instructors at times.
The Ski Club off piste skiing courses look good. I came across some groups when I did a season in Davos but I'm out of date on what they are doing these days. The website is
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/
Henry's avalanche talks are launching off piste weekends
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/0648-henrys-avalanche-talk-on-the-snow/
Also check out Russell Brice's Chamex and also Icicle in Chamonix
http://www.chamex.com/
http://www.icicleuk.com/
I'm not sure about the American's having better powder, isn't that all just a myth. Most French seasons I ski powder from the first snows in Nov/Dec (or even September!) through to June. However you also need to be able to ski crud, boilerplate, firn snow and other conditions (but not breakable crust - no one in their right mind ever goes near that stuff).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Whistler, Extremely Canadian.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think GrahamN thought the off-piste (or was it backcountry?) course with www.snoworks.co.uk was a worthwhile week.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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davidof, "(but not breakable crust - no one in their right mind ever goes near that stuff)." Or only when they're doing sterling duty for Snowheads snow reports!!! See opening day LDA!! 
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The skiclub ones in Flaine are very good, especially with Jan Westercamp instructing (if he still does).
Eagles (both with and without mountain tracks) are very good too.
Both of these two are reasonably priced (eagles is best for this) and normally offer plenty of hours instruction, which is what is required to get going off-p
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for the replys , will look into the sugestions .. Its been a great help
Marcus
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lambertm, Not sure how much off-piste you've done so far, but it doesn't sound like a lot. Sorry if I'm making wrong assumptions here and pitching it a bit early.
As rob@rar said, I went on the Snoworks Backcountry course at Gressoney last year. This was great, combining half of the week some excellent instruction and half guiding, with a bit of the mountain safety stuff you're also interested in, and will be going on a similar week to St Anton this year. I wouldn't think it's a beginners' course though (I've done about 10-15 weeks off-piste, but there were several with less, and a few with a lot more). They also do an "off-piste" course, but that is just half days, so may also not be so good to start with, but I've not been on that so I can't really comment much. One of the good things about Snoworks is that you get lots of video feedback in evening debrief sessions, so can see where you're going wrong (or very occasionally right  ). Their weeks are normally pretty large (30+), so they get plenty of scope for moving pupils between groups to set up the right level - each group will normally be 6-8 in size.
I discovered what off-piste was all about with the SCGB at Flaine with Yann Westerkamp as mentioned by pendodave and davidof, and would thoroughly recommend him for an off-piste virgin or early-days. You get a day warm-up with the rep then 5 full days with Yann and/or now someone called Dianne, who I've not met (his previous teaching partner was Regis, and apparently together they were a complete scream). They don't (or didn't) do any video feedback, so it's far more reliant on the traditional group instruction style and immediate verbal feedback, which is still pretty good. They normally run just two groups (of 6-7), but pitch each week at a particular skill/experience level. If you've not been with them before you'll have to self-assess, but the booking agents would help you with that (try to be honest but not over self-critical); if you're an adequate black run skier but done no off-piste you'll probably be a silver/silver- on their grading scheme, if a red-run cruiser then you'll probably be red (you'd then end up with a grading at the end of the week that goes on SCGB files for any future holidays with them). The SCGB is big on transceivers, so I'm pretty sure you'd get some practice with them, they do a bit on slope assessment, and Yann is pretty big on snow conservation - after all it's his office and he likes to keep it tidy! (He's great at finding powder stashes weeks after the last snow - helped by the fact that Flaine is not known as an off-piste paradise so is not overrun by powderhounds like Argentiere, St Anton, Val d'I etc). The downside of the Flaine courses is that the hotel they use (pretty much the only one in Flaine not sewn up by TOs) is very basic and the food pretty vile - but they do now go out to external restaurants for most evening meals. They also run off-piste courses at Argentiere and Val d'Isere; I've not been on those so can't really comment much. I have skied with a couple of the guides, and know of several more, for the Argentiere groups though and they're good, but it looks as if thoise weeks are more guiding than instruction (all of the names I recognise are guides rather than instructors). These can give you loads of advice on skiing strategy, general technique selection guidlines, snow assessment, route finding etc, but are not really allowed to give you direct personal technique instruction. I have though had one of the instructors they have down for the Val d'I weeks who's a complete waste of space (although I've heard very good reports from some of the others). The SCGB also do Mountain Awareness weekends in Argentiere, but again maybe for someone with a few solid weeks off-piste experience under their belt. These are taught by Graham McMahon, a guide (and a really nice guy, I skied with him at Gressoney last year) rather than instructor (or website administrator ), so you wouldn't really get any ski technique instruction on that weekend either.
People in the past have also recommended "Piste to Powder" in St Anton, but one :sH did report several cases of confidence crises after being pushed rather too hard.
If you're just starting out and don't mind a bit of a basic hotel, I'd thoroughly recommend SCGB in Flaine, otherwise Snoworks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Not that I am any good off piste I would recommend Warren Smith. His courses set you up with the principles and techniques you need for variable conditions. If there is off piste to go to then you will spend most of your time on it. The only problem with Verbier is the opposite to Flaine, in that it well known for off piste so it gets skied out quickly.
JP
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BernardC, I heard the eagle Ski Club were a pretty snobby bunch, apologies if you're a member.
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I can recommend EdSkiTherapy in La Grave. Instructor is Ed Matthews, good instruction and great attitude.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rich wrote: |
| BernardC, I heard the eagle Ski Club were a pretty snobby bunch, apologies if you're a member. |
it's a shame if that is someone's experience and certainly doesn't bear out my own.
the stereotypes involving beards and patched up goretex are closer to the mark in my experience 
their off-piste and touring courses are pretty good and extremely good value compared with other people. because of this, they often book up fast though
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As a member of Eagle ski club, I feel I ought to weigh in on their behalf !
I'm afraid to say that Arno has it just about right. While generalisations are a dangerous game, I would say that, by-and-large, they are a pretty down-to-earth outdoorsy type of person. Many are mountaineers and you're more likely to find them in an unguarded hut brewing up on a primus than getting large and loud in Meribel or VdIsere.
I guess ultimately that with any group thrown together there's always the chance you're going to get people you don't get on with. I think that would apply to any of the groups mentioned in the thread but I've not heard of any of them having a persistent problem in this regard, even the scgb
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Poster: A snowHead
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rich,
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BernardC, I heard the eagle Ski Club were a pretty snobby bunch, apologies if you're a member.
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......... one has to keep ones standards after all............ 
...... honestly though, I have never experienced anything other than helpfullness with the Eagle Ski Club - kindness personified.
They do seem to come in for a bit of ribbing here ..... as I have found to my cost I have been ridiculed, poked fun at and other things which I can't remember now, etc, etc - generally maligned etc, etc, so much so that I had to sell my false beard ..... The ribbing is all in good taste & a bit of a laugh ....
lambertm, ... ignore this waffle ... ! the Eagle courses are great and you have many more excellent reviews above from others, who have direct experience and whose opinions you can respect. The important task will be to choose the one most suitable to your needs. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yoda, I won't mention a name but the comment came from a french guide who's worked with Eagle.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rich wrote: |
| Yoda, I won't mention a name but the comment came from a french guide who's worked with Eagle. |
that explains it - the french are always making unfair generalisations
seriously, though, the eagles are extremely unsnobby in my experience. they actually award grants to young skiers to go on training courses and their tours are generally aimed very much at keeping costs as low as possible so I don't think anyone can seriously question their desire to make their offerings as inclusive as possible.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| easiski wrote: |
| davidof, "(but not breakable crust - no one in their right mind ever goes near that stuff)." Or only when they're doing sterling duty for Snowheads snow reports!!! See opening day LDA!! |
Ah I remember your crust skiing skills from the EoSB. Well it is a tough job but someone has to.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rich, hmm well we can only go on our own experience. Just in passing I don't see many French names (1 maybe?) on this year's tour list
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I have skied with Pete Silver-Gillespie, a BASI 1 Trainer. www.alpinecoaching.co.uk He runs off piste and mountain awareness courses thoughout the year, does a bit for Phil Smith as well. Fantastic guy with a real talent for putting the information across in a fun way. You might know his name from the Ski instructional videos "The ultimate learning experience" that he made with Warren Smith. I have known & skied with Pete since 1991 and could'nt recommend him more highly.
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I'd second Pete Silver-Gillespie. Excellent teacher (very highly qualified, for people who care about such things ), nice guy, formidable off-piste skier. Either via his own company, Alpine Coaching or via Phil Smith's Snoworks.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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lambertm, may I suggest Whistler, as that is where the powder seems to be at the moment, and Monday to Wednesday with the Dave Murray lot, brushing up on technique which'll tend to be a mixture of piste and off-piste, and then Thursday and Friday with the Extremely Canadian, who'll give you strategy on dealing with the steep and deeps, and really take you out of your comfort zone. It wouldn't be a cheap week, but definitely worth it.
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lambertm
Try www.snoworks.co.uk they offer specific offpiste/back country weeks.
You can pick from France ( Val D), Austria (St Anton), Italy (Gressoney),Canada (fernie) or the ultimate trip to Chile in the summer.
Sorry if this post is a bit pluggish ! but Snoworks are good 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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lambertm, would agree with Kramer, that the powder is certainly in Whistler at the moment, however I skied with Extremely Canadian a couple of years ago and wasn't impressed. They were too keen on living up to the extremely part of their name. There was very little coaching and certainly no mountaincraft element to the course. There was too much focus on taking you out of your comfort zone - which is fine if they have given you the tools to cope with this beforehand. Talking to the other skiers in my group they all had the same thoughts. I would however recommend both Warren Smith in Europe and NASTC in the US. They both have a similar philosophy with regards to skiing, biomechanics and equipment and gradually build up your technique on easier terrain before you venture off onto more challenging slopes, so you are actually skiing it rather than just surviving it
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stewart woodward, they are very good but you might be even more explicit that you work for them? 
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slikedges
Sorry, yes i do work for snoworks now & then.
I have also done courses with Phil in the past, and race training with Emma C A (phils wife), which like everybody else i paid for! So i think i can offer an opinion.
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You know it makes sense.
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stewart woodward, even more kudos to you that you're considered so good by them that they now view you as a colleague then! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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BGA, I would agree with your assessment of Extremely Canadian, and I wouldn't recommend them on their own, but in combination with three days of more technical tuition by the Dave Murray guys the two courses complement each other extremely well in my view.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fair point Kramer, I would agree with that. I would just add that you need to be firm with the EC guys as to precisely how far you are happy to be out of your comfort zone, lest you find yourself having to do a 10ft cornice drop into a fairly tight couloir (that would be me, with the instructor at the bottom shouting 'Come on man, you can do it. What doesn't kiil you makes you stronger' - and no I'm not making this up). We had a full and frank exchange of views after that incident and I have to say things did improve for the rest of the day.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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BGA,  I mean they are called EXTREMELY Canadian
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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stuarth, obviously I'm not one to name and shame but suffice to say Mr Mayer must have changed his approach in the last three years then! My wife skiied in a different group with a guy called Ralph and she and the other guy in her group (who was a former pro ice hockey player and no slouch) felt the same about him. Talking later to the others in my group one of them who skiied regularly with EC said it was quite common for people to ski the first day and not come back for the second day. From what you say the courses must now work slightly differently and that is definitely a good thing.
Arno, yes they are called Extremely Canadian but let's be honest there are few skiers outside of the professional ranks who are capable of proper 'extreme' skiing and EC must be aware that their clientbase is not drawn from that population. I have since skiied more difficult terrain with other ski coaches but only after they have made a much better assessment of my abilities than the EC guys did.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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BGA,
I've skied with Extremely Canadian '_quite_ a bit' over the past few years, and I've not seen many people who don't come back for the second day - Even a guy who had to be roped off a cliff by the ski patrol came back the next day!! (and no, he wasn't in Steve's group or a difficult spot - just unlucky (then very lucky! ))
Incidently, did I ski with you the year before last, can't think of that many other regulars?
Of the coaches you mention, I can see how you might get that impression from Steve Mayer as I've had a run in or two with him over places I refused to ski (amongst others, Teetering Rock - check it out! ) but generally found him an outstanding instructor (I think he is/was a CSIA IV) - in fact one who's made a huge difference to my skiing.
I'm really surprised that the same could be said about Ralph Forsyth (I've skied with him a lot too!) as he really is a very mellow guy, and much more from the ski instructor side than the racer/extreme skier side, so tends to have more understanding of 'real' peoples limitations - I even managed to finish _him_ off last season (if anyone gets to ski with him, request Bushrat)
I think it's fair to say skiing with Extremely Canadian isn't like a typical ski lesson, but this is why I like skiing with them.
Back to the original question,if I was in Whistler and I wanted a lesson in off-piste skiing I'd go with Extremely Canadian, however for a lesson in mountaincraft I'd probably go with someone from Whistler Alpine Guides (The guy I did my RAC with, a chap called Eric, was truly a man of the moutains)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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lambertm, I don't think anyone's mentioned it but you will need to be quite fit. I find 1.50 hours off-piste the same effort as a whole day skiing on piste (but much more rewarding).
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I went out with Ralph from Extremely Canadian. The whole day was spent alternating between huge amounts of fear, followed by a massive feeling of accomplishment. He scared the hell out of me whilst really broadening my horizons of what it was possible for me to ski.
I didn't go back for the second day because I was ill in bed with stomach cramps unfortunately, for the second of two days that week! (Although I'm glad that I didn't go out, as when I forced myself out in the afternoon I could barely ski a blue run!). I am gutted to have missed it, especially as it was the day after it had dumped. I would definitely go back to them again. and plan to claim my missed day the next time that I'm out there.
I think that they have an ethos of taking you outside your comfort zone, by quite a way, showing you that actually you can do it, and letting it build your confidence. I had a few problems with the Piste to Powder lot in St Anton last year similar to the ones that BGA describes above, and I think that they have a similar ethos as well. It seems to me that letting go of fear and building confidence is a big step towards learning to ski powder.
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It sounds as though Extremely Canadian is not for women! that sort of thing doesn't generally work without testosterone running around!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, I think that you do need to have or find a bit of a gung ho element to enjoy it.
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Although to be honest, I think that the breakthrough with me was Ewans lesson at the EoSB last year, which has given me the confidence to enjoy things like the Extremely Canadian course more.
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FAQ
I can however say that it's not a club for poseurs 