 Poster: A snowHead
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I am heading to Val D'Isere in January and am thinking it's time for a lesson or 2.
I really struggle on moguls, especially in poor light or when there has been a snowfall. So I'd like to improve my technique.
I am thinking of booking two private lessons (full morning or afternoon) as opposed to joining the group lessons.
I could share the cost with a couple of others from the aprty I am going with. So at about £200 per session split 3 ways it isn't too expensive.
Any thoughts on private versus (big) group?
Any suggestions for a company or an individual instructor?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'd always recommend private, particularly if you want to work on something specific. But opinions differ and it does depend a bit on how you learn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd be knackered doing a half day private in bumps, a group might ease that.
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I'd agree with Jedster . trouble with a group session is that you'll do what the instructor thinks you need as a group not just the key skills you want to tune and you'll ski to the lowest level in the group. not so bad if that's you but tedious if its not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@jedster, +1
Very few people seem to want to work on bumps anyway and so your requests may fall on deaf ears. I've even had an instructor tell me I didn't want to work on them. Git. He wanted an easy time.
Plus, the technique is rather specialised (to the extent that any ski turn is) and so there's a lot of slow explanation and piece by piece practise (or at least, that was how I was finally taught).
So I would counsel, definitely, private. A good instructor will also contribute on other aspects of your skiing though as moguls only really come together once everything else is pretty much together, IMV. A good instructor will also be able to manage a couple of different levels whereas managing 10 becomes impossible.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Thanks fopr the quick responses guys. Some good advice.
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People will probably disagree, and it definitely depends on the individual, but (assuming you can ski well on normal terrain - good posture, good balance, decent leg strength) I wouldn't personally bother with lessons for bumps unless you are absolutely desperate to crack it in your next holiday (which no instructor will be able to guarantee anyway).
Assuming you have that base of technique, they are something you can learn yourself (IMO) by watching good mogul skiers and copying them, and having the confidence to let the rhythm come and to go with it. It's the kind of thing which suddenly 'clicks'.
But if you are set on lessons, definitely go private and ask to be videotaped, too. Nothing like being able to see your errors, as opposed to just having them told to you.
Obviously, re vision in low light, I assume you've experimented with different lenses? The right goggles make as much difference (in my experience) as about a grand's worth of private lessons!
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I learned much more in private lessons once I was past the rank beginner stage. They are money well spent.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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A class can be fun if it's small, the people are of similar standard and if the instructor is good. These are big variables, most of which you have little control.
At least with private lessons, you control the variables...and this is where my money would go. There are some great instructors working in Val D'Isere.
Here are some instructors that I'd recommend:
Simon Mc Combe (Mountain Masters)
Dave Cowell (Mountain Masters)
Aaron Cassells (Progression Ski)
Neil Woodward - Woody (Progression)
Ken Smith (Progression)
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If you're in Val D'Isere, have you thought about doing the Evolution 2 Fine Skills course? I did it years ago over in Tignes & we spent a whole morning learning how to ski moguls. The groups are small & I learned a lot from watching other people learning at the same level as myself. If they still run the course in the same way, each day you are learning a different technique, including an off-piste day. I think you can book on to a particular day rather than doing the whole week, so if you aren't interested in the other stuff I you could just do the bumps day. Worth a thought.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's probably a bit horses-for-courses. Unlike @northernsoulboy, moguls are the place where lessons have made a big difference for me. I opted for a couple of private sessions for exactly this with Derek from Ski Marmalade in Meribel (who is a moguls maestro) on my most recent trip, and got a lot out of them. Depending on what level your general skiing is at you might find that one of the clinics that TDC offer in Val d'Isere would be a good compromise: small group lessons but aimed at particular skills (like moguls). There are plenty of people here who will recommend TDC in general, and Steve Angus in particular, though I've not had the chance to ski with them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Navrig, whereabouts do you live? Some of the indoor snowdomes do moguls specific lessons and specific weekends when they create moguls which may also be an option.
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@northernsoulboy, I'd certainly disagree, although we might be differing in what we mean about skiing bumps.
I specifically mean being able to ski the fall line at pace, with grace.
That requires specific modification to technique, and I assure you that despite 3 seasons of practice plus watching Fistful of Moguls daily in the summers, I never quite cracked it until I had one very memorable lesson.
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You know it makes sense.
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@sazza42, I think I did that course: many, MANY, years ago!
After a few hours of practice, we actually used the moguls dug by JCB for the professional racers. Sobering experience... just when you thought you'd cracked it, bang! they get a whole level more tricky.
If was a great week though, with Moguls, Slalom, offpiste, and one day spent the whole lesson with your boots unclipped. Thoroughly recommend if they are still running it.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| under a new name wrote: |
@northernsoulboy, I'd certainly disagree, although we might be differing in what we mean about skiing bumps.
I specifically mean being able to ski the fall line at pace, with grace.
That requires specific modification to technique, and I assure you that despite 3 seasons of practice plus watching Fistful of Moguls daily in the summers, I never quite cracked it until I had one very memorable lesson. |
That's exactly what I mean, yep (and it's what I do, though I'd have to concede the grace part is subjective). I did say it wouldn't work for everyone, I can only speak for me - I am just much better at seeing and copying than being told. It's not that I haven't had lessons, I have obviously (as a kid and even an adult), or that I think I'm anything special, I'm not, I just find it quite hard to interpret verbal instructions. But anyway, if the consensus is lessons I certainly wouldn't go against it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@northernsoulboy, oh, lordy, verbal instruction? Yeah, me too. My breakthrough bumps lesson had multiple on chair explanations which just didn't work and then a good hour of very bizarre slow step by step demos.
Which seemed to. I also believe (!) that I am quite good at learning by observation (whether I actually am or not is uo for debate) but it definitely isn't for everyone.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Arctic Roll, afaik, they don't dig the moguls with JCBs...but I thought I could ski bumps until I encountered the Olympic slope at Deer Valley. A whole new thing... 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@under a new name, I bow to your knowledge! (I admit I was being a little easy on the verite) but whatever they used to create them , they were crisp and even and deep ...
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Wow, what a great set of replies. This place is realy useful and inhabited by some realy helpful people. Many thanks.
My posture and style on flat corduroy slops is OK, I can cope with steep and smooth quite well and can even cope woith the odd bit of ice and hard pack (did my apprenticeship on Cairngorm and Glenshee).
However as soon as the bumps appear any style/posture and finesse goes to pot. Throw in ankle deep snow with the bumps and lower the light and I am a gibbering wreck. I am fed up being the one snailing it down the sides of the mogul field with the rest of the group waiting for me. I don't want or need to be first. I am happy to be last but not by more than a few seconds.
I wont go into detail about my one and only descent of the Mont Fort moguls at Verbiere. A quick dose of vertigo put pay to any hope of coping with that!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd say private lessons but you probably only need an hour or two at a time, not a full morning/afternoon.
Usually you meet up with your instructor and tell them what you want to work on. They take you somewhere suitable and watch you ski it with your current style. It's only then they give you any training - and that's quite likely to just be 1 or 2 minor things. A couple of runs after that you're basically done on the learning and down to the practicing/perfecting (or remembering for more than 3 turns in a row at least) - and you don't need to be paying someone while you do that! If it starts going wrong, book another couple of hours another day.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'd vote for two x 2hr private lessons with the same instructor a few days apart. You've had some good recommendations of specific instructors further up the thread; you won't go wrong with any of those.
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I'd second the last two comments. A good instructor will work your balls off and give you specific messages to work on in a two hour 1-on-1. You can then spend several days/weeks working on what you've been told and shown. TBH it would only take an hour with the right instructor.
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Definitely go with private for something specific like this, as there's no guarantee whatsoever that a group lesson would choose to coach mogul skiing. Also would second Mairead's advice about going for two lots of shorter lessons a few days apart. I think mogul skiing is hard work (particularly if you struggle at it), and an entire morning/afternoon of it might be a bit too long. Then come back a few days later to check progress.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Brilliant.
2 x 2hr lessons seems to be the way to go. I'll have a look for some of the instructors listed above.
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Going back to the original question, I don't think Private lessons are necessarily better than Group lessons, or vice versa. I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve. For overall development I think group lessons are better because you spend more time in front of the instructor during the week. For working on one or two specific things private lessons might be better. I know in my own skiing, for any given week I've been in resort the right group lessons have improved my skiing more than a couple of private lessons.
If price is a consideration, 2x2hr private lessons is likely to be more expensive than standard group lessons.
Several of the ski schools in Val d'Isere offer group clinics, typically 3-hour sessions for three days in small groups, which might give you a specific focus on moguls. Might be worth exploring that option.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I am just much better at seeing and copying than being told
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I find good explanation quite helpful but like you I'm good at watching and copying. Following really good skiers around works very well for me. If I have lessons then I want them to be with an inspiring skier that I get to watch closely (not from the back of the class).
But I have to say, I don't think you are I are typical of how most people learn. Most people struggle to replicate what they are watching without some specific drills and feedback. For that reason, our advice on how to approach lessons may not be the most useful!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="jedster"]
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Most people struggle to replicate what they are watching without some specific drills and feedback. |
I certainly can't pick up on all the subtle nuances of what I'm watching, whether it is moving fore/aft along the ski, the exact timing/amount of edge change, or when and how much weight to transfer....though I have some hope in super slow motion.
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I have done well watching and copying. I find it is easy to do on wide, smooth piste but very difficult on moguls. Hence the thought on lessons.
I wasn't looking for a better or worse answer generally just views on my particular needs and wants.
With respect to costs I realise that private lessons may be more costly than group but this would allow me to spend more time with my friends. Luckily, thats something I am able and happy to pay for.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I certainly can't pick up on all the subtle nuances of what I'm watching, whether it is moving fore/aft along the ski, the exact timing/amount of edge change, or when and how much weight to transfer....though I have some hope in super slow motion.
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I have a good mate who is a similar standard skier to me. We are both engineers by education although not by profession. Over the years we have had a lot of chair lift conversations unpicking what people below us are doing then experimenting with it, a lot of the time these end up being the subtle things you mention - "on that last run I tried doing a bit more x and found y, I think its because z. What do you think?". If something works you do more of it until it stops being helpful.
Problem is when you get half decent there are so few good role models to watch but you can learn from what people are doing wrong too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jedster wrote: |
I have a good mate who is a similar standard skier to me. We are both engineers by education although not by profession. Over the years we have had a lot of chair lift conversations unpicking what people below us are doing then experimenting with it, a lot of the time these end up being the subtle things you mention - "on that last run I tried doing a bit more x and found y, I think its because z. What do you think?". If something works you do more of it until it stops being helpful.
Problem is when you get half decent there are so few good role models to watch but you can learn from what people are doing wrong too. |
I can remember having a lesson with Simon Mc Combe, where we were going full tilt down the OK run into La Daille, with him in front....when we stopped, he was able to diagnose my skiing in minute detail...eg. On your 3rd turn, your edge change was too abrupt; on your penultimate turn, your uphill ski was too far ahead, with too much pressure on it. I have to say, I was impressed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| , with him in front....when we stopped, he was able to diagnose my skiing in minute detail.. |
Literally eyes in the back of his head if he was in front 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@kitenski, I've had the same experience with a french ESF chum. Pretty impressive to be able to diagnose issues aurally.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Private is going to really focus on your own particular issues. I can definitely recommend Dave Cowell, who has to be the most cheerful and enthusiastic instructor I have ever had. He's a real laugh as well as an excellent instructor. If you can get him for a private lesson in January go for it-he is both an instructor with Mountain Masters and their offshoot for instructor training/longer courses with ICESI who are very busy in Jan. (We did a 4 week course with them last season, all brilliant instructors).What I liked about him was that he knows that not all drills or ways of explaining things works for everyone and so he will suggest alternative ways of trying to achieve the same changes to your technique. They have great hand held cameras to record your technique and then can project the footage onto the wall of a bar or mountain restaurant within 20 mins, explain what is good, and then suggest what you need to do to change. It actually helped in a group situation as you can see what others do better or differently for you and see what they recommend to change.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks @Perty. Mountain Masters have an auto reply saying they are closed for the summer. I guess they will start picking up emails soon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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