I'm struggling with "grippy short turns" and I have 2 questions:
Does "grip from the fall line" mean the same as "grip after the fall line" ?
If not, what is the difference?
Thanks
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
No, there is a difference. Grip means when the ski is following along an arc without skidding sideways (so the tail of the ski follows the same path as the tip of the ski). Grip at the fall line means that the ski grips at the point when the skis are facing directly down the slope, at the point known as the fall line (occasionally the flow line). After the fall line is later in the turn, so the grip occurs after the midway point.
Increasing performance in short turns means getting grip earlier and earlier (i.e. before the fall line).
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 9-02-16 16:40; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Is that not carving when the tail follows the same path as the tip? I'm thinking more of skidded short turns with grip at different points.
Is that not carving when the tail follows the same path as the tip? I'm thinking more of skidded short turns with grip at different points.
What do you do to get grip earlier in the turn?
Carving normally means cleanly linked turns with no skidding/twisiting of the skis at any point, with clean transitions where the skis are rolled from edge to new edge without skidding. Skis might be locked on to the edges at some point in the turn (typically later in the turn) but that does make it a carved turn.
To get grip earlier in the turn you need to tip the ski to a big enough edge angle so that it grips, and reduce any twisting/skidding you are doing to zero so the skis follow the arc along their length. Tough to do as the slope gets steeper, as you need to creat very big edge angles in a very short period of time.
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rob@rar wrote:
stevomcd wrote:
Quote:
What do you do to get grip earlier in the turn?
Ah, therein lies the path to enlightenment...
+1
I'm in an argument with a ski instructor who is insisting that "grip from the fall line" is the same as "grip after the fall line"...
Would anyone have any video example of the difference?
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Pending wrote:
I'm in an argument with a ski instructor who is insisting that "grip from the fall line" is the same as "grip after the fall line"...
I suppose that depends on how much after the fall line the grip comes in. If it's a fraction before the start of the next turn, that's very late and a completely different level of performance to grip coming in at the fall line.
But if grip is just after the fall line then there's probably not much difference, unless you are being examined against a criterion which requires grip at the fall line.
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rob@rar wrote:
unless you are being examined against a criterion which requires grip at the fall line.
The criterion is "from the fall line" ...
The question is whether or not grip which starts below the fall line can be considered to be "from the fall line". I don't see how it can, since if something starts from a certain point it has to be at that point when it starts, but I'm being told that there is no difference, so maybe I'm missing something?
Opinions?
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@Pending, I think it's semantics really.
If you think about the turn as being a clock-face, for me, I'd define things as follows:
Grip all the way round the turn: Grip starts from 12 o'clock (i.e. from the edge change)
Grip before the fall line: Grip starts no later than 2 o'clock
Grip at the fall-line: Grip starts no later than 3 o'clock
Grip from the fall-line: Things are happening at the fall-line and grip comes on absolutely no later than 4 o'clock
Grip after the fall-ine: Grip only at the end of the turn, from 5 o'clock
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I agree with Rob.
Purely linguistically, it is ambiguous, as most language is. But I think when people say "grip from the fall line", they mean "grip [which starts] from the fall line [and continues to the end of the turn]", and that is more grip than "grip [which starts] after the fall line [and continues to the end of the turn]". This is certainly how I've understood the BASI-speak when describing criteria for reaching different levels. After the fall line could mean a whole range of things: just after, or way after. At the fall line could mean (but I don't think it does!) you momentarily got grip at the fall line, but neither before nor after!
But this sounds like a particularly pointless argument. Instead of trying to describe what the criterion is, demonstrate it, draw a picture, or any number of other things.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Pending,
Ask the instructor to demonstrate and then explain by breaking down his/her demo, and telling you what he/she is trying to achieve and how it should feel.
At the very least a good demo should help clarify what they want you to do and a well explained breakdown from someone who knows what they are talking about in plain words could be enlightening.
If you have lessons from an instructor or coach and are not sure what they are saying or asking you to do ask them to explain/break it down and demo it for you, a good instructor will be only to happy to do so unless it is the 50th time you asked for same demo.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
A good demo usually illustrates, in no uncertain terms, how what they're doing differs from what you're doing. That's what I find, anyway.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Pending wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
stevomcd wrote:
Quote:
What do you do to get grip earlier in the turn?
Ah, therein lies the path to enlightenment...
+1
I'm in an argument with a ski instructor who is insisting that "grip from the fall line" is the same as "grip after the fall line"...
Would anyone have any video example of the difference?
Right, so 'my taxi arrives any time from 12:30' isn't the same as 'my taxi arrives any time after 12:30'?
You ain't paying him enough.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Gerry wrote:
Right, so 'my taxi arrives any time from 12:30' isn't the same as 'my taxi arrives any time after 12:30'?
You ain't paying him enough.
I'm a bit confused by that - if I book a taxi from 12:30 I'm expecting the taxi to turn up at 12:30 and wait for me if necessary, not turn up at 12:40, right?
If I'm employed to work from 9 am, I am required to be there at 9am, and remain. Arriving anytime after 9 is late.
Another example would be if a ski lesson is booked from 9-11, I'm expecting the instructor to be there at 9, not wander in anytime after 9.
Or say I plan to start a journey from home, but actually set off from somewhere else, then I didn't start "from home".
"From" to me implies where something starts, and if it happens later then that isn't where it starts.
I know it seems like it's just semantics, but there seems to be a significant difference in performance between gripping at the fall line and gripping below it. So there is actually a lot at stake, and a demo isn't an option, unfortunately
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stevomcd wrote:
[
Grip from the fall-line: Things are happening at the fall-line and grip comes on absolutely no later than 4 o'clock
Could you elaborate? What do you mean by things happening?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Pending wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Right, so 'my taxi arrives any time from 12:30' isn't the same as 'my taxi arrives any time after 12:30'?
You ain't paying him enough.
I'm a bit confused by that - if I book a taxi from 12:30 I'm expecting the taxi to turn up at 12:30 and wait for me if necessary, not turn up at 12:40, right?
If I'm employed to work from 9 am, I am required to be there at 9am, and remain. Arriving anytime after 9 is late.
Another example would be if a ski lesson is booked from 9-11, I'm expecting the instructor to be there at 9, not wander in anytime after 9.
Or say I plan to start a journey from home, but actually set off from somewhere else, then I didn't start "from home".
"From" to me implies where something starts, and if it happens later then that isn't where it starts.
I know it seems like it's just semantics, but there seems to be a significant difference in performance between gripping at the fall line and gripping below it. So there is actually a lot at stake, and a demo isn't an option, unfortunately
Right, you intend to scratch your arse at 12:30. Do you stick your finger up your arse just before 12:30 and start scratching on the stroke of 12:30, or do you start moving your finger towards your arse at the stroke of 12:30?
Also, what do your mean by 'below the fall line'? Isn't below the fall line still the fall line?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@Gerry, Being crude doesn't add anything in the way of clarity.
Below the fall line is only still in the fall line if you are sliding directly downhill.
In a turn, which is what I am asking about, below the fall line means after you have crossed the fall line and are traveling down and across the hill.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 9-02-16 19:39; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
balernoStu wrote:
@Pending, have you watched the BASI videos?
That's where this all started, unfortunately
balernoStu wrote:
My opinion: gripping from the fall line means the same as grip starting at the fall line (and continuing through the turn).
@Gerry, Being crude doesn't add anything in the way of clarity.
Below the fall line is only still in the fall line if you are sliding directly downhill.
In a turn, which is what I am asking about, below the fall line means after you have crossed the fall line and are traveling down and across the hill.
Isn't that 'after' rather than 'below'? Is this for BASI 2 or 3?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Pending wrote:
balernoStu wrote:
@Pending, have you watched the BASI videos?
That's where this all started, unfortunately
Lol
Pending wrote:
Below the fall line is only still in the fall line if you are sliding directly downhill.
In a turn, which is what I am asking about, below the fall line means after you have crossed the fall line and are traveling down and across the hill.
I understand the reference to be the direction skis are pointing when they grip, not your body's trajectory.
After all it is free
After all it is free
In a turn "below the fall line" and "after the fall line" must mean the same thing, right? As in, the skis have passed the 3 o clock position and are traveling around the arc.
The big question is whether gripping at a point after or below the fall line is the same as gripping "from" it
It's trying to establish what level of performance is required at different levels
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Pending wrote:
In a turn "below the fall line" and "after the fall line" must mean the same thing, right? As in, the skis have passed the 3 o clock position and are traveling around the arc.
The big question is whether gripping at a point after or below the fall line is the same as gripping "from" it
It's trying to establish what level of performance is required at different levels
Why? 'After' and 'below' in relation to the fall line are two different places in space and time.
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Gerry wrote:
Why? 'After' and 'below' in relation to the fall line are two different places in space and time.
No, not when what is being discussed is the position of the skis as they travel around the arc of a turn, and the point at which they start to grip. Sure, you could be standing 6 feet directly downhill of where I hit the fall line and hope that I miss you, but that isn't what we are talking about.
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Jump and hop and swing.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Pending wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Why? 'After' and 'below' in relation to the fall line are two different places in space and time.
No, not when what is being discussed is the position of the skis as they travel around the arc of a turn, and the point at which they start to grip. Sure, you could be standing 6 feet directly downhill of where I hit the fall line and hope that I miss you, but that isn't what we are talking about.
Well, if this is official BASI standard terminology (Rob, is it?) then no wonder it's such a ucked up organisation.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@rob@rar,
Could I trouble you for a professional opinion related to this:
Quote:
To get grip earlier in the turn you need to tip the ski to a big enough edge angle so that it grips, and reduce any twisting/skidding you are doing to zero so the skis follow the arc along their length. Tough to do as the slope gets steeper, as you need to creat very big edge angles in a very short period of time.
At NY I was playing around with the creating very high edge angles in a short time thing (trying to link short carves on very hard pistes). I think I had a kind of revelation but I'm not sure how whether it would be blessed technically...
In short carves you build up a lot of energy which you have to manage at the end of the turn (LeMasters "skiing the virtual mogul" thing). Of course you can use the resulting unweighting to steer the skis through the fall line to a new steering angle for the new turn. The issue is then how to you place the edges at a high enough edge angle to hold on the hard surface. I found by staying lower and more flexed through the transition I had more of a window to roll ankles and knees so that I could gently place the skis already at a high edge angle (rather than reweight them flatter and build up the angle). Obviously the management of the unweighting has to be pretty delicate - you don't want to be airbourne, just very light. It surprised me that staying lower/flexed helped but I THINK you get more of a range of motion in the tipping like that.
Does this make any sense?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
jedster wrote:
Does this make any sense?
Yes, absolutely. Search Youtube for JF Beaulieu for some of his short turns. His hips don't change height above the snow by a large amount, but he uses a big range of leg movement, meaning his legs are very flexed underneath his hips at transition, with a quick and controlled extension on to the new edges to create big angles early in the new turn. A marked "cross-under" transition, but great skill exercised to ensure the skis are placed on high angles and loaded early in the turn for great grip. Tough to do on steeper terrain. Way too tough for me.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 10-02-16 13:13; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Gerry wrote:
Well, if this is official BASI standard terminology (Rob, is it?) then no wonder it's such a ucked up organisation.
I don't think it ever gets that complicated. Generally it would be described as grip before the fall line, grip at the fall line or grip after the fall line. Simple and unambiguous, to me and everyone I've ever skied with on BASI courses.
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rob@rar wrote:
Gerry wrote:
Well, if this is official BASI standard terminology (Rob, is it?) then no wonder it's such a ucked up organisation.
I don't think it ever gets that complicated. Generally it would be described as grip before the fall line, grip at the fall line or grip after the fall line. Simple and unambiguous, to me and everyone I've ever skied with on BASI courses.
Great, that's how I always understood it. Thanks!
'Grip below the fall line' what utter rubbish.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Search Youtube for JF Beaulieu for some of his short turns. His hips don't change height above the snow by a large amount, but he uses a big range of leg movement, meaning his legs are very flexed underneath his hips at transition, with a quick and controlled extension on to the new edges to create big angles early in the new turn. A marked "cross-under" transition, but great skill exercised to ensure the skis are placed on high angles and loaded early in the turn for great grip. Tough to do on steeper terrain. Way too tough for me.
Rob,
You probably don't remember (why would you?) but last year in San Cass, we were doing short turns one afternoon and I mentioned that I felt I had to ski in 'full attack' mode to get anything like the desired result.
Well, that guy (Beaulieu) is doing for real exactly what my feeble imagination told me I was doing on a gentle slope that lovely sunny afternoon
Something to aim for, perhaps?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@jedster, have you seen this video, showing in slow motion a couple of low transitions leading to big (and effective) edge angles, Shiffrin in GS:
edit: seems you have to click the youTube logo to view
@Hurtle, she is awesome, yes, and if we can learn just a little from her brilliance...
@under a new name, #3, lol.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
under a new name wrote:
@jedster, i find getting airborn at the end of a good ol' slalom turn on a fierce pair of skis is #3 of may favourite ski things
+10
I hope I get back into my skiing enough to experience it again. For me it is the wow factor linking them together
After all it is free
After all it is free
@rob@rar, @balernoStu,
Thanks guys. Loved the video. Clearly I was skiing exactly like that But it is a great example - she is really compact in some of those transitions.
@under a new name,
Quote:
@jedster, i find getting airborn at the end of a good ol' slalom turn on a fierce pair of skis is #3 of may favourite ski things
For sure - certainly when the snow is a little forgiving. I just mean when the piste is icy you want to be a bit delicate about how you put the edges down rather than land with a bump. At least for someone of my extremely limited racing experience
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Gee skiing seems so complicated
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rob@rar wrote:
I don't think it ever gets that complicated. Generally it would be described as grip before the fall line, grip at the fall line or grip after the fall line. Simple and unambiguous, to me and everyone I've ever skied with on BASI courses.
Grip before / at / after the fall line - simple and unambiguous - I totally agree!!
The problem arises when the passing criteria states grip from the fall line, which it does for L2
So, is that the same level of performance? Or have the criteria become tougher and the videos need updating?
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