 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello - Great site with a lot of helpful information thank you!
We are a family of 4, our boys aged 9 & 10, after visiting Zell am See for the New Year 2016 now have the ski bug. We loved it but we try not to go back to the same place and would like to try something new.
We are limited with work when we can go and I have seen some flights to Geneva for Christmas - Please excuse my ignorance but are the slopes even open on Christmas Day?
We would love somewhere not too far a drive from the airport (1hr or so), nice long family friendly runs, nice town with good food and beer:-)
I have looked at Saint Gervais and Megève but would really appreciate any advice on offer.
We will arrive in the afternoon on the 24th for 1 weeks stay - also wondering what I would do on Christmas Day food wise, would be great not cooking the traditional Christmas Dinner...
Thank you in advance for your time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@famof4, welcome to SHs. Yes, the lifts will all be running on Christmas Day, and we asked the same sort of question the first time we went skiing at Christmas. You will be able to eat out on Christmas Day and not worry about the sprouts and bread sauce.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You are unlikely to find trad Xmas food but everything will be open.
Just bear in mind that Xmas week is v. early season - so you should think of it as a family Xmas holiday not as a ski holiday, necessarily - and good snow is not guaranteed lower down. However, the higher you go (to an extent) the fewer non-ski activities that are typically available.
St Gervais f'rinstance is a good choice as if the skiing isn't great (and it may well be awesome, but that is entirely unpredictable) you have a number of alternative activities around.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@famof4, Good advice above, but do you definitely want to ski at Christmas? IMO Easter is a much, much nicer time to go. Better weather, more snow, better value, more sunlight etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You can be unlucky with the weather any time of season. Any Ski Amade resort at christmas.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yes flights to Salzburg, then Ski Amade would be a good option. If you hire a car it's less than an hour. If you get a bus transfer (like we did last Christmas to Wagrain) it's an hour or just over.
We're looking at the moment for the same plan, Christmas Eve to New Year's Eve (favouring Saalbach or Schladming at the moment). Be aware that Christmas Eve is when Christmas is generally celebrated, so if you arrive in a resort later in the day some restaurants and shops will be closed or will close early. Restaurants that are open can be busy, so good to book in advance.
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Off to Schladming dec 16th for the week before Christmas. Keeping fingers crossed! Easter hols (Wales) a little too late this year so risking a good early season.
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Christmas day being a Sunday this year is a problem for the Rumdiary household. Nobody wants to travel on Christmas Eve this year and, as it's their mothers turn to have them in Feb half term, I am thinking to hell with it. Take the children out of school for 5 days in late January. Absolutely terrible parent that I am.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@rumdiary, the OH and I are teachers. Jnr and I finish school on 16th, so could do a week and be home on Christmas Eve. The OH is part time and her college (16-18 year olds) breaks up on 20th which is her day off, but she needs to be there on Monday 19th. Can you see how tempting it is to be a bad teacher and recommend to the OH to pull a sickie on that Monday? 16-18 year olds should be able to self study
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It looks as though this season will see all the optimists heading off to the Alps on 17th Dec for a (relatively inexpensive) pre-Christmas ski holiday. Having said that, the late arrival of the snow in the last two seasons means that, by the law of averages (and as every roulette player knows), this coming December will be nice and snowy  Seriously though, this will be our 11th consecutive Christmas in Saalbach, and, until the season before last, we more or less took it for granted that pre-Christmas conditions (3rd week of December) would be pretty good, with fresh snow and immaculately groomed, practically deserted pistes, as that had been our experience between 2007 and 2013 inclusive. We're now approaching it in the same vein as when we used to book an annual summer holiday in Scotland - most of the time the weather will be good or at least satisfactory, but every now and then it won't be, and this could happen two years running.
Just about all of the 'A'-level "pure maths and statistics" that I struggled with in my youth has now been forgotten in the mists of time. Can anyone enlighten us as to the statistical chances of there being little or now natural snow at Christmas for three consecutive years, assuming that it's been snowy for the previous seven years. (Incidentally, for the avoidance of doubt, I'm aware that the chances are the same this year as they were the year before, and the year before that).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Welcome to SHs, @famof4 
In addition to the good advice above I'd say DO book yourselves in for ski lessons (you can get advice about specific schools once you know where you're going). When snow is poor instructors will know where to find the best of it. In France, ski lessons are usually either in the morning or afternoon - not all day, leaving you plenty of time to ski together.
Some good places are more than an hour's drive from an airport.
As mentioned above, the last two Christmas holidays were not good for snow - so we're all reckoning that this year must be better. No scientific reason why it should be, but we can hope!
Generally speaking, snow down at valley level is not at all reliable at Christmas - you might need to choose between staying in a pretty, traditional, town then travelling up in lifts to the snow (and probably lifts down again) or being up rather higher, with snow more likely "on the doorstep" but probably a less authentic village (though some of the more recently developed places really aren't bad, and far from being concrete jungles).
For my kids, they wanted snow right outside the door so they could go and play and toboggan any time they wanted.
If you stay in a self catering apartment you can eat out as much as the budget allows - ski resorts are packed full of establishments desperate to sell you food and drink!
For shops, restaurants, ski school, lifts etc Christmas Day is like any other working day.
Easter is a bit late next year, but would be fine somewhere high altitude such as Val Thorens.
Be aware that availability of accommodation will be constrained by holiday dates - but because of the dates of Christmas the usual Sat/Sat (or occasionally Sun/Sun) changeovers may not apply this year.
Personally I think travelling on Christmas (and New Year's) Eve is fine, but each to his own.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@pam w, my only year of travelling to Serre Chevalier on Christmas Eve turned into a nightmare, so I've vowed never to do it again. Bad weather meant a detour via Gap, as the Lauteret was closed. Meant we arrived with very little supplies (and an already full car) very late on Christmas Eve when it was too late to attend our booked dinner, or shop for food. We would normally stop en route, but on this occasion 4 adults and dogs meant little spare room. We woke up on Christmas morning with not even a drop of milk for the tea (although that was quickly rectified). At least arriving on 23rd leaves a little leeway to enjoy the celebrations etc. So we'll be planning to be there on the 23rd this Christmas.
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| Quote: |
Generally speaking, snow down at valley level is not at all reliable at Christmas
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...having said that, even in the last two unusual seasons, all the pistes down to our village have been open in the week before Christmas, so it really does depend on where you go, and on how good the snow-making and piste preparation is.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
all the pistes down to our village have been open in the week before Christmas
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yes, ours too, but with a fair bit of man-made snow. Most apartments and chalets had little or no snow around. My grand-daughter enjoyed playing in the banks of natural snow behind the apartments, which get no sun. We bought big washing-baskets full of snow round for her to play with in the sun. The south-facing meadows around my apartment, at 1550m, were completely green.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Christmas Day 2015. She had a lovely time!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
We woke up on Christmas morning with not even a drop of milk for the tea
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 My motto is to avoid travelling on days when everybody else is travelling. Beyond that, I'm flexible!
I always have basic food supplies in my apartment, including long life milk, plenty of wine and beer, some basic and some nice tins, rice, pasta, orange juice, flour for bread, jam, whisky, gin and tonic etc etc etc. We could live for some days, if not very nutritiously, without shopping!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The last two years early season snow was better further east. Also, as pamW says, all day ski school is the norm in Austria but not elsewhere. I am not being an advocate for Austria, I haven't skied there for years. I thought Mayrhofen was a brilliant place to learn to ski. I loved St Anton. And the Silvretta Nova area was charming, and varied, but you needed a car. To be sure of snow in December you should probably consider Val Thorens in France, which is very high, but not close to Geneva. If it has to be Geneva, you could look at Villars in Switzerland, which is a family resort, and has quite a big terrain.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| hammerite wrote: |
| @rumdiary, the OH and I are teachers. Jnr and I finish school on 16th, so could do a week and be home on Christmas Eve. The OH is part time and her college (16-18 year olds) breaks up on 20th which is her day off, but she needs to be there on Monday 19th. Can you see how tempting it is to be a bad teacher and recommend to the OH to pull a sickie on that Monday? 16-18 year olds should be able to self study |
Not only can they self study they are very unlikely to be motivated on that day. Sicky all day long.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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oops, spelling for teachers. I mean sickie.
With 2 weeks to go of the school summer holiday left I am well in the mood for a Christmas ski break now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w, The biggest surprise, when we arrived in Saalbach on 19th December last year, was that our usual homeward piste, south-facing piste 52 was open and perfectly skiable, as were the south-facing nursery slopes, which lie at village level. The explanation for this, as we soon realised, is that, because the sun is low in the sky during the early winter, and the village lies in a fairly narrow valley with the huge bulk of the Schattberg ("Shadow Mountain") shading it from the sun on its southern side, the village and lower, south-facing slopes don't actually get any sun at all - not until later in January. For the same reason, the air temperature is invariably colder down in the village than higher up the mountain. This means that they can make and preserve the snow quite well at village altitude (1,000m) and right up to the point at which the south-facing slopes break out of the shadow - somewhere between 1300 and 1500m at a guess, at which point the higher altitude starts to play its part.
This should not really have been a surprise to me, since the locals always refer to the lower, southern side of the village as "the dark side", on account of the fact that it lies in the shadow of the Schattberg for much, if not most, of the winter.
I'd noticed several years ago from the temperatures shown on the live web-cams, and the live stream, which switches between upper and lower slopes, that early in the season it's often colder down in the valley than higher up. I suppose that I'd vaguely noted this and assumed that it was to do with cold air settling in the valley. However, at risk of sounding a little stupid, it wasn't until last season that the realisation struck me that the air temperature at different altitudes has more to do with the position of the sun in the sky and whether the slopes are shaded from the sun, than with the altitude. It may not be too much of an exaggeration to say that in December the snow is more reliable - certainly colder and firmer - on the shaded lower slopes and at village height (1,000m) than say at 1500m, where it can become soft under the sun later in the day - although the power of the sun is of course not too much of a problem early in the season.
It seems to follow from this that, instead of focusing purely on the altitude of a resort, those concerned about early winter snow conditions, and whether ski-in ski-out will be possible, should perhaps be more interested in the orientation of lower pistes and whether they are shaded or exposed to the sun. The proximity of high mountains to the south provides a guarantee that lower south-facing slopes will be protected from the sun, and that the snow, whether natural or artificial, will be easy to maintain.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yes, certainly altitude is by no means the only factor. Orientation is particularly crucial later in the season, for most places. The meadows in my photo above are south-facing and sunny. The other side of the mountain was white, not just ribbons of manmade, but all white; a complete contrast. Some resorts were "bussing" manmade snow up the mountain last season! It was far colder in the valleys overnight.
However, with little kids, sunny slopes are pretty nice! Slushy slopes and sunshine are infinitely preferable to shade and cold. Heading somewhere like Val Thorens risks your being out in very windy, bleak, conditions.
There's no guaranteed winning formula at any time of the year, especially at Christmas.
There's a lot to be said for last minute bookings for Christmas week; wait and see where the best conditions are, and be prepared to be flexible.
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@rumdiary, don't worry about spelling mistakes with me. I quite often make mistakes, especially when writing something on a forum. I was once called out for being a teacher and typing wear not where, I know the difference but have no idea why I wrote the former. The kids love spotting and correcting my mistakes too!
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| Quote: |
I was once called out for being a teacher and typing wear not where
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...as long as you don't type "your", instead of "you're" 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Tatman's Tours wrote: |
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I was once called out for being a teacher and typing wear not where
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...as long as you don't type "your", instead of "you're" |
Not by accident, sometimes on purpose. The kids love correcting my "mistakes", intentional or not. I make a big deal out of "of" and "have" too.
We're digressing I think!
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For Geneva, Avoriaz at 1800m or Flane at 1600m, should be a good bet for snow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The OP is looking for a "nice town".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megeve and St Gervais - which you are already looking at - are both nice towns and easy from Geneva. Combloux and La Clusaz also well worth looking at. None of them is anything approaching "snow sure" at resort level at Christmas and St Gervais would involve lifts up and down, even if snow cover is good. But that's not a disaster - lots of nice places involve travelling up to the snow in lifts (e.g. Mayrhofen, Courmayeur).
You could consider staying in Aosta (a real town, more so than any of those listed above) and using the lift up to ski in Pila. Aosta perfectly doable from Geneva, through the Mont Blanc tunnel, but better from Turin.
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| Quote: |
lots of nice places involve travelling up to the snow in lifts (e.g. Mayrhofen
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Ahhh, those "nostalgic" memories of scrumming for the Penken cable car at the beginning and end of the skiing day - that is, before I discovered the joys of ski-in ski-out and vowed always, or at least whenever and wherever possible, to avoid walking, bussing, taxiing, queuing and scrumming in order to get to and from the skiing. Why commute, when you don't have to? Each to his or her own though (before you all shoot me down in flames).
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You know it makes sense.
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| Tatman's Tours wrote: |
| The OP is looking for a "nice town". |
Avoriaz is a nice town, it just looks hideous 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@musher, To be fair, it's somewhat less hideous than Les Menuires and arguably several other purpose-built, French ski stations - probably still ranks in the top ten of hideous resorts though.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Avoriaz isn't a daft suggestion; we have some very positive reports of it as a family destination and it's one of the most snowsure destinations close to Geneva. It's very good to be able to allow kids the freedom that would be more difficult in a resort with busy road traffic (and there are plenty of those).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Avoriaz is fantastic for kids. It may look a bit odd (although there are worse looking resorts), but it's massively easy with kids. Step out the front door and you're on the slopes, close to Geneva for transfers and easy to self drive too. I've stayed in many lovely looking resorts, but, when going with small children, my preference is for anything that makes life a bit easier.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As ever, it depends on what you're comparing it with. I've skied through it many a time but would never stay there. Doorstep skiing can be found in much nicer places.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Doorstep traffic-free skiing at a pretty snowsure altitude? Easy drive from airport with big choice of flights from all parts of the UK?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@pam w, Exactly. Whatever you think of the looks of the place, it ticks a lot of boxes for convenience.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think that the two most ski-convenient and relatively attractive French resorts I've visited were St Martin de Belleville (1400m) and Vallandry (1650m), but there must be hundreds of others (here in Austria too). In both cases, we used to ski to and from the doorstep. Slightly lower than Avoriaz admittedly, but in these days of extensive snow-making, not so important. Also, in the case of Avoriaz, where do you go skiing - Champery, Chatel, Morzine - all low.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 23-08-16 15:20; edited 1 time in total
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I like Avoriaz architecture 
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@under a new name, So did the architect. That makes at least two of you. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't see any issue with getting a cable car up to snow, I think it needs a call on what you want from your holiday. Does ski in/out mean you are not walkable to restaurants & town centre as this is what the OP seems to want. For me St Gervais works as it is an easy drive from Geneva & only a short drive off motorway up to resort. Once in the town the ice rink, swimming pool & multiple restaurants are all walkable. it also shares the same ski area as Megeve without the expensive town prices but granted it is not snow sure.
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I really like St Gervais, though I usually visit in summer. However, there are loads of places which combine ski in/out and plenty of bars, restaurats and other facilities within easy walking distance.
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FAQ
