 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm fairly competent but only manage a long weekend of 4 1/2 days skiing each year. I come back every year with terrible thigh burn and sore knees. I suspect this is my technique as much as my fitness as I ski with friends less fit who do not suffer in the same way.
I am planning on getting a private or small group lesson on the first full day of my weekend ( in Les Gets) but would really appreciate any tips as to what I might be doing wrong.
Tia
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@hillyhilly, most probably bending more at the knees than you are flexing forward at the ankles. As a result your quad muscles are having to do a lot of work to hold you up. If you flex your ankles, knees and waist in broadly equal proportion your centre of mass will be more in line with your feet, so your thigh muscles don't have to work so hard to keep you upright. An instructor will quickly be able to give you feedback on your fore/aft balance, and should be able to help you be more balanced if you are too much "in the back seat".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@hillyhilly, A quick fix I use when I get lazy and into the backseat is to think, 'thigh high'. My thighs become more vertical and drives my heel down and back into the boot. Worth a try.
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Ever since adopting my mantra of 'ANKLES', I haven't had thigh burn, presumably because I am staying out of the back seat. Mostly. @rob@rar, I've tried 'CAKE' as an alternative mantra, as you suggested, but it really doesn't work as well. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Pedantica, 
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@Pedantica, you would have to explain your mantra a bit more Ankles doesn't really translate as well as Cake does
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Something I do is push my weight on the front (shin) of my boots. Then I know I'm pushing my weight forward and flexing the ankles. It really takes the strain off of the thighs too. I don't know if it's a recognised technique but it works for me.
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@hillyhilly, Something that exacerbated thigh burn for me was boots with too much forward lean. Even when standing up straight (out of my skis) they forced quads to work just to stop me falling over
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Would agree with above comments -- let the cuff of your boots take your weight, try this to get your hips, centre of mass over the balls of your feet -- that is about where you need to be -- (try thinking about Kate Winslett leaning out over the front of the Titantic 
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I had terrible thigh burn all the time, then i got a pair of fischer vacuum boots and it instantly went away. Must have just been the wrong angle my legs were at.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@red 27, I found the opposite, my boots adjust between 16 and 18 degrees of forward lean and even off piste I much prefer the 18 degree position with shims fitted.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| CharlieL wrote: |
| (try thinking about Kate Winslett leaning out over the front of the Titantic |
Is this a recognised technique for getting a good forward pelvic thrust?
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@red 27, in which case you're still in the wrong posture. Consider that if you half kneel, so your knees are at 90 degrees, you should be able to do that without any thigh burn...
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You know it makes sense.
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If your boots have too much forward lean for your natural stance your hips might drop backwards to compensate, resulting in quads having to do lots of work. It's the same reason why the advice to hold your arms up in front of you doesn't always work to help people ski with better fore/aft balance. You may instinctively drop your hips back slightly to counterbalance the extra weight you have in front of you.
I think the most effective way to fix being in the backseat is not to think about stance, but to focus on movement. Almost without fail the skiers I see who are clearly skiing with their balance on their heels, or further back, have a very static stance. Introduce some movement, focus on making that movement effective and their fore/aft balance will improve.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Way back when (1980's) the ESF instructor made us ski a couple of runs with our boots undone.
He said it was that 2 things would happen: One was that we would lose the overdependence of pushing too hard on the front of the boots, and the second was that we would appreciate the value of having a good position - nobody died.
I imagine this type of teaching is frowned upon these days, as it may encourage other bad habits / compensation, and some may consider sending a class down a red-run with thir boots undone a tad irresponsible, but as an excercise in teaching you not to lean to far into your boots it seemed an effective drill 30 years ago. When I did this in the 80's it was on 195s, but I tried it a couple years ago on my twin-tips when and it still felt ok.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@WindOfChange, nice one. I might give that a go, though on a reasonably gentle slope. What rob@rar said is very true too. There's a lot of joy to be had finding that stacked position and actually using gravity and motion rather than resisting them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In wore my brand new CEM fitted boots to a lesson at Hemel where I was made to undo the boots and ski. Was complemented on how well I skied with the buckles loose. Didn't have the heart to tell him that even with buckles undone they were still tighter and firmer than my old Slush and Rubble boots done up (that were 3 sizes bigger!)
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I had burning thighs the first week I had new skis. It turns out that the binding delta on the Look bindings on my new skis was 5mm compared to 2mm on my old Atomics which pitched me too far forward and out of balance. This meant my thigh muscles were always "switched on" and got tired very quickly.
A visit to see Andi at @CEM's Solutions4feet resulted in a 3mm shim fitted under the toe binding and no more burning thighs since. Have a look at this http://www.jonsskituning.co.uk/content/view/47/69/ on @spyderjon's site as well.
Obviously getting the right delta becomes more difficult with hired gear but at least you have some guidance from @spyderjon's site as to which brand of binding/ski might suit you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A safer way than skiing boots undone is to hop the tails of the skis off the ground. Now and then. Good for making you use ankles. One of Easiski's favourites. Simple but effective. And absolutely knackering done continuously round some turns on a gentle green slope.
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@jd_evans, This is a common cause of thighs burn that many people don't know about - even 1-2mm difference can really throw your balance. 5mm is a huge delta for everyday skiing; ithey must've been high performance slalom/race skis, yes?
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@ben76, not really, they're Dynastar Outland 80XTs with standard Look bindings. It was the change from the 2mm delta that the Atomic skis had to the 5mm the Dynastars have that made the difference. I was just pitched too far forward.
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I got terrible thigh burn last time I went skiing so was keen to read this thread. I'm not sure now if I lean forward, backwards, undo my boots or lean fowards and think of Kate Winslet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jd_evans, The delta is in the binding surely, not the ski? Guess Look just have a large fore/aft delta as standard.
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@ben76, yes it's the binding, I just rolled Atomic skis with Atomic binding into "Atomics" as that's what they came with.
The Dynastars have Look bindings, which I mentioned seperately as they're a different brand to the ski.
Have a look at @spyderjon's site, which I referenced in my 1st post for a list of deltas.
Cheers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Graham Warren wrote: |
| Something I do is push my weight on the front (shin) of my boots. Then I know I'm pushing my weight forward and flexing the ankles. It really takes the strain off of the thighs too. I don't know if it's a recognised technique but it works for me. |
Just be careful not to go "too" far forwards by ramming your weight onto the shin, think nice and centered rather than force the weight forwards.
Digs out this diagram I've used a fair few times recently...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A1/B1/C1 definitely thinking about Kate Winslet.
C2 is Kate Winslet.
Don't know who A3/B3 and C3 are thinking about (Leonardo DiCaprio?)
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You know it makes sense.
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Sorry to resurrect and old thread, but just got back from Les Arcs and we had a great trip .... except... for my thigh burn.
It drives me crazy, I can be skiing fine for a couple of hours and then it starts kicking in really badly. I know I probably need to take more lessons but I feel I'm an intermediate skier, and I have goodish form and I should be able to ski all day(ish).
It seems to hurt more on blue runs than red runs or black runs, or maybe I just get down them quicker and spend less time standing straight?
I've got Head Vector 110 boots, which I bought in 2010 whilst on a ski trip to Les Deux Alpes. I had them fitted there and went back a few times during the week to get the fit fine tuned and they fit me like a glove. I love them. A few times (after having a few drinks at a bar on the slopes) I have skied down to the next ski lift with them completely undone and only really noticed due to having a much looser flex and having to compensate.
But I'm wondering if the angle of the boot needs adjusting, and if this is the reason for the thigh burn? I'm quite tall 185cm and fairly heavy (currently 108kg). I can lose some of the weight, which will help, but not the height.
There is a shim down the back of the boot. Its currently near the top of the inner boot, just poking up above the hardshell, so was wondering how to reduce the angle with this shim? Do I move it further down the boot or higher to reduce the angle of my leg, or am I best just taking it out?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| @hillyhilly, most probably bending more at the knees than you are flexing forward at the ankles. As a result your quad muscles are having to do a lot of work to hold you up. If you flex your ankles, knees and waist in broadly equal proportion your centre of mass will be more in line with your feet, so your thigh muscles don't have to work so hard to keep you upright. An instructor will quickly be able to give you feedback on your fore/aft balance, and should be able to help you be more balanced if you are too much "in the back seat". |
I fully agree with Rob............ But here's an additional thought......... Your boots in all likelihood are too stiff and thusly not allowing you to adequately flex forward, so as Rob remarked, it's essentially all in your knees (and lower back). I've said for too many years.........., people are on way too stiff a boot and too short a ski.................
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Sack the Juggler, you know that people are going to suggest lessons, don't you. An intermediate skier who won't benefit from a couple of good lessons is a very rare animal..... You almost certainly have your weight too far back, especially on easy slopes where you feel relaxed and get into bad habits. My elderly knees let me know the instant I get it wrong but younger people with strong knees can ski permanently in the back seat.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@arcsinice, most people I see are in too soft a boot. Why are they on too short skis?
@Sack the Juggler, what @pam w said. Almost certainly your weight is spending too much time too far back and almost certainly technique not equipment. At your weight IMHO, a nominal stiffness of 110 is the minimum.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's not always a technique issue. A combination of excessive binding delta angle &/or boot zeppa angle &/or boot cuff forward lean will cause this.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| spyderjon wrote: |
| It's not always a technique issue. A combination of excessive binding delta angle &/or boot zeppa angle &/or boot cuff forward lean will cause this. |
I felt a bit if thigh burn last time out and it got me wondering as there was much talk of ramp & delta angles. I need to get the ruler out on my set ups to compare and contrast. That said the Marker Barons I was riding for 1/2 the week are apparently 'flat'. Maybe there is some variation in the boots?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Sack the Juggler, a day with Inside Out made a huge difference to me, I had the same issue. Also I had a spoiler (I think that is the term) in the back of the boot (the bit just below my calf) that effectively pushed me forwards, my reaction to that was to lean back. The combination of the two really fixed it, I now have drills for fixing my backseat that I can use on blues and reds, weirdly I don't have an issue on anything seriously steep because I concentrate on good technique and have a quite natural fear of getting spat out on my backside.
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Hi Everyone, thanks for the feedback.
@arcsinice with regard to the stiffness of the boots, I find them very flexible and with my weight I can easily flex them forwards. They are comfy leaning into them and I try to do this when I'm skiing long flattish blues, but ironically that's when I start to get thigh burn - on the "easy" stuff. I'm not sure about the too short in the ski thing - how will ski length affect my body position?
@pam w& @under a new name, I had a short lesson last year, from someone who I believe is very good, his main concern about my stance was my sideways angle to get a better edge on the turn, but he didn't feel I was to too far back in the seat (although maybe I was trying harder to avoid it during the lesson). When we have decided on next year's trip, I'll seek opinions on a good corrective coach at that location (I suspect we'll be going to Val Thorens).
@spyderjon & @AndAnotherThing.., I have no idea what my dangle or zappa should be  I'd like to pop over for a check, but I'm based on the Isle of Man. Maybe you could suggest a good bootfitter who is based at my next trip that can correct anything in my boot angles?
@Digger the dinosaur, I might just take that spoiler out during my next trip, see if it helps, but I also like the idea of using inside out for a week. We normally go skiing in that gap between the school holidays and easter holidays as its cheaper, but also because its quieter and less queues at the lifts. We also like using inghams as they have direct flights from the IOM to Geneva, but maybe for our next trip we should take two flights and visit inside out in Italy?
I'll email inside out and ask them about next year's schedule, but does anyone else provide a similar service?
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@Sack the Juggler, Book an appointment with Colin(CEM) and Andi at Solutions4Feet in Bicester for a full boot alignment/balancing analysis etc. At your stats your boots are definitely not to stiff but could well be too soft.
AndAnotherThing, never trust the marketing/spec blurb from manufacturers. IIRC, the Barons (& the other Tour models) measure out at 2mm delta for an alpine boot & 6mm for an AT boot. Lots of differences between the zeppa angles (the internal board/support in the base of the boot under the liner) and the forward lean of the cuff between different boots, even from the same manufacturer. If you happen to be sensitive to this (not everyone is) & you happen to have a combination of high delta, zeppa angle & forward lean then you're gonna struggle. And this is compounded the taller you are.
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@spyderjon, That's interesting. On the din soles on a Rossi rail system binding it's not a problem. It's with AT Soles that I noticed the difference. My suspicion is that the Barons were a bit worse than the new Radicals but that could be better fitness at altitude as the week went on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Must confess, 'cos I was taught to ski on anything, that all this angle stuff at lest seems a lot of balls. But there are some skis I like better than others...
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| Quote: |
Must confess, 'cos I was taught to ski on anything, that all this angle stuff at lest seems a lot of balls. But there are some skis I like better than others...
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I definitely feel it when I switch from flattish to ramped set ups and it takes a few runs to adjust. But then it's done. When you think of all the movements you need to make to balance CM over your feet while skiing, that adjustment seems very minor
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FAQ
Not sure it helps with thigh burn at all, but definitely puts a smile on your face 