A friend of mine would like to order an avalanche rucksack in the next 48 hours. Which type would you recommend and why?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I've had a ABS Vario for 5 years, its probably the most flexible in terms of pack size but not that light. You can easily swap the backpack size depending on the usage. Not recommended if you are flying into USA as the TSA will only allow empty cartridges/triggers, so you must know you can get one at your destination.
Mammut have two ranges, the head protecting Protection range and the more standard RAS range, both can now be swapped between suitable backpacks. Can use compressed air, so easier to get refilled than the ABS Nitrogen ones.
The new Scott Alpride systems using cartridges based on those used in airline life jackets have been getting good press.
The future is almost certainly battery powered fan units like the Black Diamond/Pieps Jetforce units (to be joined by Arcteryx next season), but these may have already sold out. No gas cartridge, so no airline hassle and multiple inflation's.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@PowderAdict, and the future depends on batteries in a cold environment? Fine when they are new, but when they get older? so not so sure.................
I use ortovox freerider ABS 24, I like the option of removing the mass unit, and use it in resort without sometimes, its a bit heavy but sits on hips well, and has a built in back protector. Really well made, better than my daughers BCA float 18.
Drawback is the cartridge as @PowderAdict, states when going to USA and it costs more to get it refilled.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Zorrac, the battery packs are Lithium, which have excellent cold temperature performance. The performance does reduce as the temperature falls, which explains the current large battery size on the JetForce packs. Give it couple of years, don't forget that cartridge airbags have had 20-25 years of development.
Also since you will be spending £30 a year replacing your ABS every year after test firing, by the time the batteries need replacing your will have saved a reasonable percentage of the replacement cost.
My main issue with the Jetforce packs is the poor pack design, otherwise I would have bought one. Nearly every other manufacturer has produced a swappable design, so you can match pack size to activity. The Jetforce are non-swappable, and also have no compression straps, so you would have to buy the biggest touring pack, and put up with a baggy pack. I appreciate that the Jetforce design must have much larger air panels than cartridge packs, to access air, but hopefully the Mk.II packs are better.
I tried a load of them in sport Schuster and was quite surprised how uncomfy some of them were, I definitely had a couple of favourites so I would say not to listen to the people who only tell you the ones they have bought and get him to try as many as possible
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geeo wrote:
I tried a load of them in sport Schuster and was quite surprised how uncomfy some of them were, I definitely had a couple of favourites so I would say not to listen to the people who only tell you the ones they have bought and get him to try as many as possible
This. Every winter I pop into Snell in Cham to try the new packs and still haven't bought one, primarily because I have yet to find a brand or size that fits me comfortably.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I don't have time to right a full answer now, but I had the same dilemma recently. In the end I went for the Mammut Ride On 30l as it matched my criteria the best, and I've been very happy with it. I'd buy the same again.
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geeo wrote:
I tried a load of them in sport Schuster and was quite surprised how uncomfy some of them were, I definitely had a couple of favourites so I would say not to listen to the people who only tell you the ones they have bought and get him to try as many as possible
For sure try many on and see what suits your upper body,
My Scott 40 litre Alpride is big, but I don't even notice it when skiing, it's sooooo comfy!
Fit? That partly comes down to how you pack your bag. I have a mate who somehow always loads his ABS so badly you can see it moving around. Part of the reason for going for the Scott was the side compression straps that mean you can pull it tight when it's nearly empty and balance it out when it's full. With some bags everything will sink to the bottom and bellow out, yet be empty at the top. Side compression straps are key in getting the bag to load well, and then sit and feel good on your back.
I can get my 40l compressed smaller than 25litre bags on a powder day, yet on a glacier day still be able to comfortably fit everything in.
Think about what and when your going to use it.
Even though ABS is now old technology, and soon to be outdated. It does work, and the availability of different zip ons might be a benefit to aid flexibility, especially if you suffer bag packing dyslexia.
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There is a good current review below of 10 packs. It is in German, but if you use Chrome or similar it will auto translate to your preferred language.
I'd echo trying them on as being pretty important. I found the ABS packs felt too tall (even small), and ended up liking the Ortovox freerider and Mammut RAS bags the best. The Mammut bag got the nod in the end on cost grounds, but the ortovox bag was really comfy.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Love my ortovox 24 abs. dont notice it on and it never ever moves around. only thing id say is there really is little room left once your shovel/probe/mid layer/fa kit and light snack and drink is in there. If your touring youd need bigger
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Considering I'm in process of getting one for myself too, I'm interested in some stuff here too. Everyone are talking about fit of backpacks, but what about systems itself or manufacturers of airbag systems?
What I managed to gather till now. Quite few friends said few bad things about Mammut, and when you think this way, it's quite true. It basically pushes your hands back, so once you are buried you have less chances to free some space from front of your head. On top of that it makes your line of sight much more narrow, so your chances to ski out of avalanche are smaller. On the other hand it does add some trauma protection.
ABS - probably most used and popular, and their modular system sounds really great. Having two independent airbags is big plus in case of puncture/problems (how often would this be case anyway?) On the other side, some people said position of airbags sort of moves you forward with face down.
Pieps/Black Diamond - probably best option as far as safety goes, especially since it's suppose to automatically discharge after 3mins, and gives you some extra air bubble if buried. On the other side, I don't really like battery idea. I'm really not sure if I trust batteries enough to have my safety rely on some batteries, which were out at -20c for few hours before that.... for few years. Not to mention currently price is still really high (at least around here).
BCA - by far best price (at least around here), no problems with recharging cartridges, should be easy to fly with (not that this would be most important factor for me, as I doubt I will go with it on plane more then once). Sort of same airbag position as Pieps/BD (is that good or bad... noone really tells for sure).
Now if anyone went more into details of these systems, and has some suggestions what to get system vise, I would appreciate few extra infos. Backpack comfort is something what depends on certain user, and is useless to discuss, as something what fits me, won't fit you and vice versa.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Mammut RAS
Why ?
1) Nice solid packs (arguably more durable than BCA models)
2) One of the lightest on the market (slightly lighter than black diamond Jet Force)
3) 25 or 30L option
4) Can be used with refillable or carbon cartridges (if desired)
I chose the Snowpulse system as I liked the head up principal as I rarely wear a helmet (shock/horror). It's very comfy, light enough and big enough (30ltr) for all the kit I would ever take. The price was also good! After 3 years it still looks great. Not sure if they still make them?
In my opinion the Mammut ones have always looked horrible, they are like big squares stuck on your back sticking out. And they definitely have a smaller carrying capacity than their stated size. e.g my friends 30l barely holds enough for a small ski tour.
I went for a Scott Alpride bag as its the lightest system currently available. As mentioned battery packs could be the future, if they can get the weight down and sort out wiring glitches.
The new BCA packs looks good actually, and they are a fair price.
As for air hole pockets when buried? Isn't an airbag supposed to help you float and stay above? I know it could well happen that your buried with an airbag if the slide is big enough, but at that state the truama could have caused worse damaged to you.
As for air hole pockets when buried? Isn't an airbag supposed to help you float and stay above? I know it could well happen that your buried with an airbag if the slide is big enough, but at that state the truama could have caused worse damaged to you.
yes - some of these "benefits" do seem like 1 in a million scenarios. for the air hole pocket to be useful you:
1. need to get caught in an avalanche (quite unlikely)
2. deploy the airbag (hopefully reasonably likely but not a given)
3. get buried despite deploying the airbag (quite unlikely)
4. not get killed by trauma (quite unlikely if the avalanche is big enough to bury you)
etc
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Arno, I think the degree of differentiation between the gas cannister based products is still pretty small. I'd still argue for buying on price and fit rather than anything else. Clearly the battery pack/fan version is going to disrupt that somewhat but, frankly, someone else can be the smoking beagle for that until we're sure whether it works or not. There are one or two "battery unreliable in the cold" stories circulating online. Not saying it isn't the future but I'd want to make sure they were all the way there before I bought one.
@gorilla, agreed. I'd like something a bit lighter than my old Snowpulse Lifebag, but there's nothing out there that seems so much better that its worth spanking another £500+ for a replacement
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I went for Mammut RAS, got the smaller 18L pack for everyday skiing and it surprisingly fits quite a lot of stuff, enough for a short tour with same afternoon return. It's lightweight and has a low profile so I don't need to take it off on chairlifts in resort. I haven't been on long tours but I guess if I go and need a bigger pack I will rent. I liked the way Orthovox ABS looked, but after trying one on I didn't quite like it as much. Too heavy and sticks out quite a bit. Probably good for big tours but didn't appeal to have one on my back every day.
After all it is free
After all it is free
OliC wrote:
In my opinion the Mammut ones have always looked horrible, they are like big squares stuck on your back sticking out. And they definitely have a smaller carrying capacity than their stated size. e.g my friends 30l barely holds enough for a small ski tour.
Seriously? Which pack is he using? An old one?
I have a 30l and can fit a poo-poo tonne of stuff in it - avi kit, skins, extra layer, screwdrivers, camera case, different goggle lenses, sunglasses, food, water, gopro backmount system, compass, knife, skin wax, climbing skin, carabiners, knife, etc etc with room to spare. I'd have no problem fitting a rope & pulley (or crampons etc) in too if I was touring on a glacier.
How much does your mate carry on a day tour?!
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@Arno, I just got a carbon canister as part of the ABS recall. I'm surprised by how much lighter it feels, even though it is only 250g or so off the back. Probably about balance as much as weight. But it really isn't worth forking out for a new bag over marginal weight reductions. I bought my ABS in 2010. It has done about 150 days since and is still in close to new condition, other than one broken clip on the hip belt. I replaced the crotch strap with something more robust as well, modelled on a DIR diving harness strap.
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@PowderAdict,
Quote:
The future is almost certainly battery powered fan units like the Black Diamond/Pieps Jetforce units (to be joined by Arcteryx next season), but these may have already sold out. No gas cartridge, so no airline hassle and multiple inflation's.
It has taken many years of research and development on the gas cylinder systems, and there are still developments happening.
Arcteryx have no approvals yet and their launch date is penciled in for 2017, not next season.
So far I have not heard about flying with these battery powered bags, if any one has let me know, they do not meet the regulations as they currently stand with the IATA, neither does the Scot Alpride as it has two cylinders.
Whatever happens over the next few years will be interesting, and we should remember that the battery powered bags were developed due to the regulations in the USA about flying with cylinders, they are curently a pretty poor pack design and have little or no weight saving over the standard systems.
I think the development now will be with super light versions of the packs, Mammut have one for next season thats sub 1.5kg with the airbag but excluding cylinder so still well under 2kg with a carbon !
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livetoski wrote:
I think the development now will be with super light versions of the packs, Mammut have one for next season thats sub 1.5kg with the airbag but excluding cylinder so still well under 2kg with a carbon !
this might grab my attention if it's a decently specced bag
mind you, part of the reason why my old snowpulse weighs as much as it does is that it is made from fairly bomb-proof material
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
So far I have not heard about flying with these battery powered bags, if any one has let me know, they do not meet the regulations as they currently stand with the IATA, neither does the Scot Alpride as it has two cylinders.
Point taken with the IATA guidelines and the Scott. But surely the dangerous goods regulations covers the presence of the cylinder and the explosive trigger (in the case of ABS)? Withe the battery in the Jetforce being below 100Wh, I thought it would not be caught by the dangerous goods regs on batteries?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Black Diamond Pilot 11 seems to be available shortly in the UK. Weight is apparently 3.2 kg. I use the BCA Float 22 currently. BCA 22 weight is apparently 2.64 kg including full cylinder. Have I got this wrong? Black Diamond Pack is heavier even with about half the pack size?
Quite liked the multi use features but unsure if is heavier as find the BCA heavy enough.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Arno wrote:
3. get buried despite deploying the airbag (quite unlikely)
Maybe not all that unlikely ;)
http://youtube.com/v/H3jDr2fRXsQ
Pretty much everyone are telling those numbers ABS, BCA etc. are giving around are way too high, marketing only, and not proven by anything. On the other side, I still use ABS... if it gives me just 1% chance more to survive when shi**t hits the fan, I still rather take that 1% then nothing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
OliC wrote:
geeo wrote:
I tried a load of them in sport Schuster and was quite surprised how uncomfy some of them were, I definitely had a couple of favourites so I would say not to listen to the people who only tell you the ones they have bought and get him to try as many as possible
For sure try many on and see what suits your upper body,
My Scott 40 litre Alpride is big, but I don't even notice it when skiing, it's sooooo comfy!
Fit? That partly comes down to how you pack your bag. I have a mate who somehow always loads his ABS so badly you can see it moving around. Part of the reason for going for the Scott was the side compression straps that mean you can pull it tight when it's nearly empty and balance it out when it's full. With some bags everything will sink to the bottom and bellow out, yet be empty at the top. Side compression straps are key in getting the bag to load well, and then sit and feel good on your back.
I can get my 40l compressed smaller than 25litre bags on a powder day, yet on a glacier day still be able to comfortably fit everything in.
Think about what and when your going to use it.
Even though ABS is now old technology, and soon to be outdated. It does work, and the availability of different zip ons might be a benefit to aid flexibility, especially if you suffer bag packing dyslexia.
@OliC
I've seen you singing the praises of the Alpride 40.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
and get him to try as many as possible
