 Poster: A snowHead
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Last week in the 3 Vallees, on our first ride of the holiday up the mountain, we shared a gondola with an ESF instructor and his 2 pupils. During the course of the journey, it became apparent that the instructor was a native English speaker (Scottish in fact) and his pupils were American. Not having seen the weather forecast that day, when we got out of the lift at the top of the mountain (and it being quite windy) I politely asked the instructor whether he'd seen the forecast and whether there was a risk of the 3 Vallees links being closed later. He replied quite brusquely with words to the effect that there was a board at the bottom of the mountain showing the weather forecast. So that was me told! Then, as he skied away with his pupils, he said (to them) "You know, when you're wearing one of these jackets, people think that they have the right to speak to you and ask you anything they choose...."
IMO, this was a totally unreasonable - if not total wonker's - response. My view is that anyone - in any walk of life and in whatever capacity - does indeed have the right to politely speak to any fellow human being. I think that such a snotty response was totally uncalled for and would have expected better from someone who I would regard as an ambassador for snow sports. I could perhaps have understood his tone and reply if I had been asking him to come round and cook our evening meal our clean our apartment, but not for simply asking if he'd seen a weather forecast for God's sake!
Out of order in my view - but maybe it was me who was (unwittingly, I assure you) out of order  .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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mountainaddict, I think I saw the guy teaching last weekend, unless there is more than one Scottish ESF instructor in the 3V (which is quite possible). I stopped and listened to his lesson for a while !
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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mountainaddict, agreed, total wonker.
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Now there's a man who has his clients provided to him. If you'd have asked someone from New Gen, Marmalade etc you'd probably have got a full weather report, recommendations for runs to take, a smile and a cheery wave goodbye.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I thought this was going to be a thread that was tautological - shirley to be an ESF instructor you have to have a bit of an attitude problem to mere mortals given that even God eyes your red jacket with awe?
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Hope he failed!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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mountainaddict,
Surley the thread title is incorrect? Shouldn't it read 'Scottish instructor's attitude problem' 
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stewart woodward,
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stewart woodward, Aye, as T Bar there's carnaptious plonkers in all walks of life and in all countries. I suspect I too would be an even grumpier old git if I had to work in France.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I tend to view instructors and uniformed folks on the mountain as probably the 'local experts' or at least possessing of a darn sight more knowledge of their local mountain than I. I wouldn't do anything to disrupt their 'lesson giving', but if I needed to know something and thought the brief enquiry would not interfere with what they were doing and there wasn't another way of finding out I would probably ask. Conversely I think instructors and uniformed folks on the mountain must be aware of the fact that they are probably held a little in awe by 'mere mortals' if they can't cope with the attention they get, maybe they should get a non-uniformed job. That said many of those I've seen take their role in good part. In Les Arcs there was nice older ESF chap who always used to give me a nod when I waited for our instructors, and it was an ESF instructor that paused his class of kids to make sure I was OK when I did in my ankle in VT a couple of years back.
N.B. I often wonder if I alone in that, when I ski past a class with an instructor at the front, esp. if its a class of snow-ploughers, I make an extra effort to ski well! 
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mountainaddict, yup, a total wonker, with an a
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Surely the thread title is incorrect? Shouldn't it read 'Scottish instructor's attitude problem'
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No, 'cos he was working for the ESF. Your alternative title may have incorrectly implied that he was one of the helpful staff of Cairngorm, Glencoe etc.
I must stress that I have had no previous problems with either ESF staff or Scots folk in general - I was only making the point that he was an English speaker who works for the ESF and who happens to be a Scot. Maybe I was half-hoping that there can't be many Scots folk working for the ESF in the 3Vs, that he would be recognised by someone reading this thread and that that someone would mention it to him.....ie 'ave a word' so to speak.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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He was just in a bad mood, I guess. When I've occasionally asked instructors (not ones I'm with) questions about weather etc (or on one occasion, in a total white out, where the hell I needed to point my skis to find the lift which would get me home) I've had helpful and polite replies. Nothing to do with ESF - just an individual.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w,
Don't agree, the Jock think's he is some kind of Demi-God because he is wearing the ESF jacket. His comments to his clients endorse this IMO.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kel, you mean he'd be a real nice regular guy wearing some other jacket? I don't think so. It's not compulsory to be rude to people just because you wear an ESF jacket. As I know for a fact, having had polite and helpful replies from chaps in red jackets. Indeed without one such, who spotted and picked up the key to a hired car, took the trouble to ring the company in Geneva and leave his mobile number, so I could subsequently meet him to pick it up, one of our guests would have been in a right hole. Really nice guy - I'm sure he could ski like a God, but he didn't give himself the airs and graces of one.
Being a Scot is, sadly, not a complete guarantee that you're not also a wonker. Sad to relate, there are also some Welsh wonkers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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plenty of english ones too, but that goes without saying. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Kel, you mean he'd be a real nice regular guy wearing some other jacket? . |
Not at all. What I implied is this guy thought he is was some kind of Demi-God and his own words to his clients and the reference to his jacket would give this impression.
David Coulthard, Jackie Stewart and the great late Colin McCrae, all of them Scottish, all of them were at the pinical of motor racing and all of them fantastic ambassador's for their sport without an ounce of attitude.
It's not a Scotch,Welsh, English or even French thing being discussed here, it is this one particular guy who happens to be Scotch.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Kel, I can see where you're coming from too.
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| Quote: |
Really, the OP started the conversation in the wrong way. Instead of asking a direct question "What's the weather like?"; approach it in a roundabout way " great/bad day for skiing, snow looks fab/crap, don't you think?"
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Why? The instructor is clearly a dick. As well as teaching people to ski, an instructor should be an ambassador for both the sport and the resort - making sure as many guests have an ace holiday as possible, regardless of whether they're with your group/ski school, will benefit, and is in the best interests of, all resort workers (and of course the guests )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
an instructor should be an ambassador for both the sport and the resort
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yes, and I think (in my limited experience) that the ESF do take that quite seriously. I suspect an ESF instructor who was rude to someone who subsequently complained would be sharply reminded of that role. They dutifully appear to do their regular torchlit descents etc which must be a right pain in the @rse after a day's work. On one occasion last year the rather elderly drag lift which brings them up the nursery slope after they've done their torchlit descent broke down, and the last little batch had to walk up. They didn't look too happy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| mountainaddict wrote: |
| Last week in the 3 Vallees, on our first ride of the holiday up the mountain, we shared a gondola with an ESF instructor and his 2 pupils. During the course of the journey, it became apparent that the instructor was a native English speaker (Scottish in fact) and his pupils were American. Not having seen the weather forecast that day, when we got out of the lift at the top of the mountain (and it being quite windy) I politely asked the instructor whether he'd seen the forecast and whether there was a risk of the 3 Vallees links being closed later. He replied quite brusquely with words to the effect that there was a board at the bottom of the mountain showing the weather forecast. So that was me told! Then, as he skied away with his pupils, he said (to them) "You know, when you're wearing one of these jackets, people think that they have the right to speak to you and ask you anything they choose...." |
Or
| but maybe mountainaddict could have wrote: |
Last week in the 3 Vallees, on our first ride of the holiday up the mountain, we shared a gondola with an ESF instructor who was a native English speaker. Not having seen the weather forecast that day, when we got out of the lift at the top of the mountain, even though the weather was bad and the instructor was, of course, looking out for the safety of his own group, I decided that, as he was wearing an instructor’s jacket, I had the right to butt in, so I did. “Have you seen the forecast” I asked, followed by more questions regarding the likelihood of various links being closed later. He kindly interrupted his session for a moment to inform me where the weather forecast was posted, after which he continued with the job for which he was employed and for which the group had paid.
Even though it was very windy, and consequently I had difficulties in hearing, I think I heard a comment to the effect that, when he was wearing his uniform, some rude people think they have the right to interrupt his session to discuss anything that has just popped into their head.
Right (said I to myself) time for a Pandora generalising the attitudes of the tens of thousands of people earning their living by working for the ESF and, at the same time, anyone else working for any other ski schools who provide their teachers with red jackets. Grrrrrr  .
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wayne, OP (well not that I can see) hasn't made a generalisation about ESF instructors, he just mentions the prat in question. If anything, the instructor himself has generalised by saying what he said
"You know, when you're wearing one of these jackets, people think that they have the right to speak to you and ask you anything they choose...."
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Dr John,
I was embarrased when a friend of mine asked a New Gen guy for some tips in a toilet queue. Not the done thing but the guy "gave him the best lesson he had ever had" within 3 mins. All with a smile
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You know it makes sense.
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Mike3000,
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Mike3000, now that's just taking the p1ss
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne,
I usually find your posts helpful and informative but I'm afraid you've just got that one horribly wrong. The instructor could easily have been polite and replied that either he hadn't seen the forecast or that, in such changeable conditions, the best info was to be found on the board. His response belies an arrogance which many (although not you, it seems) find distasteful in a professional
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ha ha
I think I know who this is, and if so he can be a right grumpy git whether wearing a red jacket or not, in France or Scotland, in the pub or with a hangover. Its not about the colour jacket it's life that gets to him. Or it could of been someone else having a bad day....
Some people are just grumpy right, whatever job they choose?
BTW - plenty of ESF instructors do have mostly their own private repeat clients (especially native english speaking ones in 3V) - clients book with them direct and they just give the ESF a % of their earnings. To be 'grumped at' costs extra!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wayne, he is an ambassador for his ski school and your profession. As the story is related to us he failed totally. There can be a polite way of saying "sorry I can't help". It is back to the old joke about the difference between God and a Ski Instructor isn't it?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Red Leon, +1
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ESF jacket or not, as a decent human being there was no need to be such a tit.
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I'd have greatly enjoyed taking a trip to the local ESF office and having a nice little chat about one of their instructors who clearly doesn't want the responsibility and respect that comes from that jacket. It's not like they'd be hard to identify.
I'd have then asked to book a day's lessons with that instructor, along with my mates, and made it a complete living hell. If he thinks skiing around on a mountain shouting "up, down, up, down" at students is a hard life and that wearing the jacket is clearly too much responsibility for him, he can do something else for a living. And he clearly should.
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| Quote: |
I was embarrased when a friend of mine asked a New Gen guy for some tips in a toilet queue.
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I don't think I'd have the nerve to try that!
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Many of the ESF instructors here are friendly polite, and couldn't give a toss what your nationality is, they speak to us at lunchtime, (we've never had a lesson here from any of them), and chat in the bar in the evenings. One or two are complete tossers,and hate foreigners, but we could say that about some of the population of any British location too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Wayne,
I usually find your posts helpful and informative but I'm afraid you've just got that one horribly wrong. The instructor could easily have been polite and replied that either he hadn't seen the forecast or that, in such changeable conditions, the best info was to be found on the board. His response belies an arrogance which many (although not you, it seems) find distasteful in a professional.
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Red Leon:Ta for the above. I agree and could easily have:
a. Taken exception to Wayne's response to me, as the OP. (I must stress that I did not 'interrupt his lesson' - I simply asked a polite question as he was clipping into his bindings.)
b. Tarred Wayne with the same brush as our ESF Scot - ie resort worker and ambassador for the sport with attitude problem.
I maybe should have added in the OP that, during the gondola ride, the instructor in question seemed quite happy to respond quite lengthily to a French couple who asked him I don't know what (my French isn't good enough) - but maybe he was also including them in his rude response as he skied away?
To take the issue a bit further, picture the following scene: You are an office worker, going about your usual job. You are passing through the reception area, perhaps with a colleague. A member of the public (or customer or whatever) comes in and asks "Excuse me, can you tell me if this is where I can find Joe Bloggs? You tell them but mutter as you walk away"Just because I work here they think they have the right to ask me anything they choose?!!".....Now would that be likely to happen? Thought not - you are an ambassador for your employer and wouldn't behave like that, no matter what sort of cr@p day you were having.
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Hang on a mo.
This season I have lost count (well never tried really) of the times I have been asked "can you tell me the way to", "will it snow later", "have seen ....", etc,
and even on a few times "could you watch this and tell me if it's OK", "is this how you ....", etc.
OK I don't have a red jacket, it's blue over here, also must admit that no English person has (this season) asked me any of the above, in English. Although sometimes in French (  ) and many times in a sort of Spanish (  ). It's always Italians and the reason is obvious, they know they will get an answer in a language they can understand.
I have had classes interrupted by people skiing into the centre to ask their question - shed loads of times. I dread getting into a cable car with someone holding a piste map now. Not as I'm a grumpy old git (some may disagree though ) but as it happens sooooooo often.
But (try and pull it back) like most ski instructor we don't mind answering questions in fact I can't remember the last time I didn't, even when the bod just assumed they could interrupt my class, me telling the group where to meet, me getting out of a cable car and looking for my group, etc, etc, etc
My point was that there are always 2 sides to a Pandora and I am extremely suspicious of anyone who decides that they will just slag off someone on the web - coz they can and it's fun. I don't know how many Scottish instructors there are working for the ESF in the 3V’s but it can’t that many and it cant be that hard to work out who it is the OP is referring to, so yes it becomes a personal attack on someone who most likely doesn’t even know it’s going on. Oh well at least it’s fun and bumps up the post count but, as I said, hang on a mo.....
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