 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi snowheads,
I have a query regarding keeping my weight forward and pressuring my shins. I find on easier pistes such as blues I can keep my shins pressured against the tounges and push my shin through for great grip / edging. My issue comes with steeper slopes (reds and blacks) when on these I struggle to keep my shins pressed against the tounges in the boots consequently I don't have as much grip and my turns tend to skid more. I find I tend to do larger leg extensions to try and retain some control. I am quite good at keeping my arms forward and don't necessarily feel in the backseat as the pressure is on my arches. I am using fairly soft boots done up quite tightly. Is this normal? What exercises can I do to improve? Do I need stiffer boots? I tend to ski either centre mounted park skis or atomic cheater gs skis depending on how bumpy the piste is.
Apologies I don't have any videos of myself skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@calh27, Welcome to snowHeads!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Welcome!
Maybe it is your shoulder angles relative to the slope? Are you taking wider slower turns on the steeper runs?
Really you want your shoulders pretty much facing down the hill as your legs are doing the turning. If you are doing wider slower turns, and facing more across the hill with your shoulders, I find it can be harder to keep pushing your upper body through the turn, and so it's harder to get the weight forward
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@calh27, you want to be thinking more about standing centrally with the weight over your fore foot rather than forcing pressure into your shins.
I would guess that skidding your turns has more to do with one or combination of 3 things.
1. if you are pushing your tails of the skis out early in the turn
2. the pressure you are or are not applying to the outside ski
3. how you are using the ski edges
I think someone said that this graphic was designed to show boot stiffness, but I think the graphic is useful to show a good stance that doesn't have excessive forward lean.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There is no one way of sorting this as everyone is bio-mechanically different, that said modern training suggests Driving the ski with the shins is a bit of a myth, I would suggest the following for steeps:
1/ drop body lower through flexing the knees - lowers your centre of gravity making you more stable
2/ As you drop lower a confident pole plant just prior to turn helps get your weight forwards
3/ weighting outside ski edge earlier in the turn - about 70% of weighting
4/ pressure on inside ski edge - about 30% of weighting. Engaging both edges brings the skis around quicker
5/ when skiing steep, the increased acceleration into the turn can throw your balance backwards, use core muscles to hold upper body weight over balls of feet are brought the turn
6/ practice javelin turns on blues - rinse, repeat. Spend an hour everyday doing these when in resort, it's the foundation drill the Austrian ski team use and the main drill I use for race training. Javlins get you using your edges to turn and help you with optimising balance, cos if your not balanced you can't do the drill
Hope this helps
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I'm no expert at all, but I can share and sympathise with the OP's problem. In my case it's really shown up with a new pair of boots which I haven't fully got set up right yet: not sure what % is the boots and what me just being a lousy skier  .
However, I found that once I got the boots done up so that they felt 'right' (i.e. nicely tight) in the ankle and calf/shin/cuff area (+ or - the velcro strap at varying tightnesses: still trying to decide on that, plus going to try with some Booster Straps as it's a low shell and high cuff) then everyting worked wonderfully - but as soon as they were 'sloppy' in feel, over-warmed/worked, etc, (and my feet getting warm and moist) it all went horribly wrong, especially when steeper and when on less than perfectly-groomed terrain. It didn't matter what body position or which varying attempt to get weight onto the tongues: it just would not work until the boots were suitably tightened up in their differeing places. Personally, I hate boots which aren't a tight touch or 'feel' all over, but do suffer from fitting problems (narrow heel, narrow ankle/calf area etc) - though I know that others can ski in boots hardly done up at all (that's experience adn technique too, I guess).
So I'm sure that technique has a lot to do with it, but IMHO the boots (cant, flex, lean, cuff/calf movement & space, buckle/velcro strap placing and tightness, etc, etc) will make an awful lot of diference too. But what suits one may not suit another, boot design and fit being what it is.
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@Grizzler, I hate to say it but you can ski respectfully well with your boots completely undone. It's hard, you need good basic technique but it's surprising what you can do with boots completely undone....
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| kitenski wrote: |
| @Grizzler, I hate to say it but you can ski respectfully well with your boots completely undone. It's hard, you need good basic technique but it's surprising what you can do with boots completely undone.... |
Which I think shows that flexing the boot through the shin is more about maintaining a forward range of movement in the ankle than driving the skis through fwd pressure, and that balance centred through the feet does allow the skis to work effectively. Doing the boots up again provides more support, much appreciated in tricky snow, and enables higher performance. Skiing out of balance with boots done up tight may be relying on that support as a crutch, but also a sloppy boot fit won't work in harmony with the ankle, encouraging tighter and tighter clipping to find support.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@calh27, most likely you aren't moving your weight forward enough going into the turn as the hill steepens. Once the weight is back it is very hard to get the ankle/boot flex you are finding helpful on flatter terrain.
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Skiing on nordique skis is like skiing with boots completely undone, with the added complications that the skis aren't much more than an inch wide and have no metal edges. The simplest turn becomes a challenge.
I was trying (and mostly failing) to do some one foot exercises yesterday. I commented to the instructor that I could do them on alpine skis. "Les chaussures pardonnent" was her comment.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The other complication, of course is that you are only attached to the ski at the toe. So if your balance is too far forward you fall!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@pam w, hence the telemark stance 
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| balernoStu wrote: |
| @calh27, most likely you aren't moving your weight forward enough going into the turn as the hill steepens. |
Hopefully not an entirely stupid question (though please forgive my utter incompetance as a skier, clearly) - I can find many ways of getting my "weight forward", but am never really sure which is the right one, or if it varies according to terrain or if a combination of techniques is right. Also, what exactly is "forward" (I assume weight still central through foot arch to balls?). I can bend the knees forwards (weight onto shins/tongues), bend at the waist and/or hips to bring entire body forward, extend the arms and hands forward and out, flatten the back, make most of the forward 'lean' and shin pressure with ankle flex whilst staying quite loosely-upright in the rest of leg and body - and so on. I can keep my weight through the central foot, and indeed can achieve some degree of boot tongue pressure, but the rest of my body can be in all sorts of places (or at different relative angles) and still achieve it...
I've also seen varying drawings and explanations as to exactly where one wants one's weight (wich is great if your arm, shoulder, hip, bum and foot dimensions and relative proportions all fit so easily into the given drawings... and boots
I can feel when it's right, but I can't always make it happen; especailly if bumpy terrain has thrown my weight backwards, and then maybe a minor foot slip in the boots as well.
So, in the context of the OP's issues (and mine), as the hill steepens, what's the easiest way of explaining how to get the weight forward, and where does one think of it as happening from (or where physicallydoes it happen from)? Something which I've never satisfactorily been able to get someone to explain to me in person, despite paying for several private instructors just to as them that exact question.
Thanks.
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You know it makes sense.
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I think the "weight forward" phrase can cause some confusion. The point that balernoStu made (I'm sure) was ensuring that the weight moved forward at the start of the turn in order that the skier is reasonably well centred fore/aft. If the balance is too far forward, leaning excessively on the front of the boots for example, the tails of the skis can easily breakaway/skid out at the end of the turn. Equally, if the balance is too far back the tips of the ski will not engage with the snow as effectively as you would like and the start of the turn won't be as crisp.
@Grizzler, in order to maintain a range of extension/flexion movement (up & down) without dropping too far forward or back you need all three of your principal joints to work broadly in proportion with each other: ankles, knees & waist. If any one of these joints flexes proportionately more than the other two you are likely to be out of fore/aft balance. You are constantly making changes to your lateral and fore/aft balance, from turn to turn and within each turn. I think it's impossible to specify exactly what part of your body needs to be in what position above your skis at each and every point of a run. Focus on making effective movements and your body will most probably look after the rest...
It is important to remember that skiing is a dynamic sport, in a constantly changing environment. Rather than thinking about a balanced position I prefer to think about the movements that I need to make to stay in dynamic balance in this constantly changing environment. If I try to find a fixed, well-balanced position I ski very stiffly and often a little bit in the back seat.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What are Javelin turns?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
I failed miserably to get to grips with the "pas tournant" this morning, tending to revert to my fallback snowplough (the opposite) so am going to have to keep trying. To succeed I have to keep balanced on the whole foot, all the time. We'll see. I hope that this work in ski nordique will also help my alpine skiing. I can still remember easiski yelling at me not to snowplough.  |
Not sure about that as Mike Dixon (ex GB biathlon & Eurosport analyser) frequently states that this or that racer's alpine skiing background helps with their turning stability
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The local ski club kids spend a fair bit of time on xc skis. The instructors say it does a lot for their balance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I think the "weight forward" phrase can cause some confusion. The point that balernoStu made (I'm sure) was ensuring that the weight moved forward at the start of the turn in order that the skier is reasonably well centred fore/aft. |
Yes, exactly. Some interesting dynamics mean you have to move forward into each turn to find centred balance on the skis.
A home exercise on moving forward effectively...
Sit on a low stool with ankles directly below knees, then get up and walk forward. It may require a slightly awkward lean of the body. Second time drag the heels well back under the stool and push through the feet to rise. I expect this to feel stronger. Likewise each turn should start from the foot rather than a body lean, and some ankle flex helps to get it started.
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@pam w, no edges on the xc skis? They're lethal !
I reckon some time on xc (or even telemark) will help with balance. Conversely the xc racer with alpine experience probably spent a lot more time working on turns than other xc racers, so has an advantage in that area.
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| balernoStu wrote: |
| Sit on a low stool with ankles directly below knees, then get up and walk forward. It may require a slightly awkward lean of the body. Second time drag the heels well back under the stool and push through the feet to rise. I expect this to feel stronger. Likewise each turn should start from the foot rather than a body lean, and some ankle flex helps to get it started. |
Nice, I like that. This season in my skiing I've been sometimes working on ensuring my inside foot does not get too far forward, but actively pulling it underneath me (often accompanied by being very light on my inside half). This means that when I stand on that foot as it becomes the new outside ski it is well centred underneath me.
@Mike Pow, nice clear video. Makes the point well.
Developing awareness of where you are balanced fore/aft can be helpful. Some things that we do are a little bit of boot-skiing, which is very sensitive to fore/aft balance, or, while stationary on the flat, rocking back and fore with your eyes closed until you feel equal pressure along the length of your foot.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| balernoStu wrote: |
A home exercise on moving forward effectively...
Sit on a low stool with ankles directly below knees, then get up and walk forward. It may require a slightly awkward lean of the body. Second time drag the heels well back under the stool and push through the feet to rise. I expect this to feel stronger. Likewise each turn should start from the foot rather than a body lean, and some ankle flex helps to get it started. |
I like this tip. Something you can try and feel like this beats a thousand words. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My one poxy thought is that you are going to skid more when turning on steeper runs (unless you are capable of carving on reds and blacks what I ain't). As @rob@rar says, it's a dynamic sport what I forget when faced with anything vaguely steep (stunned bunny in headlights on skis impression)
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FAQ
The other falls were both forwards. What rob says about remaining in balance by flexing ankles, knees and waist is so true - though you can get away with murder and still stay upright on alpine material.
