 Poster: A snowHead
|
Happy New Year all! New to the forum but not to skiing. I would consider myself an advanced to expert skier and decided it was time to upgrade my boots. I have been skiing Salomon Evolution 8.0 for some time now and while it is really only an intermediate boot it had a lot of adjustability with flex, lean, canting and were the MOST comfortable and warm boots I have ever had (why it took so long to consider replacing). For Christmas, my wife (good girl) got me heat molded custom fit Atomic Redster Pro Series 120 boots with custom beds for my high arch. Fully expecting some initial discomfort until things pack-out, I ventured onto the hill and within the first run I could tell how much more forward lean these boots had making me feel like I was going to go overtop of my skiis. Unfortunately, subsequent runs commenced with unbearable quad burn followed by an Achilles tendon that felt like it would tear off. By lunch I couldn't walk or bring my right ankle to a comfortable resting position since it was throbbing and stiff.
I have experienced quad burn from long runs and hard days but never like this and certainly not with the ankle pain. I have spoken with the boot fitter and they said there is nothing they can do since the boot "fits" properly. They suggested modding the boot but there isn't much that can be done to this style of boot.
Is this something that a boot manufacturer would be at all sympathetic to (he said doubting his own words)? Or is it more likely to have been an improper fitting issue? i.e. since no measurement of dorsiflexion or look at forward lean creating stance issue.
I am not a terrible "backseat" skier. If I was I think I would not be able to ski full days with my old boots with zero discomfort.
Looking for any thoughts or advice before I start chasing any further down the rabbit hole. Many thanks in advance. - Chid
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Do the boots have a rear spoiler that can be removed to make them more upright?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Hi BobG, thanks for your response. The boots came with a spoiler in the box but I never installed it. I should add that throughout the day I was continually trying to stand up to get relief but the boot angle does not allow me to do that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
i think those redster pro's are more designed for racing... hence the lean angles.
you might have been much happier with for example Atomic Hawx - mine have an adjustment you can make yourself to alter lean angle, and i found the more upright angle made a big difference for me (9 deg? from 11 i think). i can still be 'engaged' on the shin against the front of the boot without being leant too far forward ( very noticeabley better balance over small 'jumps' and the like ).
i know this doesn't help,too much - but if it's the wrong style of boot it'll be tricky to get it fixed to the extent needed...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Thanks Coops. I wondered that but with a 120 flex was thinking it would simply be more of an experienced skier boot. Can't say I would disagree with the Hawx suggestion. I think if the Redster is indeed more of a racer's forward lean, I would be far better off with something more upright. I think what it now comes down to is where do I try and find restitution? Went into the store not having done research since they were a present, put my faith in the boot fitter who claims the boots "fit", went all out on customizable options and am now left up the creek without a paddle and immense, non-skiable boot and leg pain. Store had called Atomic and they were not willing to do anything and the store, although apologetic, can only suggest I sell them on eBay at my loss or gamble on them cutting them. Guess I am going to have to speak with Atomic directly as well as going to another well know boot fitter in town for a second opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I used to suffer a lot from thigh burn until I changed from my "racy" boots to a more upright model, Lange Xt and now it's all but disappeared...... Modern skis don't need that forward weighted stance, they're designed to be more "stood on"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@tchidlaw, there are a number of things which could be causing the issues
the forward lean on the redster pro is 15 degrees which is fairly average for boots (although a lot of models are now sitting at the 13 degree mark) it is very difficult to say without seeing the foot/boot as to what is going on but there is always something which can be done.... you must also remember that you have come from a 15 year old soft "punter" boot which will have packed down over the years and is probably not holding your feet
i should point out to @coops1967 that the hawx is (in its upright setting) 13 degrees of forward lean (the 9 or 11 degree is the NET forward lean but that can confuse people) as a comparison the NET forward lean of the redster is also 11 degrees
no manufacturer would accept the boot as a return as there is nothing wrong with the boot in terms of materials or manufacturer, the problem is a mismatch between you and the boot, it is possible to flare the cuff of a boot back by several mm which can accommodate the shape of the calf muscle and allow the more upright stance it sounds like you are looking for, ankle joint flexibility can play a massive role in your comfort inside a ski boot and if this was not addressed during the fitting then the job has not been done properly
i see you are based in Calgary, who was the fitter? PM me if you do not what to put it on the open forum just yet, i have a few contacts in that area and may be able to get you a second opinion and some more help with what needs to be done to make this a great boot for you
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Could you have the toe binding shimmed ??.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Can't comment on the fitting. Just two points. First, such a shame for your wife that her generous present wasn't a success. Second, CEM is a very widely respected boot fitter so do take up his offer of help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
@ CEM, thanks for the info.
am very glad i happened to pick the boots with the easy lean angle change - just going from the middle position to the more upright one really did make a noticeable change to my balance and so skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
@tchidlaw, If it's any consolation, like you, when I upgraded my boots I hated them.
Possibly where our tales of woe diverge is that I was living in resort and ski'd most days with the "respected boot-fitter" of the resort and he was a very good friend.
So not only did he know of my skiing style/ability when he looked at my feet/fitting he gave me what he thought were the best boots fro my feet.
I HATED THEM..... to the point of wanting to throw them away, the pain in my legs was incredible, stupid stupid boots....
Now I was ski guiding at the time and like anyone who skis 6 days a week, all day, 15 week(ish) a season I thought I was quite fit but also a little lazy, knowing how to pace my legs for a days skiing and my old worn out boots helped here.
However, the new boots didn't, they kept/held me in the correct position even if pootling along with "guests/punters and their children".
It was then that I realised that I was in fact a little fit and very lazy, so in the end I alternated boots until I became fitter, it didn't take long (a few weeks) but that's possibly longer than you're looking at/wanting.
So, whilst not really offering a suggestion apart from "get fitter" but might support the suggestions of looking at the whole fit to see if you can't get more of the lazy fit back.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
I got some boots fitted in Calgary about a month ago. I don't think we went to the same place because the fitter I went to doesn't stock Atomics. Had a fantastic experience of the fitting process but hated my boots the first time out. Well, loved how the boot helped my skiing but hated how uncomfortable they made me feel compared to my old boots (which were far too wide for me but felt like slippers!). Actually, uncomfortable is an understatement--almost in pain in my new boots. Went back for a couple more adjustments, skiied again, hated them less. Two more days in and suddenly my boots and I connected--blissfully! I now 100% love them. The whole process was very much a "trust me" experience. I ended up with far fewer adjustments than I thought I would need after that first day. I think I would have given up on the boots if I hadn't had so much faith in the fitter and the excellent fitting process. Now I have awesome boots that I think will serve me very well for a good few years. I do hope you are able to resolve the situation with your boots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Just an update on this thread to everyone.
I consulted a local boot fitter upon recommendation from CEM and, from his examination, the boots do fit my feet. However, I think it would have served me better to not have skied aggressively on the first (or second) day in the new boots until the liners had packed in a bit more. Basically the additional forward lean (from larger calves and boot design) forced me onto my toes but with the boots not done up too tightly my ankle was not locked-in as well as it should have been (reduced [not limited] dorsiflexion caused Achilles stretch). Now that my boots are packing in, things are starting to get better.
However, the fitter is going to add a toe lift which will help my ankle stay properly secured in the back of the boot while reducing some of the lean. I skied this weekend with some inserts under my toes and there was some marginal improvement in comfort.
Now to do my part, I will have to do the following:
1. work on increasing my quad muscle strength and endurance;
2. work on increasing dorsiflexion by stretching out and exercising Achilles more often;
3. Start getting used to the more aggressive skiing stance that my previous boots did not have me in.
Last resort is to blow up my boots and come to the conclusion that I am just not as young as I used to be. Racing style boots may just not be my cup of tea anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Hey, I said I would be honest regardless of the outcome so you can keep your snide remarks to yourself thanks. I now have five days in the boots and they still cause me pain ridiculous pain regardless of the terrain I am skiing. When you try to get everything custom fitted (and spend the money to do so), I think you expect things to get better, not worse.
Still a lot of changes to have to make just to try and make the things work and eliminate a trip to eBay. Don't think I will ever get to the point where I feel these were a good expenditure of funds or effort. But perhaps you'll never know . . .
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
Basically the additional forward lean (from larger calves and boot design) forced me onto my toes but with the boots not done up too tightly my ankle was not locked-in as well as it should have been (reduced [not limited] dorsiflexion caused Achilles stretch).
|
Was there a reason why the fitter chose not to make the cuff more upright?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Was there a reason why the fitter chose not to make the cuff more upright?
|
Would not make a substantial difference and I believe that mod would not work so well with the carbon fiber back that these boots have.
| Quote: |
Know exactly what you mean.
I have had a bunch of high performance boots over the years. Currently I have some high-end shelled, full-on, foam injected, etc boots that are incredibly precise but absolutely suck on the comfort scale - get cold feet, hurt on the flats, hurt hiking,... Much tweaking and poking has made them ok, but I am so happy for the days I am skiing in my lighter and sensible touring boots, old, and (relatively) soft and floppy as they are!
Next boots I'm definitely abandoning the performance boot approach! Too old to perform anyway! (if ever I did!)
|
I shall continue to fight with these a bit longer stuarth but won't leave it as long until I search out another pair. I don't want to forget all the information I have gleaned on boot fitting with this exercise. Alas, I will probably forget my password to this discussion board by next week 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
@tchidlaw, I got the same boots in a 130. if you use the softer footbed it gives a little more flex to the boot which unless you are pulling fast GS style turns should be all you need. I have to admit though, I love them, even for off piste on big fat skis, but I did go for foam custom liners as I have narrow heels. I have even toured on them for 20 minute ridge climbs. I get a little discomfort for the first couple of runs but after loosening the buckles on the first two chairs they then feel comfy for the rest of the day. A very precise boot that gives you a lot of control over the skis.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Cheers Scarpa, the 120s did not come with the different foot beds like the 130s and I am trying to find out if I can buy these separately from Atomic. Fingers crossed. It is good to hear that you feel that is one area that can make a difference. Was otherwise going to be shooting in the dark.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@Scarpa, struggling to understand how the footbed affects the flex?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| @Scarpa, struggling to understand how the footbed affects the flex? |
the redster has a similar shell flex pattern to the hawx, in that the lower shell flexes to reduce blockage in the binding during a turn, the 130 redster (and race models above) comes with a series of 3 chassis plates which sit below the baseboard, these are fidderent density materials and allow the boot to flex in slightly different ways
they were originally for race black = stiff for slalom, yellow = soft for speed and while = medium for all round/ GS
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
the redster has a similar shell flex pattern to the hawx, in that the lower shell flexes to reduce blockage in the binding during a turn, the 130 redster (and race models above) comes with a series of 3 chassis plates which sit below the baseboard, these are fidderent density materials and allow the boot to flex in slightly different ways
they were originally for race black = stiff for slalom, yellow = soft for speed and while = medium for all round/ GS
|
Recent update - I finally managed to track down some yellow chassis plates and to my delight, despite being designed for the redster 130s, they fit perfectly in the 120s. They actually do seem to make quite a difference in the amount of room in the boot by allowing me to get my heel a little lower. Will try them on the hill and report back. The Atomic rep didn't even know what the plates were so the ski shop had to implore him to call the head office and ask.
Also interesting to note, I took the boots back to the shop and we double baked them in the oven to get them nice and hot and by leaning back in them we were actually able to get them to move from 17 degrees down to 15 degrees after applying the cool packs. Might make a bit of difference there too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@tchidlaw, Hoping that you get the issues sorted. I have to admit, those boots are fairly demanding but once you gel with them, by god, they don't half make you want to push your skis. I am still using mine as my main off piste boot as the soft touring/all round Dynofit Ones I have just don't even approach the same level of control, but I think that if I found another dual use boot that fits as well in a 120 flex with a more upright stance then I would keep the Redsters for the pistes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
@flangesax I have no doubt that the quad burn was because I was skiing in the backseat but this was due to trying to get comfortable and more upright (something I was used to). I have skied three days on them with a lot less discomfort simply by toning down the level of difficulty of the runs. Things ignored during the fitting was 1. What are you skiing in now 2. How much skiing do you do. Of course I told them I am an expert skier. I am capable of almost all runs but after 10+ years of skiing a certain boot, making such a massive angle change was bound to create issues. I don't know that I will ever LOVE these boots but I share my story so that others may not make the same mistakes.
I now think fitting should include a fit for anatomy, a consideration of ski frequency, a look at previous boots (if someone was happy with the old ones), and consideration of experience/expertise. Mine did not.
I fell into the age old trap of going for some of the expert equipment when really all I needed was equipment that better suited me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@tchidlaw, thanks for that honest reply... totally right about the fitter considering more options!
Sorry about coming across as a complete git.... (I try to be only half of one!)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
) I am definitely going to consult a proper fitter (as detailed in my offline communications with @CEM). I at least owe that to ATOMIC, the store and the members of this board that have been so helpful. I will report back with findings to provide closure to this thread and hopefully help someone else in the future that may encounter similar issues and, YES, even if it turns out I have become a bit too soft
Shock horror.... new boots force bloke to regress his estimation... 
