 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
I have been skiing for a long time and I have seen a lot and heard a lot in resorts and from chalet staff about the way the ski industry works. Skiing is big business and the model seems to be for holiday companies to make as much as possible while working their staff hard for minimal wages. Gap year students, unrepentant ski bums and professional seasonal workers make up the majority of the ranks of workers and there appears to be a general acceptance that the wages will be low but the experience is worth it.
Last year there was a dispute between a group of chalet workers and their employer which resulted in the former occupying a chalet in the three valleys. I followed the story as best I could, given that it did not attract significant media attention, and I understand that the French authorities were not unsupportive. As a lawyer it has set me thinking about employee rights in France for seasonal workers. French employment law is complex and very much balanced in favour of the employee. English employment law is far more flexible and slightly tilted in favour of the employer but employees still enjoy a significant number of rights whether or not they are on a fixed term contract or not.
From the stories I have heard where there is a dispute the employee and employer usually just part company and the employee either heads home or gets another job in resort. However I have also been told of employers compelling employees to sign false declarations under the European Working Time Directive, bullying employees, physical and verbal abuse and the withholding of pay. I am interested to hear from anyone who has taken on a British registered ski company in an employment dispute whatever the outcome.
To be clear this is just a bit of fact finding and I am not offering free legal advice or trying to build up trade I am simply genuinely interested to know what is happening.
Many thanks,
Rob
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had a great time - fair pay, good perks, well treated. No horror stories - i'd go and work for them again no probs.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks for the replies but I fear that you are rather missing the point. I have done a bit of ski guiding in the past and had a good time but I know it is not like that for everyone. In my experience 'chalet slave' is a widely used term and not intended to be derogatory. Genuinely interested in peoples stories.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| Thanks for the replies but I fear that you are rather missing the point. |
No - I am just taking the liberty to disagree with your preconceived agenda.
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| Skiing is big business and the model seems to be for holiday companies to make as much as possible while working their staff hard for minimal wages |
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| employers compelling employees to sign false declarations under the European Working Time Directive, bullying employees, physical and verbal abuse and the withholding of pay. |
The assumption made that all staff are underpaid exploited slaves is derogatory and simplistic.
At the end of the day ski companies need good staff to run their chalets. If the customers aren't happy then the companies go out of business pretty fast so its not in their interest to mistreat the staff. Often the people who do get sacked really deserve it (i.e lazy youngsters who drink too much, first job out of university, think the world owes them a living). For sure there are occasional horror stories out there - not surprisingly some employers are much better than others, much like any walk of life really.
Though I would say the vast majority of people who have done a ski season will rate it as a memorable and fun time of their life ? For a 20 something your old that wants an easy way to spend a season in the alps then chalet work can be a decent option.
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| Bigrobski wrote: |
Hi,
I have been skiing for a long time and I have seen a lot and heard a lot in resorts and from chalet staff about the way the ski industry works. Skiing is big business and the model seems to be for holiday companies to make as much as possible while working their staff hard for minimal wages. Rob |
Rob
Big Business - hmm well if you call 1m UK participants a year 'big business' then I guess it might be. I'd imagine it's just a pimple on the number of summer holiday trips booked
Have you seen the margins made by the major operators - close to the square root of not a lot. Whilst I'm not an apologist for them the fact that you can get a week 1/2 board in a chalet with hosts, transfers, flights etc for 600 quid or so is not a bad deal IMHO. If the trade off is that they can't afford to pay chalet staff a lot, but give them 5 monnths good times in the mountains with accom, food and lift pass, then most chalet staff seem happy to make that trade. I always make sure I tip the hosts, and where they've gone beyond the norm, make sure I (& others) put in more.
yes there are bad apples, but then you could have a rubbish job being exploited in a warehouse in the uk and the views and apres don't add up to much
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The views here seem very different to the "tipping" thread i've just read where most people seem to in the "low pay, thats there problem" camp.
One of the most common problems i hear about is people being fired before the end of the contract to avoid paying bonuses, this comes up time and time again. I've only every heard of two employees taking action though, and that dwindled out once the size of the task in hand becomes apparent.
The best story I've seen first hand was a transfer driver who had a dispute with a company. he drove the bus to the swiss/french board and told them that the bus was un-insured and not legally being used (registration etc). He obviously left the company but managed to extract what he saw as some form of revenge 
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The last slave we were looked after by was really misserable when she was handed over 400e in tips from the chalet guests.
It would have been closer to 300 if she hadn't given us the previous weeks unused wine supply. God loves Mormon ski groups!
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Wholly agree with all bertiebassett says. For decades UK package holidays - winter and summer - have been incredibly good value for what you get. The industry margins are very small due to the competitive market . Hence the company failure rate. We have been going on chalet packages for years and I always ask the chalet staff how they are treated as employees and the vast majority are happy and it shows in what they do. Up to us as bertie bassett says to tip if we happy too.
Very different to the documentary last Monday night on cruise ship employees - conditions horrific by European standards.
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I've worked in resort and from UK within the chalet industry : chalet girl, chalet host, kitchen hand, pot washer, toilet cleaner, ski host, etc. to UK based reservations and recruitment after I had my son, and now a partner in a chalet holiday company. i can tell you I was A LOT better of when I worked in chalets having all living expenses paid, a lift pass provided, insurance paid, bar allowance, travel to and from resort and just over 100 euros a week pocket money (not including tips, which were pretty good too - if you do your job properly and give people a good time the rewards are good) And I worked a lot less hours too.
I can't speak for the big operators, our company is very small but we have to keep prices as low as we possibly can to have a chance of filling our chalets and the over heads are high : not sure how much you imagine it costs to run a chalet (just the rent alone for a season is eye watering) and it's enormously hard work. I'd be laughing if I had £100 a month left over (let alone a week) after I've paid my mortgage, council tax, keeping a car on the road, food, heating, etc. and I suspect so would a lot of people! Staff return to chalet work year after year once they've done one season (I'm an example of that - took 6 months off a proper job to do a ski season ... and never went back!); it's a great life style generally. And a fantastic experience for youngsters.
I heard about the chalet staff locking themselves in the chalet - I don't know the full story but I heard the employer went under (don't know if it's true). There's usually two sides to a tale of this kind. I'm sure there are some dodgy employers out there, but I can't imagine you would last long in the holiday industry if you consistently treat staff badly because this will reflect on the experience they supply to your customers; your customers won't return, you'll get a reputation ... and after that the outlook for the future is probably not good!
As for it all being "big business" with the companies earning loads of dosh and paying their staff very little ... certainly doesn't work like that in our company : there's not a lot of profit in it, we're lucky enough to be doing well enough with bookings to get through these hard times and keep ourselves in a job - but many companies aren't, sadly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think if anyone wants to go in all lawyered up on the industry they might be able to have a field day but it seems that it would be in no-one's specific interest, not the staff, operators nor the customers.
That doesn't mean the industry is not a magnet for dreamers, chancers and the downright crooked such as highlighted in the case of the Les Menuires 7 last year, Takemetoski and Chris Reynard.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Haha - I love how all it takes to create a totally out of character ski industry love-in is for a lawyer to ask about sharp employment practices!
Bigrobski, you might get some better war stories on Natives, although you might get an even harder time! despite the positive comments, I think the only poster on this thread who still works in the industry is Joanne Mountainsun, so read into that what you will
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob,
Exactly . I also fit Haggis_Trap, description namely
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a middle class lawyer, who likes skiing
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Everything going for me then..........
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think there's a personality issue here too: 90% of people who take up this kind of work do so with theirs eyes open and spend the season focussed on the positives of being able to do so much skiing rather than quibbing about work/pay. They should have stayed at home if money was important. But you do come across the 10% or less who seem to be just bitter people anyway, and who I am sure will always have something to complain about. Challenge for companies is rooting these out before they even hire them
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Low pay is partly supply and demand as the companies will always find staff willing to exchange work for a seaons access to the slopes and a little spending money.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hi Rob
Really think you have your facts wrong, chalet slaves as you call them get very good deal, accommodation ,ski pass, food, money in their pocket, ski hire, insurance ect... they all know what they are getting into, they work hard but get to ski 7 days a week. As a chalet owner I pay my staff very well, I dont make a fortune, just enough to see me and my family through the year
You should really get your fact correct before posting
Kind Regards
Paolo
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Are chalet staff really that badly paid ?
Accomodation for a season = £4000 (minimum)
Season Pass = £800
Food = £40 * 20 weeks = £800
Pay = £100 * 20 weeks = £2000
Total = £7600
Plus perks (cheap beers, ski hire, insurance, transport to resort, tips etc)
For a 5 month season that is a reasonable 18.5K pro rata. (though admitedly big ski companies will get bulk discounts on their staff accomdation + lift passes).
Not too bad for a job that lets you ski 6 days a week. If your young and want to ski everyday for a winter or two it can be a lot of fun. Reckon I was better off, and importantly got to ski more, than if I had been teaching for a ski school.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 7-10-12 19:01; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Plus ski/board hire D'oh forgot to read, I know some companies have arrangements re:hire but even if you call £50/week for ski hire, £50*20 = £1k as well
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Are chalet staff really that badly paid ?
Accomodation for a season = £4000 (minimum)
Season Pass = £800
Food = £40 * 20 weeks = £800
Pay = £100 * 20 weeks = £2000
Total = £7600
Plus perks (cheap beers, ski hire, insurance, transport to resort, tips etc)
For a 5 month season that is a reasonable 18.5K pro rata. (though admitedly big ski companies will get bulk discounts on their staff accomdation + lift passes).
Not too bad for a job that lets you ski 6 days a week. If your young and want to ski everyday for a winter or two it can be a lot of fun. Reckon I was better off, and importantly got to ski more, than if I had been teaching for a ski school. |
Just on this, it's nothing like that really.
Ski companies get a discount on season passes (a meribel valley one through a TO for a season costs about €300)
You don't get £40 for food, if your food is not provided in staff meals or in left overs from chalet food then it's more like 25 a week
Accomodation generally won't be 4k either, if you are live in you'll be cramped into a room that they feel they can't rent out and cost the company nothing or into a cheap shared flat.
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^ depends on the specific company / resort / employer / role etc.
it not totally uncommon for chalet staff to stay in the chalet or hotel they run (for example).
though the main reward / motivation for doing a ski season is time on the mountain!
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mbydmt,
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I know some companies have arrangements re:hire but even if you call £50/week for ski hire, £50*20 = £1k as well
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Nah - the value of ski hire to a season worker is not £1000; you can buy a set for £300 tops in resort and likely be able to pay it off weekly. Similarly, the cost to the TO is not £1000 either; the cost of staff gear is negligable, as most shops will include it in the deal with the TO.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Chalet monkeys are losers running away from stuff at home.
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The cost to the TO is irrelevant, it's what it wouldf cost you to stay in resort for that length of tiem that is relevant So, not that badly paid esp once tips are factored in.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thats not the issue, if I was going on holiday for a season that would be the case, not working a 45-50 hour week, the cost to the TO is the wages and if the cost to the TO is nil then it shouldn't count as something to take into account for wages.
Being a seasonairre is a great gig don't get me wrong but we are paid a pittance in the grand scheme of things, especially for the level of service offered by most TOs or private chalet companies, yeah sure effectively the 90 a week or whatever you earn is all spending but take into account that you are going to be living somewhere that makes the cost of living in London look cheap.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Quinton, very true, not going to disagree, every factor seasonally is going to cost significantly less, obviously still a perk of the job tho as well.
Whitegold - bear bating much?
Obviously chalet boys/girls are not on a graduate salary or even shop style salary but as said above, for the right person, the benefits far outweigh the negatives. If you want a decent wage and that's your first priority then you'd have to be a pleb to consider chalet jobs.
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Mr brother washed dishes for a season in an hotel in Saas Fee. At the time I teased him about it but then when he went to Oxford his experience in 'the trade' enabled him to land a job parking cars at the Randolph which kept him in beer money during his studies.
This was in 1979 but I doubt much has changed.
Does that help?
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You know it makes sense.
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When my brother was on a graduate management scheme living in London (with London weighting for pay) he worked out that I was better off financially working in a chalet than he was by time he'd taken in to account accom, bills, travel expenses (fuel, car insurance, tube fare) and food, and our hours weren't much different...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Whitegold wrote: |
| Chalet monkeys are losers running away from stuff at home. |
Really? When people said you are an back bottom I tended not to see it but now I agree with them. A blinkered back bottom who lives on his reputation from 30years ago.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dwarf Vader, do you not feel like contributing something substantive to the thread? You have such interesting stories to tell! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
A blinkered back bottom
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Or front, more like? Sad git who gets off on provoking responses like this. This is the first and only one he'll get from me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am not sure that this thread has really achieved very much. I was interested to hear from people who had actually had good or bad experiences rather than gauge opinion of the industry. Okay I asked about bad experiences to see if others had suffered from similar treatment to the very real and substantiated cases I cited in my inital post and the follow up. I suspect that this was the wrong forum to try to get a balanced view on this sort of question. Having had a pretty decent experience myself I was genuinely interested in others experiences
Just one point...those of you who don't like lawyers if you were attacked in the street wouldn't you want the person arrested and prosecuted? How about if you were ripped off by a company or suffered and injury through no fault of your own and could no longer go skiing? Wouldn't you want a lawyer to defend your rights? If some halfwitted reckless tosser hit you on a ski slope and put you in intensive care wouldn't you want recompense? If your wife or husband absconded to another country with your child, bet you would want to see a lawyer then? How about if you are wrongly accused or even guilty and fearful of going to prison? I don't ever remember anyone saying they disliked me for being a lawyer when they had spent a few hours in a police cell and I got them out! Oh, and its also worth noting that working in criminal law is akin to working almost for nothing as legal aid rates and prosecution payments hardly even pay the rent in London. I have worked weeks where my hourly rate fell below minimum wage because I worked so many hours. I am not looking for sympathy but as someone here rather rudely and inaccurately (as they clearly never read it properly) said about my post 'you should really get your fact correct before posting' Don't be so small minded because you all need lawyers at some point and even though we all know what some of you think we still do our job.
If anyone has an on topic comment then please do post.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ the lawyer gets a little butt-hurt about people commenting on his profession
.... after assuming all young people working temporarily for ski companies are 'exploited slaves' 
you are right - this thread hasn't achieved very much.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 15-10-12 15:08; edited 2 times in total
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A poor lawyer; now that`s a story 
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I wouldnt worry about it
If the UK leaves the EU all these UK registered chalet companys operating in the France,Austria etc will be finished.
EU cross border working for UK citizens will be much more difficult.
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Plenty of badly paid lawyers out there. Funny how people criticise lawyers but are quick enough to employ them to get themselves out of a jam.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I worked last winter as a middle manager in a chalethotel, with a lot of responsibility and stress (and practically no training) for £60 a week, unhealthy and sometimes not properly cooked staff food (I believe their budget per staff member per day was a whole €3.50) and an admittedly very nice shared room but a good 35 min walk from the centre of the resort (8 of the guys lived in the old sauna, you can imagine how that went). I got a £500 bonus at the end of the season.
This summer I worked in the alps as a rep for a different company, had a week's training, managers who generally knew what they were doing, and a good working atmosphere. I got £125 a week plus commission (which was sometimes an extra €60 a week), a very nice shared flat (with two balconies and a spare room), and hotel meals several times a week. My bonus at the end of this season will be about £1000.
It's all about who you work for. Suffice to say it's the second company who get the German graduate with two seasons experience working for them this winter. Pay peanuts, get monkeys
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Bigrobski, Before you get all butt hurt remember you may or may not be the only lawyer in this thread.
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FAQ
