 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm after some tips, but not exactly skiing tips! On our last holiday me and my other half joined a guided group run by the tour op. On a couple of occassions members of the group "froze". No, I don't mean that their body temperatures dropped below zero degrees, rather that they got half way down a run then just couldn't go any further. Generally speaking, it wasn't that they didn't have the ability to ski the terrain just that they suffered a sudden, dramatic loss of confidence.
Apart from endless patience, can anyone come up with techniques and tactics to help get folks down the mountain, either with or without skis?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Firstly, in my experience, it is very unwise to take skis off in an area where you are worried about the steepness. I have seen a nasty fall in one such case.
I reckon the only thing left is endless patience. I might suggest a stem turn, depending on the circumstances - I'd be interested to see what snowheads experienced in guiding or instructing had to say, though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In terms of skiing - side slipping, stem turns and traverses linked by kick turns will get you down most things.
In terms of psychology - depends.
Definitely wouldn't take skis off, as Nick says.
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I would discourage people from stopping in places where they can spend a long time looking at a steep bit. The more you look at it, the steeper it gets. The best place to get a view of it is from the bottom.
I skied with a friend last year who is a competent skier, but loses her confidence on steeper sections, the best way that I found to get her down it was to bully her into not stopping at the top of steep bits, and making her follow me directly down them with a positive pole plant, followed by an immediate turn around it, followed immediately by another pole plant, followed immediately by another turn all the while calling out what I was doing, so that she could do it in time as well. They have to trust your assessment, but if they do it they soon find that it's not as bad as they were thinking. This girl had never skied a black before, and came down Le Face at Val d'Isere with no problems whatsoever.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would agree with Kramer , the longer you stop the steeper it looks. If you are in a group team up better skiers with weaker skiers with the better skier leading the weaker party down the slope showing the best place to turn.
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| Alan Craggs wrote: |
In terms of skiing - side slipping, stem turns and traverses linked by kick turns will get you down most things.
In terms of psychology - depends. Definitely wouldn't take skis off, as Nick says. |
My first comment is that if you are an instructor or are acting informally in that capacity, and a situation like this develops, 90% of the time, you are at fault because you over-terrained your student. You moved them up in terrain too quickly and didn't allow yourself enough time to check them out on short, steeper sections of easier runs. That being said, students do occasionally freeze up for reasons that may not even be known to them, so you should have ways to deal with this situation.
Side slipping, stem turns and traverses linked by kick turns is good advice for someone with several weeks of experience on the snow, but who momentarily freeze up. Unfortunately, these maneuvers often don't work for less experienced folks. Any of those three maneuvers can go bad and leave the person heading straight down the fall line at high speed, sometimes, backwards. A kick turn attempted by someone scared and not well practiced can turn the victim into a human pretzel.
For someone less experienced who freezes up on greens and blues, I have had good luck with the following:
1) If they are hesitant, but can ski alone, I will encourage them to focus on the side of the hill, never directly down the hill at what they perceive as an absurdly steep ribbon of white death awaiting them. 
2) If they are having a bit more trepidation, before they fully give in to their fears, I'll turn the situation into a learning experience by giving them an easy (but useful) task such as doing garlands and/or unlinked single turns back up the hill to a stop. Forcing them to concentrate on the task, not their fears, nicely distracts most people. Before they know it, they are off the steep section.
3) If the student needs a bit more support, I will head off across the hill in a slow, shallow traverse. I will have the student follow directly in my tracks, at most, a couple of meters behind me. This makes them focus on me, a nearby, slow-moving, better skier whose every movement they can emulate. It always amazes me how well something as simple as this works.
4) If the student needs even more psychological support, I will traverse extremely slowly (i.e., like above), except that I will ski side-by-side with them, almost touching shoulders, with me on the downhill side. I use my skis to block any tendency for their skis to try to head downhill (either forward or backward). For this approach, it helps that I'm a big guy. Sometimes, I start this approach with the usual banana shape angulation exercise, where I try to pull them (while stopped in a traverse) down the hill by their poles. Seeing that they can resist this much force dramatically increases their confidence.
5) In the above situations, once you get near the edge of the trail, having done some variant of a traverse, there is the moment of truth - they MUST turn around. What I do here depends entirely on the student and the terrain. For example, if there is a small section of the hill that is a bit less steep than the average, I'll head for it and let them use it to do whatever type of turn they are familiar with. With some students that are simply are too scared to turn into the fall line, I've let them take off their downhill ski, use their poles for stability, and pivot on their downhill boot (which then becomes their uphill boot after the turn) and then click back into the ski. With others (particularly, cute young women  ), I've simply let them grip me around the waist and "choo-choo" them down the slope, making big wedge ski patroller turns. I usually don't have any problem confusing them with a sled. Unfortunately, I suspect that all-too-often, they do confuse me with a large steam locomotive. 
6) If someone totally freezes up and refuses to slide forward at all on their skis, do NOT let them take off their skis if the surface is in the least bit hard / icy. Instead, have them practice side-stepping (not side-slipping) downhill. Usually, after the first 100 or so vertical feet of sidestepping, they get bored with the task and essentially demand to do something different that will get them downhill faster.
7) Psychological / people skills are essential. Having the patience of a saint, empathy, a "can-do" attitude, and the student having confidence that you will keep them safe and not make them do something they don't want to do are all essential characteristics for the instructor in a situation such as this.
 Every now and then, you get a student for which none of these things work. Last year, for an evening lesson, I was assigned a pair of 20 y.o. women. One claimed to be an American level "7" (solid intermediate). Her friend was much less experienced ( probably about level 5), but apparently was quite athletic. Both had skied our main green slope repeatedly earlier that day, during the daylight hours. This run is a tad longer and steeper than your average green, but is definitely not a blue. The problem with it is that when you get to the top and look back down, it goes in an absolutely straight line, all the way down to the lodge. Against their protests, cautious guy that I am, I started their lesson on our bunny slope. Both women got off the lift well, straight-lined it, and complained that it was much too easy.
Everything looks OK, so I take them up the main green slope. Everything is fine until we started down the hill. The less experienced woman is gung-ho and wants instruction. The more experienced guest is making her turns OK, but is seemingly becoming more and more distracted with each turn. Finally, a couple of hundred yards from the top, I ask her what's bothering her. At that point, she takes on the appearance of a deer in the headlights, is staring out into space, and in this whispering voice says, "The lights - - they are soooo faaaar awayyyy". She then proceeds to sit down and continues to stare down the hill, straight into blackness. With an inordinate amount of coaxing, joking, explanations, goal setting, recalling that she has been on this slope all day, etc. I finally am able to convince her to get back up. She gets up, and at zero miles per hour, falls back down, complains that she twisted her knee and says that she just wants to sit there.
At that point, the only thing I could do was get the attention of the ski patrol and have them give her a ride down to the lodge. Of course, it took them 15 minutes to arrive and get her strapped in, 60 seconds to go down the hill, and another hour to unstrap her, take her into the infirmary, examine her, get her story, write up an "accident" report, etc. I finished the lesson with her friend (who did quite well, as I recall). At the end of my shift, as I was leaving the infirmary after giving my side of the story, a guy stops me and starts apologizing. Apparently, the woman was his girlfriend, she has done this before at night, and he thought a lesson would help her. Unfortunately, he "forgot" to tell anyone in the Ski School the real purpose of the lesson when he signed them up. Arghhh! Sometimes you just can't win.
Tom / PM
PS - Whoa!!! Sorry about the length of this post. I looked at it immediately after I posted it, and it's length even scared me from re-reading it.  I forget how fast I can type. Just ignore me when I go on like this. 
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Interesting this, as last weekend, the experienced members of the group would go down before me on the moguli or very steep bits.
On our last run last Sunday, at the top of a mogul run, my mate lost it and did a tom and jerry - tom going downstairs bump bump bump
fall from just after the top line all the way to the bottom.
I just took it slowly, the problem appeared to be airpockets under the hard pack - got down it though.
The only slope so far that I have looked from the top and and just said no was Chavanette - hope to do that before the season is out.
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Clive, this has happened to me before. Fortunately I had a good friend with me with a ready supply of chocolate and gossip to take my mind off it. I found it helped to have a chat about something completely different, preferably something/one that made me a bit cross. Then I found I could get myself down. Couldn't necessarily do anything afterwards though
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Physicsman, that seemed to cover everything I've had the occasional lapse of confidence, once it starts the natural reaction is to lean back and into the slope - which I know is exactly the wrong thing to do! I've also done the thing where I'm worried about making a turn and trundle inexorably to the edge of the piste...
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I think that the hardest habit to break, and the one that is generally most successful is learning not to stop at the top of steep bits.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've never actually frozen, but I've been bloody scared, at which point of course any technique I may have had goes out of the window (less so these days, as I know the signs!). Thank God for side slipping (and side stepping). I've often been grateful to the instructor who insisted that we learnt to side slip competently on a steep, icy slope.
I remember one poor girl in a class in Courmayeur having a nightmare coming down a steep, very icy path; the instructor had to go up to her, took ages over it, the works. When she arrived to a somewhat embarrassed silence, to break the ice (as it were) I said, 'Right, well done, now go up and do it again properly.', at which she burst into tears. If you're reading this, err, sorry. I did have a twinkle in my eye, though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Clive, Am I the only person who finds this frightening? TOs/ instructors or whoever who 'regularly' encounter this are doing their clients a disservice. We can all suddenly 'freeze' but regular repetition suggests that they/we are out of our depth. I saw it once last year and the instructor concerned was mortified that he had 'over-stretched' his client ( so much so that he was still worried about it the following day).
There is little 'worse' for any aspiring sportsperson than to be found 'wanting'
I did it to my daughter this Xmas ; another reason for using pro instructors whenever you can.
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eEvans, I agree that if it's a regular thing then the instructor/guide or whatever is definitely pushing people to hard. Having said that, some people do actually need to be pushed to believe they can do it, and then the "Don't you dare stop" routine has to come out. It's a long time since I had anyone "freeze on me" (can't actually remember it happening), but certainly I've had some people who needed bullying, or stroking, or cajoling, or distracting or whatever to get them down ... 
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, I'm afraid this is just a post which agrees with you 'absolutely'. And , despite my lack of literary ability, I remain a little 'concerned' by the original post.
If You as a pro instructor of some repute can not recall a customer who 'froze' despite the need to inevitably 'push' some of us then what was going on in Clive, 's case?
Maybe I'm too old , stupid or ignorant but us learner folks (i.e. 99.9999% of this forum) need to get their heads around the fact that 'Real' instructors are worth their weight in gold and there is no such thing as 'I can't Do it' when they say so.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I would discourage people from stopping in places where they can spend a long time looking at a steep bit. The more you look at it, the steeper it gets.
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for those of us who are just amateurs, out ski-ing with friends, i think this is the most important bit of advice. Keep going slowly, and just suggest that whoever is having problems tries to follow the same line down. But I agree with the concerns expressed about anyone to whom this happens too often. I ski quite a lot with people who haven't skied much for a long time, and are apprehensive. We have a very easy ski area, I know it well, and I take pride in being able to find circuits which apprehensive people can do, and feel really pleased about. Because I am a useless beginner snowboarder, I understand exactly what it feels like to be scared of a slope everyone assures you is "easy". Skiers who regularly find themselves taking friends out of their depth should be strapped to a snowboard and stuck on a chairlift....
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, yes! Another one is going with "friends" who assure you that a steep bit is "easy" and ski off down without waiting for you, then wonder why you throw your skis at them when you (finally) get to the bottom 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| eEvans wrote: |
| If You as a pro instructor of some repute can not recall a customer who 'froze' despite the need to inevitably 'push' some of us then what was going on in Clive, 's case? |
The original post was about a TO rep, rather than an instructor, a very different animal, I suspect. Mind you, maybe 'freezing' is an unpredictable event, perhaps as surprising to the freezer as to anyone else. On the other hand, it seems that it happened in Clive's group more than once.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 31-01-06 18:53; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I suspect that a TO rep would have a very mixed ability group .
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richmond, riverman, Yes , so shouldn't the TO rep have worked to the abilities of the least able ? - I suspect many 'group lessons' suffer from mixed abilities. It's for the person i/c to suss it out ? I still think it's an indictment on the person in charge in this example .... and more importantly a 'bad' experience for those who 'froze'.
I still believe the 'lesson' is to ski with those 'qualified' to teach/understand.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think one aspect of is discussion has been neglected: some people are just cowardly. I have been skiing with my best friend for years and to see him on a nice blue or red you would think he would be fine on steeper terrain. We have been skiing for the same amount of time and have very similar abilities. However, as soon as it looks steep and a little icy he freezes up and loses his technique. He claims he has vertigo and this is the reason but I think the real reason is that on the steep stuff he can't stop on a six pence like he can on a nice groomed run and so doesn't feel in control. Given his ability level on cruising pistes and the speed he goes on them (he clocked over 70km/h over xmas) any instructor would be forgiven for taking him on a steeper runs but will inevitably find he freezes up. In general a bit of gentle bullying is the best way to get him down and by the time we are having a beer in the evening we have to listen to how fast he went down all the blacks and how beautiful his turns were.
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Let's not forget that different people respond to stressful situations in different ways. Some people get a sense of accomplishment and a confidence boost from overcoming a stressful situation, other don't, and find that it actually harms their confidence. The second group are the ones who tend to benefit from a softly softly approach, the first more of an in at the deep end approach. Many people who are of one personality type find it difficult to understand people in the other, but it doesn't mean that one type is better than the other, just different.
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Not sure I got my point across very well. I meant that my friend is more than capable of getting down steep terrain in a controlled and fairly stylish manner. However, he gets scared of the steepness (and ice isn't helpful either). The reason I mentioned it was because he has remained a freeze risk no matter how much better he has got over the years and you couldn't blame anyone (instructor or TO rep) for taking him on a steep run and finding he froze up.
I could look at it the other way and say he is brave because he is still scared and continues to ski steeps, but I honestly don't think he expects to be scared when we look up from the bottom.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm with eEvans - this is worrying! If someone ends up freezing then it's a terrible reflection on the person in charge I would say. Fair enough a stop and an 'argh I can't do this' moment, a full on freeze means not only have you overfaced them, they don't trust you enough to get them out of it either...To my mind it DOESN'T MATTER that they are physically/technically capable - if they are not mentally ready for something then thats just the same, confidence issues aren't imaginary they are just as much of a problem as technical issues and need the same kind of practice to overcome...you can't just ignore them.
So my solution - pick easier slopes! And a different person to ski with the next day....
aj xx
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I ski some very steep and potentially dangerous stuff, however I still have 'moments' in the silliest of places, especially exposed traverses - I could ski off a small cliff happily, but could not traverse it.
I had another slightly nervy moment going into the very top entrance of Ruby Bowl from the traverse at the top of Spanky's Ladder. The traverse is dead flat and easy, yet the presence of cliff signs either side un-nerves me. Also the chute, whilst steep and a bit icy, is not particularly so, it is just the cliffs and rocks either side that bother me for no particularly rational reason.
The coach I was with reckons it's because I focus too far ahead rather than concentrating mostly on what's immediately ahead, therefore I see a big drop off the cliffs rather than the chute and easier turns.
I find that absolutely the worst thing you can do is to stop (though I guess taking your skis off/sitting down/grabbing the slope would be up there too!). Keep moving, even if it is a gradual side slip/step, once you stop it is difficult to get going again.
Obsessed_intermediate, I'm curious to see what you think is steep so you can judge my level of cowardice.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eEvans wrote: |
richmond, riverman, Yes , so shouldn't the TO rep have worked to the abilities of the least able ? - I suspect many 'group lessons' suffer from mixed abilities. It's for the person i/c to suss it out ? I still think it's an indictment on the person in charge in this example .... and more importantly a 'bad' experience for those who 'froze'.
I still believe the 'lesson' is to ski with those 'qualified' to teach/understand. |
I agree.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stuarth I think your on to something with the not looking ahead too much idea. On our third ever trip (we went to Pas de la Casa) we had had brilliant sunshine for two whole days so we set off for a longish trip on the third morning. The forecast was for snow in the evening and it was bright and sunny when we left. We got to a high point at about 11am and saw a load of cloud in the distance so became excited at the though of some fresh snow to improve the icy pistes. The next time we got to a high point we realised a thick dense bank of cloud had started to form in the slopes near home so we turned back. By the time we got to the red above Pas it was almost a complete white out and you couldn't see much more than 4 metres ahead. I went down cautiously, but lost everyone on the way. I got to the agreed meeting point and found all my friends waiting for me. Even though the piste was still icy my friend (who had had freezing up problems at the top of that piste for the previous two days) had flown down it.
Over lunch we chatted about it and basically since he couldn't see how steep it was or how far he might fall it was he found it much easier!
Judging steepness is really tricky. I have no idea about inclination angles but I reckon any piste on which you need to think about jumps turns and the idea of carving it scares the hell out of you counts.
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Obsessed_intermediate, that's more or less what my hubby and kids try to tell me when the visibility is poor.. Personally, if I can't see what's ahead, I'm more scared.
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You know it makes sense.
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Helen Beaumont, me too. I hate poor visibilty; I like to see what I'm skiing toward, and even more, what I'm about to ski on.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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richmond, exactly. I think that's one of the reasons I didn't enjoy Whistler as much as I expected. far less sunshine and far more fog than Europe. Less ice too mind you.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ajhainey wrote: |
| If someone ends up freezing then it's a terrible reflection on the person in charge |
I just wanted to put in a word for those of us amateurs who sometimes end up 'in charge' of mixed ability groups. People who end up 'following' in a group can easily forget that skiing (even on piste) is an unpredictable sport. And that doesn't help anyone.
I've been in situations where someone has frozen a couple of times and once spent what seemed like half the holiday side stepping down a slope with a skier who had got out of his depth.
Shared responsibility is fine ("let's-work-together-to-get-you-down") - but the "why-did-you-get-me-into-this-terrible-situation?" look is a real pain-in-the-back bottom.
Often the answer is:
1. You're not paying me.
2. I don't live here.
3. We've skied three red runs today with no problem.
4. I had no way of knowing that this red was going to be (or look to you) steeper/bumpier/narrower/icier than the others (or in the case of bumps and ice - than it was a couple of days ago).
5. Yes, I feel guilty - but trying to make me more so is actually making me less so!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Helen Beaumont I have to say I agree with you from a personal point of view. Skiing into the unknown seems a great deal more scary to me (even if the piste has a relatively shallow gradient) compared with a steep bit of terrain in good visibility.
Clearly my friends mind works in the reverse to mine and yours.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am usually the one 'in charge' of our group, so I do understand (especially on the bumps and ice front, you'd think I'd be better at predicting that by now!), but I still think if it's happening several times a holiday then you'd need to look at the kind of skiing you were encouraging that person to do. There again I was really talking about reps - and a rep does live there, and they are being paid, they should know! Being the 'most responsible' of a group is somewhat different? Especially in a group of competent red runs skiers, who should have enough mountain sense to make their own decisions, which seems to be more what you are talking about.
aj xx
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stuarth, no I'd still have enjoyed it, but I did come away a little disillusioned with my ski class last year and it was mainly because everyone else was either local or a seasonaire. They were all a bit more used to the conditions, and had also done the ski class several times before.
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The only thing that gets my goat is the permanently delusioned skier who won't accept that they are not good enough to be with the group, no matter how many times they freeze up, how much they spoil your skiing, or how much you drop subtle, and not so subtle hints.
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Kramer, Only once happened in a group I've been with - a long time ago. Happened to you often?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| ...or how much you drop subtle, and not so subtle hints. |
Like not waiting for them at the lift...
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| DavidS wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
| ...or how much you drop subtle, and not so subtle hints. |
Like not waiting for them at the lift... |
or waiting till they are on the lift, then catching the lift going up the other side of the valley?
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FAQ
The 461cm of fresh stuff meant it was snowing/cloudy most of the time - I think the sun was out for about a day or so in the entire month. Fortunately there are some great trees to ski in which make skiing on snowy/cloudy days even better. I hate skiing in white-outs or very flat light too; you never know when the cornice shunk/avy debris is going to spring out and rip your ski off, or when you are going to fall off an unseen wind lip - I've seen some v.good skiers get hurt like this.
always made it down granted not always on my feet 
since with less experienced skiers i do the same as many hear talk up their confidence then let them follow me marking turns and taking it really easy for them once they're down making them look back up it and be amazed with themselves