Do boarders damage the piste?

A snowHead

I'd heard there were certain resorts in the States that ban snowboarding. I thought this was simply for snobbish reasons. My nephew was with me yesterday from California and he skis Utah quite a lot. He told me they love Deer Valley the most as the snow's always much better due to the fact they ban boarders. I'd never really thought of that before but wondered if there's any truth in it. (He's a skier and his two younger brothers board so I'd imagine he takes a pop at booarders as often as possible)

A snowHead

Interesting question. My personal guess is that SOME boarders do damage the piste more than MOST skiers, but only in SOME situations. I can't believe it's a huge factor, but maybe a big group of boarders can do some serious damage to a narrow slope that is particularly susceptible to having the snow scraped off.

I suspect that the reason resorts ban boarders is more down to marketing than their own snobbery. It gives them a niche and attracts the slightly older more affluent skier who dislikes skiing amongst boarders and also TENDS to spend more than the typically younger and less affluent boarder. As to why they prefer to avoid boarders I don't think it's so much a case of snobbery; I think many slightly slower skiers absolutely loathe the scraping sound of a boarder approaching from behind. They SOUND out of control.

Now, before any boarders or Scots get overexcited about the above, do please remember these are generalisations and my view of people's perceptions. Don't bother responding to say 'Well, I'm a rich boarder who never damages the piste" etc.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Ha ha that is so funny.

Skis are basically two thin snowboards, so I guess if snowboards damage the piste, Skis must do twice as much damage.

This kind of talk is just another angle to drive a bigger wedge between two sets of people who basically love the same thing.....getting out and enjoying the mountains rolling eyes

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The amount of swishing about done by intermediate skiers equals any damage by boarders.

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Well a boarder side slipping down the piste is probably messing up the slope more than a snow ploughing skier but once they get better and are riding down on the edge that is half the edges a skier uses so must be half the damage!

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Good skiers, of course, only ever have their weight on one ski on piste.

Do boarders carve or slide, pushing snow out of the way?

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Put the numbers of visitors say Meribel gets on skis in DV and see how trashed the pistes get. If DV has better surface conditions it's down to greater investment in grooming, low moisture snow and fewer skiers likely doing less mileage per day than the average resort. The snowboard theory is total horseshit.

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Good boarders carve as much as good skiers do

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Cant be true, most of the boarders I come across on piste are sitting down.

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This is worth a watch history of snowboarding, goes over the snobbery around snowboarding in the US:

http://youtube.com/v/o0nMxxRU6Js

From the OP's question. My answer as both an Engineer an a Skier with 100 snowboard days is YES under certain but most conditions.

Why - How a snowboard grips the snow , how a snowboarder balances on snow and the level of ability at which a snowboarder stops skidding and starts carving.

I'll start with how a snowboarder balances. This is where a snowboard is most different to a skier. A stationary skier is just standing there, with 2 planks and doesn't fall over just because they are stationary. But consider a snowboard, if you are on a slope and not blessed with very good balance you can't be stationary as you have only one edge in contact. A snowboard requires motion for balance as does a bicycle. But unlike the bicycle it doesn't have the benefit of a gyroscope to keep it up so you have to keep adjusting your position or push against something to stay up.
But why does all this pushing and balancing have any effect on the piste. Well a skier at many pints in the a turn and when running straight or just relaxing isn't trying to exert any force on the snow just to stay upright, they don't need to they won't just fall over. If the snowboarder isn't pushing against something they have to tightrope balance to stay up - unless it's completely flat a straight, but then you'd be scared of catching an edge. (Not the greatest description I know but snowboarding is dynamically challanged).

How a snowboard grips the snow? like a ski right? Er no, the left and right turn are two very different things, one you stand on your heals the other on your toes, and you are riding in boots so soft it would be like skiing in 1950's leather ski boots, maybe even less support than that! The snowboard itself has a very different flex pattern to a pair of skis, not just because your standing sideways instead of inline but where the flex changes in relation to length and relation to sidecut, yes a pure race carving board is somewhat similar to a ski but then that's not relevant here. A snowboard is so wide compared to a ski (not talking huge powder skis here) that it had a dynamic skis don't. Flex across it's width. But more than any of the above a snowboard was intended to ride IN snow not ON snow, hence the dynamics are all about pushing against the flat of the whole base not riding on an edge.
On a snowboard you are really up against it when trying to grip precicely on a piste , hence more skidding and piste damage.

When I used to teach both skiing and snowboarding I used to think that you could teach a fit determined person to snowboard at a level they could navigate the mountain on their second day, but regardless of how careful you were it was gonna hurt. But it might take a week to do the same with a skier but it wasn't going to turn them black and blue in the process. It takes longer to grasp the basics of skiing than snowboarding, but you can learn to ski without having to crash a lot. On a mellow piste an intermidiate skier can (on modern skis) start to carve, even if they are not they are not scraping their edge hard against the piste. A snowboarder of the same experience level will be dragging either on edge or the other against the piste to balance and would probably not think about trying to carve, it's not their thing.

So yes, snowboarders do damage piste more than skier, most of it is equipment physics not the individual. If you want proof, find a busy piste that's steep enough that you need to turn to avoid hurtling down the hill and sit and watch how skiers and snowboarders apply pressure eto the snow.

You know it makes sense.

This debate is always fun. My experience is boarders in general often either don't know or don't give much credence to the FIS code. Just a quick glance at youtube and the comments left by boarders backs this up, with constant complaints that crashes were caused by skiers "not looking uphill before turning", "cutting me up", "not leaving enough space for me to pass" - in short not understanding that anyone coming from behind has the responsibility to avoid those in front. I think lots of them simply cannot stop/change direction quickly enough to avoid collisions when someone does something unexpected. Frankly that is why Deer Valley ban them - their clients feel safer with no boarders around and frankly so do i (especially when skiing with kids). Sorry boarders!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I guess if a resort is privately owned they can discriminate as much as they like, as long as the discrimination is viewed as politically correct. Take for example the Whistler Blackcombe total band on all forms of smoking.

A snowHead

How are moguls created?

A snowHead

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This reeks of phrenology. Let me guess - studies out of Deer Mt. also prove that skiing awesomeness directly correlates to kit purchase at the onsite boutique and that consumption of large lunches at one of their award winning restaurants improve downhill speed and sexual function in fat guys over 50.

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Interesting reponses, quite emotive in some cases. Clearly a few nerves touched.

Here's my personal and humble opinions.

I think Discriminate is too strong a term. I think a resort has a choice to determine what it sets itself up for. If Someone decides to build a resort specifically for snowboarders with no skiers then that's fine by me. I dont feel they are discriminating against skiers, simply setting up a resort for teh type of sport and the ethos they want.

Do boarders ski recklessly, wildy and cut up the slopes? I think the answer lies in the age demographic of boarders. Most boarders are young. The young tendd to be wilder, less risk averse and take more chances. It's the same with drivers. If I'm honest I was a pretty carefree skier and driver between the ages of 17 and 21.

So is the problem boarders or mountain users of a certain age? I think it's probably the latter. Young skiers, and I 've skied with a lot are just as likley to ski too fast, cut up the slope, cut you up etc. etc. just as much as youbg boarders. So the problem isn't activity specific, it's age specific. should we ban young prople from the mountain? No, we were all young once and skied the ninety mile an hour snowplough perfected by the British at Sauze d'oulx in the 80s.....

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Zikomo, your post is a typical case of bias confirmation......when you see a snowboarder behave in a certain way you say to yourself and I'm sure to others "there you go, typical boarder" but when a skier does exactly the same thing, ignore it.

This comes up again and again with two sides digging away at each other like small children.

There will always be inconsiderate snowboarders and inconsiderate skiers alike.

After all it is free

I don't think boards cause more damage to pistes than skis. If you watch a typical skier make a turn, then watch a typical boarder make the same turn, you will see the tracks of the skis even on a firm piste, whereas you won't see tracks from the board. I think that skis are more effective at cutting into the piste than boards. OTOH, beginner boarders can scrape snow off pistes, albeit not much. I'd say on the whole it balances out.

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@Dave of the Marmottes, Laughing

@Idris, Nice post.
I aggree; IME snowboarders do learn quicker which enables them access to more pistes within less learning/experience time.
I also aggree that many snowboarders never get to the carving lessons. Many learners have learnt enough skills to get about safely and confidently without going up to the next level.
This style of riding is much more damaging

what the hell are piste bashers for

to the piste compared to carving...
but this is where I get confused.
When carving, a board is only using one edge at a time as opposed to 2.
When skiing 'pre-carve' skis use 2 edges to scrape the piste (which, for arguments sake is the whole length of one ski).
When boarding 'pre-carve' just the tail 3rd or toe 3rd of the board on one edge will scrape the piste.
Side slipping on a board only uses one edge.
Side slipping on skis uses 2.

So... it is all a load of rubbish... I could create as much damage to a piste using any type of sliding stuff... it all depends what i fancy doing!

You know it makes sense.

Talking about 80s attitudes, what about those weasels on monoskis, they're the worst! Laughing

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A snowHead

2 edges on skis means weight is distributed more evenly into the piste causing less surface tension per edge than a single edge from a SB.
I reckon the overall 'who's the worst' argument is negligible.

Of course I always thought resorts banned SB cause they're always falling off the lifts...

A snowHead

when I learnt to ski 25 odd years ago by an esf instructor (Lulu in val thorens, I can still picture her now!!!!) we were taught to stop by the side of a slope and on the brow of a hill so as visible to other slope users and at the time snowboarding was generally a small section of mountain participants, there were more mono skiers and telemarkers than snowboarders!!!.
Boarders then did not seem to get any formal instruction from ski schools as it was not widely available, and was passed on between mates, so it would not be any surprise that slope etiquette was not passed on either, as it was the case that boarders would congregate in the middle of the piste. nowadays the majority of snowboarders learn through "snow sport schools" so I would assume they are taught the same etiquette as skiers because there is a massive improvement from the early days.
I was taught to board from my wife, then girlfriend, but as we were all experienced skiers as well we would stop where it was safe to do so.
saying that, when I was guiding/ski companioning for a T/O it was stressed to us by our bosses to make sure the guests we were showing around the slopes would adhere to these rules as you would still get the odd numpty skier guest who would just stop in the most stupid place to take a photo of mont blanc in the distance!!!
we all need to get along and respect each others discipline and make sure there is a thriving industry with new enthusiasts taking up the sports we all love
snowHead too

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I always enjoy watching a good snowboarder, especially when they are carving, and believe they do not damage the piste at all, but that scraping noise made by what seems to be 99% of boarders does. It would seem lessons would be the answer and try and point one end ( or the other ) down the hill and not do the boarder equivalent of side slipping, which also scrapes the snow.
And makes you look out of your depth, applicable to both.

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@blahblahblah, agree when boarding is done properly.... freeride, deep powder, big in-control carved turns it looks awesome. The majority of boarders however look to be having a real tough time of it, and throwing themselves all over the place and hanging on for grim death in my experience. If I was a boarder I wouldn't be on piste, I really don't know why more don't play off the edge in the powder rather than being on piste. As for the flats and lifts well that must be a real bind, but each to their own I guess. If I wasn't a skier I'd be a boarder though!

One thing for sure I keep well out of the way when I hear boarders coming scraping behind, got hit in the back at relatively slow speed a couple of years ago by a big lad who was not in control and it made me very wary - it hurt!

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Its only damage if you don't know how to ride it.
Toofy Grin

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Do boarders damage the piste?

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