In a recent interview with the Sueddeutsche Zeitung, the legendary racer Hermann Maier gave an interesting quote about current rise of freeskiing at the expense of ski racing.
"Wenn ich mir nur mal die Freeskier, den Slopestyle anschaue: da wirbeln sie durch die Luft. Das ist spektakulär, spannend...DAS ist die große Konkurrenz. Da müssen die Alpinen langsam was tun."
Roughly translated to try and preserve meaning rather than word for word, that means:
"When I take a look at freeskiers in slopestyle, as they fly through the air... It's spectacular, exciting... That's the big competition. Slowly, alpine racing has to do/change something".
And in the light of the decline in racing's viewership and the massive growth in freeskiing his words appear to be reflecting the numbers. But does racing have to change to stay relevant? What can it do?
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Let me preface this by saying I love watching racing, I have huge respect for racers, I think DH is ridiculously gnarly, nothing else produces good skiers like racing, the skills on display are staggering, and I wish I could ski half as well as the racer guys.
However it does seem to be in decline... There will always be a strong fanbase in the core alpine countries, but where once young up and coming skiers aspired to be racers, these days most seem to be more into freeride and freestyle (all the skiers I know either quit racing to ski more powder, or never raced, but that's admittedly a self-selecting group...). From what I can see, freeride and particularly freestyle have a lot more popular and mainstream appeal too - X Games etc.
So, does racing need to something to 'stay relevant' to the kidz, and if so what? And should it?
Some pretty hilarious suggestions on the Newschoolers thread:
"You know how racers absorb the takeoffs on jumps as it's faster to stay on the snow? How about building something like Chad's Gap in the middle of a DH course so they HAVE to send it."
Another idea I did quite like was stop grooming the courses and make them race on 120mm skis...
Thoughts?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 27-11-15 14:02; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
no safety features, no gates no rules, no course prep, just a start and a finish, with a Le Mans start?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You know how racers absorb the takeoffs on jumps as it's faster to stay on the snow? How about building something like Chad's Gap in the middle of a DH course so they HAVE to send it
They used to do this in Kitzbühel in the Zielhang didn't they*. Until several people nearly killed themselves that is. I don't think it would be possible to make Kitz any more spectacular without seriously endangering the guys. Valgardena? Bring back the camel humps so more guys can have career ending crashes there? I don't think so.
*Just about the last thing the guys coming down the Streif needed was another jump right at the end of the run when their legs are already jelly anyway.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Why not have a 'race of champions' type series or event, best of each discipline taking on a different type (if not exactly the same as the core discipline) of course.
After all it is free
After all it is free
audience participation. Attach rockets to the back of the skis and have the audience vote for who gets to use them a la formula-e ?
mixed downhill biathlon withe the downhillers having targets on their backs and the nordics trying to catch them on x-country skis?
in fact, all of them on x-country skis?
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@ansta1, I'd quite like to see something like a Winter Pentathlon or similar - different events requiring different skill sets.
With regard to whats wrong with Racing - could it be that there isn't any room for personality in competition anymore. It seems more and more that the athletes which get the attention are now cookie-cutter copies of each other. With competitiveness so high and anything like personal style deemed as inefficient and therefore to be eliminated, where is the differentiation between one competitor and another. There are exceptions - people like Bode Miller obviously - but by-and-large there aren't many Names to cheer for or heroes to try to emulate.
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Quote:
I'd quite like to see something like a Winter Pentathlon or similar
@pam w, I'd have gone short-track speed skating, and XC rather than Biathlon (having a biathlon in a pentathlon seems mathematically wrong somehow ) but yeah thats the idea,
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Steilhang wrote:
@clarky999,
Quote:
You know how racers absorb the takeoffs on jumps as it's faster to stay on the snow? How about building something like Chad's Gap in the middle of a DH course so they HAVE to send it
They used to do this in Kitzbühel in the Zielhang didn't they*. Until several people nearly killed themselves that is. I don't think it would be possible to make Kitz any more spectacular without seriously endangering the guys. Valgardena? Bring back the camel humps so more guys can have career ending crashes there? I don't think so.
*Just about the last thing the guys coming down the Streif needed was another jump right at the end of the run when their legs are already jelly anyway.
Wasn't my idea - they get pretty ridiculous air in Kitzbühel anyway IMO!
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 27-11-15 14:04; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
World Cup ski racing has been boring for a long time. Aside from Kitzbuhel, Schladming and Wengen, it's bereft of atmosphere. And the courses have been sanitised to the extent that start number 48 looks much the same as start number 1. Compare Klammer-era footage of Kitzbuhel with today and you'll see what's missing.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
totally random bib draw so that there's more chance for newcomers to break through (not popular with the top manufacturers though) and you don't end up with the same names on the podium all the time. Courses that aren't necessarily 'concrete', the main trouble is that for a wider audience of even regular skiers, they don't actually understand whats going on ok downhill excepted as that's pretty obvious.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
under a new name wrote:
no safety features, no gates no rules, no course prep, just a start and a finish, with a Le Mans start?
I believe that's called the Freeride world tour...
Personally while I'm not a racer and much like the OP am more part of the new schoolers generation I love watching the downhill, GS and Super G. I don't think it it needs to change as theres very few things that require more balls than strapping on 200+ sticks and throwing yourself down an ice sheet. That and nobody can call skier or boarder X boring.
The things I think that have become pointless and formalistic are ariels and modern mogul skiing. Moguls should be more aking to hotdogging again.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 27-11-15 10:59; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
In Tele there is a jump in each of the races -- which you have to jump --- and cover a min distance, and land in tele...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I love watching ski-cross. Mass-start alpine should be next.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Racing is the pinnacle of most sporting disciplines - everything else is for the people not good enough to race!
Joking aside, I only really like sports where a score, best time or first over the line wins. To me most of the other things are just games where a judge decides your position!
I'm probably old fashioned but to me racers are the heroes and the others are just posers!
no safety features, no gates no rules, no course prep, just a start and a finish, with a Le Mans start?
I believe that's called the Freeride world tour...
Personally while I'm not a racer and much like the OP am more part of the new schoolers generation I love watching the downhill, GS and Super G. I don't think it it needs to change as theres very few things that require more balls than strapping on 200+ sticks and throwing yourself down an ice sheet. That and nobody can call skier or boarder X boring.
The things I think that have become pointless and formalistic are ariels and modern mogul skiing. Moguls should be more aking to hotdogging again.
No timing (and one at a time) in the FWT. Though adding a time element without gates or mandatory features would just encourage them to simply straight-line (not that Jeremy Heitz etc need much encouraging!) everything, which would also get boring.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Sports should be designed for the people who want to do them. Not for couch-potatoes who might want to watch them.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@dogwatch, I think Maier's point was that it seems both participation AND viewership are dropping off?
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So many ideas, so little time. I think spending half an hour with the box set of 'Apocalypse Snow' would see snowsports going in a much more entertaining direction.
Racing is still *massive* in Austria, CH, France and Italy (like premier league football here).
Big crowds / sponsorship / tv etc.
Of course freestyle and freeride are providing competition for audience.
However it is notable all of the top level athletes in those "new" disciplines have came from junior race programmes.
Candide Thovex /Kaj Zackrisson / Jon Olsen were all ex ski racers when kids.
Like the darts they just to rebrand FIS racing a little for the modern generation.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Racing is still *massive* in Austria, CH, France and Italy (like premier league football here).
Big crowds / sponsorship / tv etc.
Of course freestyle and freeride are providing competition for audience.
However it is notable all of the top level athletes in those "new" disciplines have came from junior race programmes.
Candide Thovex /Kaj Zackrisson / Jon Olsen were all ex ski racers when kids.
Like the darts they just to rebrand FIS racing a little for the modern generation.
+1
Not sure if this already happens, but if they packaged a WC weekend like they do Opening & Closing Weekend at Ischgl then that would do wonders for more spectators.
And the prize money for athletes in racing far exceeds that in freestyle and freeride.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
How about, at the end of the season, the top eight (or maybe 16) in the rankings qualify for a knock out event. They get paired up and go head to head til one is left standing and holding a cup.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Mike Pow wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Racing is still *massive* in Austria, CH, France and Italy (like premier league football here).
Big crowds / sponsorship / tv etc.
Of course freestyle and freeride are providing competition for audience.
However it is notable all of the top level athletes in those "new" disciplines have came from junior race programmes.
Candide Thovex /Kaj Zackrisson / Jon Olsen were all ex ski racers when kids.
Like the darts they just to rebrand FIS racing a little for the modern generation.
+1
Not sure if this already happens, but if they packaged a WC weekend like they do Opening & Closing Weekend at Ischgl then that would do wonders for more spectators.
And the prize money for athletes in racing far exceeds that in freestyle and freeride.
Sponsorship money too.
However that also used to be the case for windsurfing, which has now been overtaken by surfing. Ok technically different sports, but similar situation maybe.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
One of the best ski events I saw was 3 years ago in St Anton, Redbullhuttenrallye. 4 skiers skier-cross, le mans start.....run 50m from start and jump into bindings then off..... jumps, fat skis, berms and big schuss's on daft un-prepped terrain. Darren Ralves and the Matt's, helicopters and DJ's, big TV spectacle, free schnaps etc. I've only ever seen one DH race and that was in Val D'Isere - mens DH on the Bellvarde a few years ago, awesome experience too, fantastic racing but flat atmosphere. There's nothing like race day in Austria, slopes are empty, everyone in the restaurants watching TV - I'd love to see the Hahnenkamm one day and also the night skiing at Schladming.
@dode, Good idea, it gets pretty boring when the championship is over 4 races before the end of the campaign.
I have to say I prefer FWT these days to ski racing, albeit any snow on TV is no bad thing.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Interesting to hear skiers' views on that, as a snowboarder who owns a race board or two.
I think that what's worth watching and what's worth doing are entirely separate things. I ride powder a lot, but it's not a race and it's not a spectator sport.
I dislike aerial ballet, which is what snowboarding competition's been for quite a while. If I'm going to watch gymnastics, I want to see fit women in lycra, thanks.
Kids know what a race is, and spinny tricks aren't it. We do have boarder-cross, that's hugely synthetic: it's hardly just racing down a mountain.
The lack of a race level competitive aspect to snowboarding does have an effect on the consumer side as there's no trickle-down of technology. So although no race since 2005 (?) has been won on a glass fibre board, all you can buy in most places is precisely that.
Skiing? I've no idea where that'll go, but my Austrian mates seem to quite like it the way it is.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@speed098, WTF is a Chinese downhill?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fullenglish wrote:
@speed098, WTF is a Chinese downhill?
Sad I know but I still have the movie along with Snow Patrol, the Apocolypse ski and many of the Stump and Miller films. Love digging them out every now and then they bring back so many memories
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Back on topic I love the format of the tour de ski with the inner city/town sprints that form some of the stages, and the final up the Alpe Cermis.
Building on @under a new name 's suggestion, why not strap rockets to skis and race 'uphill'? That way, not only do they have to have the skills of the terrain, but also conserve enough fuel for the top or else they will run out and slide backwards. Wait...that's another idea...race backwards! Going to patent those ideas. Remember, you heard it here first!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Don Keeblessuggests Racing is the Formula 1 of skiing.
Maybe. But Formula 1 has a pre-race stage where the drivers compete for position on the starting grid, and then on the day all the drivers go off at once.
That pre-race stage is not the most exciting bit and is less attended that the race itself.
Downhill just goes with the timed pre-race bit, and then fails to run the actual race.
When Downhill began, all the racers went off together - as they do in Freestyle, and why Freestyle is gaining popularity.
dogwatch suggests "sports should be designed for the people who want to do them. Not for couch-potatoes who might want to watch them."
But it is the couch potatoes who pay for the sport, whether by buying tickets or providing an audience for the the advertisers who sponsor.
Ski Racing doesn't really need any gimmicks, it just needs to be aired on Free TV stations so everyone can watch.
The decline of many of our sports, Cricket, Golf, Motor racing etc is due to pay to view TV, in my opinion.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Personally, I love the racing and I wish I could actually watch it! Stewart Woodward above has it spot on!
I enjoyed watching the skier cross in the Olympics too but not fussed about the acrobatic stuff. Yes it's clever but just doesn't hold my interest as much.
After all it is free
After all it is free
In my view any event that has judges, rather than timing/counting/measuring officials, isn't a sport in the true sense, it is a form of entertainment. I'm not questioning the skill involved, its just not sport.
Many years ago I was in Wengen to watch Lauberhorn World Cup, in the Pirmin Zurbriggen years. I found that it wasn't until the skiers went past at close quarters that you got anything of the speed and skill involved. You know they are going to be going quickly from watching previous television coverage, but are not prepared for the speed. I suppose it would be a bit like driving at 70mph when everyone else is doing 40mph, and thinking I'm going really fast, then someone goes past at 150mph, and having no comprehension of the skills involved.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
For anyone that wants to come to Kitzbuhel in 2017 (already booked for 16) rather than letting the house out for the week to a family, if you pm me and theres enough interest, Ill organise a Hahnenkamm trip, Its definetly one of those things you have to do if you are a skier. As has been said, its not until you are right there you realise how frigging fast they are going. And all on a vertical ice rink to boot.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
PowderAdict wrote:
In my view any event that has judges, rather than timing/counting/measuring officials, isn't a sport in the true sense, it is a form of entertainment.
This. Kiddies know what a race is: who gets to the bottom first. "style points" do not matter. And considering the corruption level in all sport, you can see why kiddies don't rely on "judges" to figure out who won.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) but yeah thats the idea,
