Vail- Instructor Unionization, CEO Tipping "Expected" Policy

A snowHead

Lots going on this side of the pond regarding Instructor wages, Tipping Policies & Unionization Efforts-

In June, regarding instructor compensation, Vail CEO Rob Katz told employees:

"Base wages have to keep up with the market"
"Typically, as you raise the price of something, gratuities typically go up. Most people pay a percentage"
"Can our company do a better job of explaining to our guests that a gratuity is expected...this will be a priority for us"

This was basically in response to unhappy ski and snowboard instructors who have been paid about half their Aspen-Snowmass counterparts (where lesson prices are significantly LOWER than Vail or Beaver Creek).

See the video at

from

https://vimeo.com/131569051
The password for all Summer 2015 Inside Edge videos is Passion and the above quotes start around the 3 minute mark with some other interesting stuff just before that. There was a social media sharing button on the video that said to include the password when sharing, so no deep dark corporate secrets here.

In July, the Aspen-Snowmass Ski & Ride School announced a new pay grid starting apprentice instructors at $18-$23/hr (+ $6.50/hr for Private Requests) and full certs at $33-$43/hr (+$7-7.50/hr for Private Requests)

Earlier this week, Vail Ski & Snowboard Director bobby Murphy announced the following by email with a share button at the bottom:

Hello Instructors!

I hope you are all enjoying the days of fall and gearing up for another epic season on mountain. Your first day back at Vail will be here before we know it, and in anticipation of that, I wanted to let you know about a few exciting updates regarding our Instructors’ compensation for the season ahead.

To consistently deliver the Experience of a Lifetime to our guests requires that we attract and retain the best talent – that absolutely includes our Ski School Instructors who are responsible for igniting, or progressing, the love of skiing and snowboarding for our guests.

As we communicated earlier this summer:
Last year we announced significant changes with a 20% increase in the private lesson incentive and a 25% increase in the group return incentive, which were in effect for the 2014-2015 season.
We also announced changes in the status system that will now allow all certified Instructors to qualify for S1 and S2 status based on their productivity. With the new thresholds that we communicated last fall, and more Instructors generating even higher performance this season, we will have more Instructors qualified for the S1 and S2 categories for the 2015-2016 season than ever before.
In June, we announced increased wages for all new entry level non-certified Instructors, rental techs and indoor staff attendants going into the 2015-2016 season.

In addition to merit increases for 2015-2016, today, we have a few additional changes to announce for our Vail and Beaver Creek Instructors:

New Entry-Level Base Wages:
Compensation Change

Former Rate ($/hr)

NEW Rate ($/hr)

Non-Certified Pros

$9.95

$10.50
(5.5% increase)

Level 1 Certified Pros

$10.95

$12.00
(9.6% increase)

Level 2 Certified Pros

$12.95

$15.00
(15.8% increase)

Level 3 Certified Pros

$14.95

$18.00
(20.4% increase)

Private & Group Lesson Incentives & Increases
New this season, all Vail Instructors will receive an increase of $1/hour for private lesson requests, changing from $6/hour to $7/hour (which totals a 40% increase over the last two years). In addition, we will provide an increase of $1.50 per group lesson return, changing from $7.50 to $9 (a 50% increase over the last two years).

Gratuities Going Forward
We have heard from both our Instructors and guests that there are questions and confusion about tipping Instructors following a lesson – so we are taking steps to help clarify (and we hope, increase) Instructors’ gratuities.

First, at the end of a lesson, guests will now be able to charge a gratuity via credit card at any of our ski and snowboard school offices. Call center agents and location sellers will be trained to answer questions about tipping and provide guidance when asked. These gratuities will be paid out on the Instructor’s next pay check and applicable taxes will be deducted.

Second, to raise awareness about the appropriateness of tipping our Instructors we will provide information to guests about providing their Instructor a gratuity on various collateral and in numerous messages including: our website; online pricing tables/payment pages; pre-arrival
emails; and printed brochures.

Lastly, gratuity guidelines will be addressed in our FAQ section on our ski & snowboard school webpage.

We truly have the most talented teachers in the industry and I am excited about what these changes represent for our team and our Instructors. Thank you for your enthusiasm and commitment to our team, our school and our guests – it’s going to be a great 2015-2016 season!
In the coming days you’ll receive more details from your Manager outlining next steps to return for the 2015-2016 season. Should you have any questions before coming back on board in the upcoming weeks, please don’t hesitate to contact me directly or the school at vbcinstnews@vailresorts.com.

Look forward to seeing you soon,
Bobby

Yesterday, the Vail Daily ran a story about unionization efforts at Beaver Creek (owned by Vail Resorts) http://www.vaildaily.com/news/18726621-113/beav-ski-instructors-working-to-unionize
[img]http://www.vaildaily.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.clsSTREAMOID=mIT7Hh9d9XfL4xqoWbghIM$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYuHf3e9RBtyrxcfedZfd5QaWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXFluCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg[/img]

and Channel 9 News Denver covered the story in at least 2 of their broadcasts http://www.9news.com/story/sports/ski/2015/10/22/beaver-creek-ski-instructor-unions/74425456/
[img]http://cdn.tegna-tv.com/-mm-/3d1705eac81041e4c13bf903e3f1a55fa227c187/c=242-0-1678-1080&r=115x86&r=540&c=540x304/local/-/media/2015/10/22/KUSA/KUSA/635811385491527044-ski.jpg[/img][/url]

A snowHead

Ski lessons that are the experience of a lifetime; instructors that are the most talented in the industry....AAAARSOME Very Happy

!!

Er, apologies to those affected, but don't think it would ever have crossed my mind - stateside or otherwise - to tip for a ski lesson... Confused

All still such an alien culture for most of us Brits.... rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@mountainaddict, agree, although I get the concept that if you promote performance related earnings shouldn't that be the responsibility of the business not the consumer?

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In America, if you call a plumber to your house and he charges you $200, are you supposed to give him$250?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

No, he would be expecting $300 from you. Ha Ha.

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No, I wouldn't tip the plumber, but I'd tip a golf or tennis pro. And I do tip my ski instructor (well, I did the last time I had an actual lesson).

Considering how much it costs to be a ski instructor, it's about time wages reflected the actual cost of the lesson.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

What's the cost of the lessons to the client/customer/punter?

After all it is free

Ski schools should pay all instructors a decent respectable wages.

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How do you evaluate if they had gone above what is needed?

I tip hair dressers, cabs and waiters/waitresses, porters and my bin men. I do not tip my golf instructor, nor would I a ski instructor. I would consider the cost of the lesson enough. How he/she gets paid is their deal. Nobody tips me at work, and I am not having a great time skiing , drinking and banging birds everyday.

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I don't tip my ski instructor in Europe and I remember having a private lesson in Whistler a few years ago and it was more expensive than France, from memory it was over $500 per day and that's in addition to ski passes, buying the instructor hot drinks throughout the day etc. Where does this money go? As has already been said, surely Mr Vail should stump up the extra dough, not the customer. The OP sounds like customers are going to be shamed into tipping.

I'm not tight, and tip well in restaurants (only if I get good service) but in my mind tipping doesn't translate to ski lessons which are already horrendously expensive.

Tipping certainly should not be expected but should be a pleasant surprise for service above and beyond.

snow reports

What @trainee snowboard jedi says kinda makes sense.

It sniffs of corporate America taking advantage of tipping culture, running schools, paying instructors pittance, charging through the nose and raking profits, meanwhile instructor must shame punters into tipping so they can afford gas.

Is it not possible to get private lessons outside ski school system? Or do the franchise system prohibit competition?

If Julia Mancuso gave a lesson that ended up in the hot tub , I would tip her.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@Filthyphil30k, Laughing

A snowHead

"Bobby" needs a hard slap and told to pay his staff properly and not create uncomfortable situations for staff and customers.

A snowHead

Private lessons in Arlberg Austria. Some instructors receive tips or there lunch/drinks bought for them but it depends where their clients are from,class & culture.

A reccomendation can also be considerd a tip.

Certainly not expected purely voluntary.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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The US is a very different world and the tipping culture is engrained - one website I saw suggested that if you only tip 10% on a meal then you are sufficiently disappointed that you should have asked to see the manager to complain! Something you just get used to but I have found that a sensible tip does get you really good service in the US - we can argue that you should get it anyway but the reality is that many US staff in the industry are on minimum wage (or below?) and tips get that up to a living wage so they are going to make the effort where they get a return.

Europe is slightly different..... Thank god....

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

$650 for 3 hours of private lesson seems pretty eye-wateringly expensive to me Shocked

and then you're expected to tip 15-25% on top of that?? Clearly Vail is catering to the more affluent end of the scale.

You can hire a guide in Europe for the whole day for less than that, and most I've been with will do a bit of teaching during the day too, some are fully qualified ski instructors as well - not the same as a private lesson but given the skill and experience they have you are getting far more for your money. It's generally expected that you buy their lunch and I don't have a problem with that but if the weather is good I usually suggest everyone brings packed lunches so we can eat out on the hill somewhere. Much cheaper, more fun, more time for skiing and in my experience the guide usually prefers it too. If stopping in a restaurant quite often they will comp the guide or at least give them a good discount anyway. After a great day out with a guide I'm happy to give them a bit extra, probably about 10%. They're not relying on it to make a living wage, it's just beer money. Recommendations and repeat business are far more important I think.

Yes, the tipping culture in America can be difficult to get your head around and has led to many uncomfortable situations when I have been over there (not skiing). If the price you're paying for the 'product' seems reasonable then I find it easier to differentiate between paying for that and the service received so I'll be more inclined to pay extra if the service has been good. But at £140/hr for a lesson in Vail I would expect the instructor to be compensated appropriately already. Never tipped an instructor in Europe either and don't think I would. A guide is different for me, maybe because I place more value on their skill/experience and the fact they are often putting themselves at risk and I trust them to save my life if I go down a crevasse or something.

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Tipping culture is very different in the US - whether you would tip your ski instructor in Europe is really irrelevant.

Some actual numbers from a US ski instructor, albeit a couple of years old:

Base pay - $16.25 (Level 2 PSIA with accredidations, went up $0.25 from the previous year due to a $1 increase across the board, but only got $0.25 since had already been given a merit pay rise in a previous year).
Private Request Lesson - +$5 for the first 25 hours of such lessons in the season, increasing by $1 for each additional 25 hours to a maximum of +$13 (ie, after 200 hours of requests).
For this individual all lessons for the season were private or private requests. Private lessons cost $650 for a full day (6.5 hours).
Maximum pay per hour - $29.25.
Maximum pay per day - $210.37 ((6.5 x 29.25) + (1 x lunch at base pay) + dressing out and in pay (0.5 hrs at $8/hr)).

The private request incentive was great for those who could get it, but more than 200 hours was rare and only a couple of people got that many by the end of the season.

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@skinanny, the cost per hour of a lesson in Vail is more than twice that in your example and yet, if I'm reading the numbers in the OP correctly, a Level 2 instructor in Vail will now be paid a base rate of $15/hr which is still less than your example from 2 years ago. That's a significantly bigger cut for Vail or have I got it completely wrong?

Like I said, if the price I'm paying for the lesson seems reasonable to start with then I'm more inclined to see the service as something I'd pay extra for. So at $100/hr I'd be more likely to tip, at $216/hr I'd be questioning why Vail won't pay a better wage to start with or want a convincing reason as to why the lessons in Vail were so much more expensive. Given a Level 2 instructor in both cases I can't see how one would be twice as good. Would be interesting to know what resort your example is taken from.

Obviously I'm simplifying the situation, but just trying to explain my viewpoint as a 'consumer' - and in particular a consumer from a culture that is not used to tipping in the US way. Because from where I stand it just looks like a big company knowing what they can get away with - both how much money they can extract from their customers and how little they have to pass on to their staff.

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If at that price point tips are needed to supplement instructors wages, then the system is rotten and by tipping customers don't really help instructors but validate the rotten system further. Now that I know I definitely wouldn't tip. If Vail Resorts selling their lessons as given by "pros" they should at least pay the "pro" rates. At the moment my cleaner earns more.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@never summer,

A snowHead

While the tipping culture is well established in the US, IMHO ski schools had exploited that culture the most shameless way! Marketing "professional" instructors while paying them no more than waitress, expecting the clients' tip to make up the pitiful base wage is the worst practice I know of.

It's one thing to factor the food price in restaurants to reflect the wages of the basically unskilled waitress, quite another do the same with INSTRUCTORS of any kind!

I don't know, this maybe a reflection of American culture that basically doesn't value the passing of experience. Teachers also has low social status and relatively low pay given their education. So it's not too surprising ski instructors are treated similarly.

The rub is, teaching is a very rewarding experience. So there's a steady supply of willing apprentice teachers/instructors to allow whatever school to exploit even experienced teachers/instructors. So any teacher/instructor who can find other employment leaves the teaching & instructing career.

The public, in the mean time, believes ALL teachers/instructors are rubbish anyway (because the majority the clients encounter are inexperienced ones). So they don't bother taking any lesson!

A snowHead

It's the classic law of supply and demand - America will always push the envelope as fundamentally only interested in 💲💲💲whereas Europeans interested in cash but also more than a passing interest in 🚬🚬🍾🍾👠🍮

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Perhaps this is one reason why more people si in France now than the US.

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Maybe I'm a slow learner but it strikes me that the whole tipping system is really just a way for the employers to say that their workers take home pay isn't their problem.

i.e. their whole pay position becomes something along the lines of: "We don't pay that much but if you can get your customers to tip you well then you should be OK."

Then what happens is if you aren't making enough money then the fault is all down to the employee "You just aren't good enough / persuasive enough / keeping your customers happy enough/etc" or the customers "times are tough and people just aren't tipping like they used too."

I suspect that somehow you really need to get rid of tipping from being a major source of income and get the employers to take responsibility for paying a proper wage. I have to admit that it doesn't sound like an easy task to me given how ingrained the whole tipping system is in US culture.

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Tipping culture is certainly very different in the US and seems to have snowballed over the past 20 years to the extent that you hear of waiters chasing customers out to their cars to yell at them if they've under tipped. It seems it is far from a gratuity in many cases and that's before the straightforward begging of the tips jar by the till in a cafeteria or coffee shop.

The fundamental problem with ski instruction is that it's held out to be a profession but is paid like unskilled labour in the US. It's clear to see why customers can be confused.

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Not been to US but Canada numbers amaze me. As people above have said crazy low wages for people that have taken years of work to get the qualifications.

Private day lesson in Whistler this year coming CAD$559 it is ridiculous that the instructor gets about $200. How can the mountain justify the $359 it gets. On top of paying for a lift ticket. Yes I do tip but feel it is wrong that I need to. Just like in restaurants and expecting a 10% tip. Mind Waitresses that do a good job in Whistler must be the the best paid in resort !

With the cost of living in resort (there is no where else to live!) it is very hard to get enough money to do anything else but work & eat. They do offer some subsidised living and some food but it is still a struggle to make ends meet.

As US/Canada mountain are monopolies unlike Europe they can charge whatever they like. Provided idiot customers are willing to pay. So unless everyone boycotts lessons it is never going to change. But if you boycott then they don't get paid as they are on zero hr contracts.

After all it is free

@boac, you are reading it correctly. To be fair to Vail, there are some long time instructors who are paid a bit more but a full cert with less than 8 years, cert 2s with less than 5 years, etc will pretty much be at the new minimum for their cert level. Vail also pays $7/hr for request privates, but this is similar or below to many other resorts and doesn't really reflect all the extra off the clock time you spend communicating with these clients.

To be clear about American culture, it is not intuitive for new skiers to tip either when they pay so much for a lesson. Also, a lot of our clients are from cultures where tipping is much less common.

@Jake43, In most instances, Vail's mark-up is over $700 on all day privates. You are correct about the monopolies granted by the US Forest Service on publicly owned land. The permits they give the resorts to operate are suppose to be non exclusive and the USFS retains the right to review and regulate prices.

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Vail- Instructor Unionization, CEO Tipping "Expected" Policy

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