Boot & Ski Selection for Piste / Off -piste / Ski Touring Trip

A snowHead

I am off in January for a 3 month skiing trip to Canada followed by Italy/ Switzerland and looking for advice of ski boots.

Currently I believe that I am a low intermediate skier 75kg (165lbs) & 177cm (5’ 10”). This trip for me is about learning good ski technique and getting to places where I want to be. So I have lined up the following:

I am traveling from Australia, to Canada, Italy, Switzerland & France. So I am looking for a one ski/boot quiver to minimize the kit I will lug around as well as costs. I understand this will result in compromises being made.

What I have learnt from viewing the various North American & European forums is:

My questions are:

K2

What are your suggestions and guidance?

Many thanks in advance.

A snowHead

Harbord,

the most important comment on boots is get ones that fit your feet, find a good boot shop and then trust the guys in there, it is almost impossible to recommend a boot without your feet in front of me (attached to the rest of you before anyone comments), seriously consider footbeds and possibly an after market liner like zipfit with the amount of skiing you are doing. I would avoid surefoot if you can (they tend to go for the extreme grind it method of bootfitting(not always a good thing) if you contact the customer service dept at www.superfeet.com (it is their home area) they may be able to recommend somewhere.

get hold of some moleskin or spenco adhesive knit use this for the emergency protection of areas that are rubbing, hot spots etc before blisters appear.

as for skis both the ones you suggest get great revues go for the 174 beyond that i will leave this one up to other snowheads to make comment (i missed most of the industry test last year due to job changes)

Bindings, the problem you have is realistically you cannot put a touring boot (SAFELY) into an alpine binding so save your money and get the freerides on from day one!

sounds like you are going to have a great season so enjoy it Toofy Grin

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CEM thanks for your advice.

I do a lot of running and have spent a lot of time & effort perfecting my use of custom Orthotic insoles for every day use as well as running / hiking. So my custom orthotics will be going into my ski boots like all the other boots and shoes that I wear.

In each of the guiding companies equipment notes, Sarpa Matrix are constantly recommended as a touring boot. My understanding is that the Sarpa Matrix is a relatively soft boot. So how would that effect the 4 weeks of on-piste instruction? I want to progress my skiing not hold it back. Garmont Adrenalin G-fit 2 is another boot that has been suggested as a solution.

Obviously the acid test for boots is in the actual fitting and only a good boot fitter can really give me advice, once they see my feet. However I want to be informed before I see a boot fitter. Snowcovers at Whistler have been recommended as offering excellent boot fitting.

In my first few weeks I expect to fall often. Are Fritschi Diamir Freeride bindings, on a suitable DIN setting, any less ‘safe’ for my knees etc than the standard bindings that are likely to come with the B2 or Recons, ignoring the fact the Recons have binding rails as standard.

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Harbord,

have the guys in the shop check that your orthotics are suitable for your boots running orthoses are not always suitable for ski boots (but they may be) you understand the benefits so you are half way there, I have heard of snowcovers, no feedback though so let's open this one up to the floor...... anyone out ther heard anything good or bad?

both boots are good, as you say it comes down to fit, look at options for stiffening the boot with a flex plate or additional clip
Bindings. DIN is a standard so they have to fall within tolerance I can't see any reason to say they are unsafe or less safe, no doubt someone opinionated out there will have a dozen reasons!!!

Toofy Grin

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Harbord, welcome to snowHead

The freeride bindings will see you through no problem, they're designed as an AT binding so you are comprimising alpine performance but it doesn't sound like you're going to racing or hucking huge cliffs so don't hesitate to use them from the start. I know people skiing pretty hard on Dynafit bindings - that is scary!

With the boot you need to try a good selection of touring boots to try. Hybrid boots like the Adrenalin you mention are becoming more popular, also look for Scarpa Torpedo (Tornado?), there is one more brand that makes a hybrid boot but I forget who. Theses sound great and I will be trying them when my current alpine boots die. I tour in my alpine boots but mainly only day tours and is probably 5% of my skiing. You shouldn't have too much of an issue with a dedicated touring boot either, there are many skiers skiing on them as an everyday boot, lots of people are now accepting ski boots don't *need* to be as stiff as we were wearing in the 80's. Having said that if you don't like it you can do as CEM says and stiffen it up with ease.

In terms of ski there are many good options for you. As everyone else reading this will know I would reccomend something a little wider underfoot, I know when I go touring and I get a nice pitch of unspoilt powder on the way down I want to tear it up, of course going up hill can be harder. I need to speak to a friend of mine for another snowHead

about a selection of skis that are light enough to tour on but burly enough to ski hard (ie not a pair of uber light Hagens) so I'll let you know when the info comes up.

Good Luck. It sounds like quite some trip. Twisted Evil

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Fritschi bindings (properly adjusted) are much safer than squeezing a touring boot into a downhill binding whose toe piece won't go high enough to accommodate a touring boot properly. SOME DH bindings can just about accommodate a touring binding but can't remember which.

Not sure you'll need the Freerides - the Explores are pretty much the same except the DIN only goes to 10. Doubt you'll need more than that so if you can get a deal on the Explores don't overlook them.

I don't think it is ideal to try to improve your skiing in touring boots. Some stiffer boots have come onto the market recently but they're still pretty floppy compared with a decent pair of DH boots. I thought I could get away with touring boots only but changed my mind pretty quickly. Does sound like you are orienting yourself firmly towards the touring so maybe you'll be happy to live with the compromise.

Sounds like a great trip - have fun!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

There's a lot of good information on Pistehors

Sounds like a great trip, hope you've planned some decent recovery periods in there, its pretty intense!

After all it is free

Harbord, awesome plan. I hope you have an awesome time.

My 2p worth. Unless you're particularly large, I would think that the Garmont Adrenalines or Scarpa Tornados will be stiff enough on piste. My understanding is that they're about as stiff as your average mid-upper intermediate/soft advanced boot. Boots have become softer over recent years anyway so unless you're an old fogey like me then you should be fine. Try many pairs on and compare how the freeride models compare to pure touring and alpine ones. I have several friends who ski well on touring boots.

Bindings? Go straight to the touring ones. They should be fine. I have several friends who ski well and happily on touring bindings. (Including a few guides and pisteurs...)

Skis, ah, here it gets interesting. Many on these forums will suggest that they forward is in fact a pair of long snowboards. I disagree.

Check with the shops in Whistler. Most touring skis are still narrow compared with "freeride", "all-mountain" models. Mostly because people who tour value performance over image and know that they're not going to spend their time all the time in perfect Alaskan powder chutes.

Most snow while touring is challenging, wind blown, over heated, icy, under heated, wet, dry, crusty, powdery or sludgy. Often all in the same descent. Hey, if it was all perfect powder they'd all be doing it.

Also, your climb/descent ration means that most of the time you're carrying those skis uphill (whether on feet or not). 5 out of your 8 weeks are going to be spent doing just that.

The nice thing is that many touring skis are now extremely performant on piste as well. Invest in those. Ask someone else for recommendations.

Here endeth the sermon!!!

I'm a tad shorter and lighter than you. Haven't had many days on my Garmont Arenalins yet but can't honestly say there is a vast difference between them and my alpine boots on piste. Garmont and Scarpa suit different foot shapes, I'd say try both and see what fits your feet better (you may not be able to rent the Arenalin or the Tornado models but there should be a model available from each manufacturer that is very similar). The only real way to test is to take them on the piste and on a tour - it might cost you more with rental etc but then you should end up with what suits you best (not what some Mancunian on the internet thinks). If you can afford it I'd use the trip to test skis / bindings (saves you lugging the skis around too) then buy what you need from end of sale bargins when the new colour for 06/07 comes out.

Fat skis = fat smiles, but as David Murdoch says at your weight / size a thinner all rounder might be better.

Another thing to think about when touring is the touring speed of the group and the sort of terrain they will be covering. You should have the advantage of being fitter and should have found your ski legs by the time you get round to the touring. If you are above the average fitness of the group and the hikes up are short with the aim of hitting powder stashes the fatter skis will be more fun on the way down. If the others are fitter and the tours are long over all sorts of different terrain then a lighter/thinner setup will be easier on the way up (there's no point having heavy fat skis if you are too knackered to ride 'em). Ask the guide what he thinks and try to get an idea of the ability of others in the group and the type of terrain you are likely to cover. Of course the weather conditions at the actual time of the trip can affect the final choice of ski.

I've heard people say
a) many learners use too stiff a ski boot which hampers their development by limiting ankle flex.
b) touring boots are too soft and don't flex as well as an alpine boot.
as I said before, best to try and see what works for you.

Sounds like a awesome trip, have fun.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Further opinion on touring vs DH boot debate:

I acknowledge that lots of good skiers use touring boots all the time. I would say that a "low intermediate" skier will find it easier to improve quickly in DH boots than in touring boots.

The one thing that we can conclude from this is that finding the perfect balance between uphill and downhill performance of a touring set-up is not an easy task. I've been looking for years and still haven't got there (although the new dynafit carbon skis are looking good Very Happy

)

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Arno, could be, no argument, don't quite see why though.

I think your conclusion is bang on.

The only solution is to

1. retire to the alps

2. decide each morning what you're going to be doing most of; climbing to ski or climbing to see?

snow reports

Once again, thanks for all the advice.

My intention is to be in Europe from mid Feb until April (maybe late April). I have also scheduled rest ‘weeks’ in between the guided trips. In general I am relatively fit however there will always be pain & suffering in the first weeks but I am used to that. I expect, given the duration of my season, that I will be better acclimatized and fitter than most members of the ski tour groups.

Boot Fitting
In general I do not have problematic feet. My podiatrist has guided me to Mizuno (Narrow) rather than the likes of Brooks (wide) running shoes. My existing custom orthotics will be no problem in ski boots. Thanks for the info on the Garmont Adrenalin & Scarpa Tornado. Any other "Freerando" boots to consider?

Ski Selection
Yes I have seen I noted the discussion re ‘Mid Fat’ and Fat skis. Obviously fat will help an intermediate in powder etc but at the expense of energy used to carry or skin long distances. The purpose of the 2 weeks off-piste instruction is to develop technique before going on multi-day ski tours, so I think the B2's 116/78/105 is a reasonable compromise.

Binding Selection
Thanks for the encouragement to go straight to the Fritschi Diamir. Since I might need to conserve weight the Explore might be better than the Freeride, however I still need brakes so the weight difference may not be that much. Apart being lighter, lower height and the max DIN what are the differences between the Explore & Freeride?

I would be hiring DH boots and skis for the first 3 weeks and may even think that your rate of improvemnent may outstrip the kit you start off on. This sounds like one hell of a learning curve here...great fun and top marks for taking it on but the answers ain't easy...

I can see you on DH boots and B2's for the whole trip and then starting all over again.. Best of luck...!!

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Harbord,

Try a few skis many people love the B2 but quite a few don't get on with it. Try the Dynastar Legend 8000, Stockli Strormrider XL and the other usual suspects. Forgot to say earlier that the Freerides should be up to the job for everything you plan to do.

Also check shipping costs on your equipment, it can be very expensive from OZ to here.

A snowHead

Don't forget to check out the Volkl Unlimited series. The AC3 or AC4. They have recieved some rave reviews at epicski.com forums. You may find the AC4 a tad expensive but compared with a b2 bandit or apache recon.

A snowHead

JT, good point re hiring in 1st 3 weeks, especially when on piste. But would you contemplate l'Haute Route on DH boots?

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Harbord, I changed from an alpine to touring setup last year and now use that for all my on-snow skiing (except if I know I'm going to be solely on-piste or trying something that could be confused with racing Wink

).

My only concern with all this is your self description as a "low-intermediate". You've got a great programme lined up there but it'll also be a great challenge. I just trust you're talking with that self-deprecating false modesty for which all Aussies are renowned Very Happy

.

Bindings - certainly go with touring from day one. Maybe they are a bit weaker than alpine, but as parlor says you're not going to be hitting them that hard. They will hold you a bit higher off the ski, so you'll be a bit less stable and need finer control when cranking them over, but if you're going to Gressoney and doing the Haute Route then this shouldn't be a problem for you. (Conversely, if it is, you'll be needing to change your plans Wink

). The extra height actually has the same effect as the carving plate they put on slalom skis, and the way the heel secures allows a smidgeon of movement between the binding and the ski as it flexes under it, so they actually enhance the bindings' on-piste performance vs a normal binding Wink

. Don't really know any further details of Explore/Freeride differences. I have the Freeride, which I believe is stronger (to go with the higher max DIN), but then I'm then a tad taller and two tads heavier than you. Take local advice, e.g. from your first instructors/coaches.

Skis - you should add the Dynastar Legend 8000 to your short-list. I use these, as did the guide who took me on the Haute Route last year, as do a large number of the instructors in Val d'Isere. I'm not sure about this year's B2's (the B3s are probably more appropriate, someone mentioned on this forum a comment from a Rossi rep that this is now taking the role of last year's B2, and the B2 is more an on-piste "punter" ski). Three of the group I was skiing with last week started on last year's B2s and by midweek all three had switched to the 8000, and considered it a major improvement. It has much better edge hold for on-piste, but is still soft and wide enough to do a good job off piste. You'll certainly find better dedicated on- and off-piste skis but this is a damned good compromise. The guy on this year's B3 also loved his though, but I think that may be a bit heavier than the 8000. I've not come across them yet myself, but I understand the Scott Aztec Pro is also an excellent all-mountain ski.

Boots - I have the Scarpa Denali TTs which are fairly stiff for a touring boot. (Are the Tornados this year's replacement for this - I've not heard of them before?). This is marketed as their all-purpose boot. I actually find I ski better in these than in my downhill boots, but I also tend not to ski quite as hard in them. The Matrix/Lasers are a bit narrower and softer, and less good on piste, but may be what you need for your foot shape. I was in Profeet (top London bootfitters) yesterday having them adjusted and, as I have very wide feet, they suggested I should look at the Garmont Adrenaline when I come to replace them, as the Adrenaline is the widest fitting touring boot out there. If you have narrowish feet the Adrenalines may well not be right for you. Do make sure you don't get anything too big, as the worst blisters I have ever seen were picked up on the first day of the Haute Route by one of our party who was built like a rake - basically the whoe fronts of his shins got rubbed off as the boots were too loose.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

DM,

No, lost my track of thought and forgot about the Haute route and beyond my experience anyway. I guess the point I was getting at
was that the poster has such a huge array of choice not only in skis but which emphasis and which way he wants to attack it.

I think it will be difficult enough to get the boots right to cover all those bases let alone skis ..!!! I'd hire DH boots for the 1st 3 weeks and want to be demo'ing AT boots in Gressoney.... but I'm not sure that Gressoney has a huge choice.... I can't recall too much... Maybe if the poster could get to Chamonix and see SZK and get to demo them there that could/should cover the boot angle.... As for skis...this poster could start with B2's which they can find in Gressoney...... and then.... ????

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JT, Oh I totally agree with you, definitely hire DH kit for Whistler - although a full complement of Aussie self-deprecation could mean Harbord gets some off piste in there too. No need to walk to much IIRC.

Does Gressoney have ANY shops? I think Whistler would be a better bet for touring boots and possibly cheaper. B2s or B3s seem like a good first step too though.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

David Murdoch, Whistler does have quite a good shop for touring kit. However, Fritschi bindings are really expensive in North America right now because of the weakness of the dollar when they were being imported.

Gressoney does have some shops - David Sport has quite a good selection, although someone I know had a lengthly dispute with them over his credit card being incorrectly charged. Sounds like Harbord is going to be in the Alps long enough to make his way to the kit shop paradise that is Chamonix Very Happy

- might be the best plan for him

After all it is free

Arno,

I have always used David's but he does have this funny thing about wanting to KEEP your CC for the duration of the ski hire..!!!!

Thanks for the advice so far. To sum up I have:

Binding:
Fritschi Diamir Freeride - DIN 12 - 1.99kg
Fritschi Diamir Explore - DIN 10 - 1.68kg

Ski:
K2 Apache Recon - 119/78/105 - Radius: 16m – Size: 167 - 3.6kg
Rossignol B2 - 116/78/105 - Radius: 16.6m - Size: 166 - 3.6kg
Dynastar Legend 8000 - 116/78/105 - Radius: 18m – Size: 165 - 3.28 kg

Boot:
Scarpa Tornado with Plusfit High TT Thermo inner - 3.5kg
Garmont Adrenalin G-fit 2 Thermo Liner 05/06 - 3.77kg

To provide a more information, I currently own a pair of Salomon Performa 7.0 ski boots. These probably need to re blown when in Whistler.

I will be able to use these Salomon Performa 7.0 ski boots whilst I demo the various skis. However it would be a waste of rental money to demo/rent for the whole 3 weeks in Whistler as I could buy a ski for the cost of the demo/rental. So I will probably be able to purchase my ski/bindings within the first week or so.

I will be in Chamonix for two days but I am not planning any skiing – Mainly shopping & drinking coffee. After Chamonix I have 2 weeks off-piste in Gressoney followed by my first ski tour in Portes de Soleil. All transfers between areas will be by public transport. So it will be difficult to get any boot adjusted as & when required in Chamonix during this time.

So I really need to purchase some boots in Whistler. I am still unsure what boots should be on the list. Garmont’s are wide so that leaves me on with Scarpa Tornado. Are there any other suitable boots that are suitable for piste / off-piste / ski touring? I want plenty of skiing to 'break-in' my new boots and I don’t really want to lug two sets of boots around.

Finally I am not sure what I am getting into with this ski trip as it will be 37 C in Sydney tomorrow. Do you think I will feel the cold in Europe? Smile

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Harbord,

Yes you will feel the cold if you have been basking in 37 C...!! Expect zero at resort level at least and more up top...!!
But if you are properly dressed for skiing it shouldn't really be an issue in Europe. Can't say about Whistler

If you are in Chamonix for two days you must have a look around..... even if it is just a trip up the Midi and sightsee although once you are up there you will want to ski down. You can get a guided tour and the classic run is a spectacular path among the seracs and crevasses.... no problems skiing or shouldn't be from what you are planning to do - but it is high alpine country so all the due care needs to be headed there, hence the guide.

Can't help on the boots front but to say that Chamonix will have a heap of kit.....

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

Harbord,

Sounds like a great trip.... Smile

Harbord, Run by the Zoo when you get to Chamonix, we're opposite the Aguille du Midi in Cham' sud. We have a massive touring range of ski's and accsessories and boots. Shouldn't take long to do you foot anaylisis and point you, at least in the right direction Twisted Evil

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

CSIA level IV is very high, NOT low intermediate skier Confused

I'd take your Salomon Performa 7.0 boots, use them for the first week or two then throw them away and buy or hire in resort. Likewise skis hire in resort. SeeSMALLZOOKEEPER, in Cham and get the rest of your kit there, because the ideas you have at the start of you trip will be modified by increased experience, and it would be a shame to spoil it all by restricting yourself to kit you bought away from the snow. Just my thoughts. Sounds like great fun. Very Happy

A snowHead

A snowHead

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The Escape Route in Whistler have the Garmont Adrenalines in stock, I've been skiing then for most of last season and about 30 days so far this year, they work well as a piste boot and also as a touring boot. They have some for rent as well as skis with Fritschi Diamir bindings & skins too. (They hire everything as well as selling them.)

As you probably know, the boots come with 2 soles, which are screwed onto the bottom of the boot. A pair of 'vibram' like ones for touring and a pair of din standard ones for ordinary bindings. I was suspicious that this would not work, but despite swapping them several dozen times last year, I had no problems. (I did however buy a new pair this year and now leave the old pair set up a tour boots and the new pair set up as piste boots)

My advice if you buy them is to get them 'small' and then take them to Snowcovers to have them stretched and fitted to your foot, while I love the folks at the Escape Route they are not in the business serious boot fitting and Snowcovers (just a few doors down the same street) definitely are! If Snowcovers feel you have chosen a shell that is too small just pop back down to the ER and swap then for a larger shell. (Assuming that you haven't skied them of course!)

I haven't seen any Fritschis break in the last season, so it looks like they are now fairly bomb proof, so you could ski them as an all round binding, as GrahamN, points out they have the same effect as a riser plate on a slalom binding, so they add some power to the edge on the piste while also adding to the strain on your leg.. The DIN setting and release seems to be OK so if you intend to buy just one set of skis then pop a fritschi on them from the start.

Skis.... Still haven't found that 'one ski does everything'. On piste I love the Salomon 10-3v, off piste almost anything goes. I suspect that the Atomic Metron comes close to my dream ski, but since they won't sell me a pair without the 'matching' binding I'm waiting to get a s/h pair so I can throw the binding away and fit some Fritschis... Then I'll see!

Enjoy Whistler, if you want to 'pm' me through Snowheads and do a day tour outside the ski area while you are here, feel free. I host the Ski Club of GB rep here all winter and usually do a day tour for the rep and members on Thursdays. Since anyone is alowed to have one day with the Club, member or not, you'd be welcome to join in for the day.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I only have a couple of weeks before I travel to Whistler, Canada for the first part of my ski trip. In Canada I intend to use my existing Salomon Performa 7.0 ski boots (after a re-blow at Snowcovers, Whistler) and rent one of the following for the first two weeks to get me started. My focus will not be equipment but learning good technique from my instructors.

K2

During the last week at Whistler I will try to demo a mix bag (depending on what I can get hold off) including the following, hopefully with Fritschi Diamir bindings. I might also try a day ski tour or two:

Dynastar

K2

With the instruction and ski demos at Whistler I should be able to make a relatively informed choice about equipment before heading to Europe. Mid February I will head to France, Italy and Switzerland for 5 weeks of off-piste & ski touring. However rather than purchase equipment in Canada, I want to obtain advice from Europeans who obviously would have better understanding of the conditions encountered in ski tours in the Berner Oberland and the Chamonix to Zermatt haute route.

First up will be a visit to Footworks in Chamonix to purchase dedicated Alpine Touring boots that will work with my existing orthotics. No doubt I can also have a discussion with them regarding ski and binding selection.

I have been checking out the ski touring videos at TV Mountain.com to keep me motivated to achieve my goals. These guys make skinning look easy, but there are one or two videos with people who I suspect are new to skinning – they don’t make it look easy!

http://www.tvmountain.com/skirando/index.htm

Many thanks for all your suggestions and advice.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Harbord, For you CSIA course you WILL need downhill boots. Don't risk failing the course by not having them. To to the Haute Route you will need touring boots.

Sounds a great trip btw... have fun !

ski,
I am not attending a Ski instructors course, so have nothing to fail! I am attending a ski improvement course in Whistler run by Yes Improvement. Yes Improvement utilise CSIA IV Instructors. Yes Improvement also run Ski Instructors courses (up to CSIA Level II I Think), but that is not what I am doing. Yes’s own CSIA IV instructors have a very good reputation here in Oz for getting good improvement in the skiing skills of their course attendees.

davidof,
The last bit of real skiing that I had was at Big White, Canada a couple of years ago. I attended the standard ski school lessons but did not get much out of them. Situation normal. However on the last day at Big White, I shared a lesson with another person. Our instructor was apparently one of their top notch ones; an ex-ski racer. In a space of one hour with her, I achieved a massive improvement in my skiing. The next hour, she was sending me down mogul fields to start developing timing & rhythm. That was fun but I was crap at it. I only wish that I had this quality of instruction from the beginning. Hopefully Yes Improvement at Whistler will give me 3 weeks of quality instruction right from the start!

Whilst I think of myself as a low intermediate with lots to learn, I have very good balance and body position awareness through 15 years of wave sailing, wave jumping and general tricks in good & crap wind conditions. Whilst I don’t consider myself that fit, I have a very good base level fitness. I often do 10 hour hiking days in New Zealand and have done similar days hiking in the Swiss alps with big assents & descents. Big skinning ascents don’t worry me as I will be well acclimatised by then; a bit of pain & suffering is fun. Smile

My approach has a logical progression of learning good ski technique, followed by learning Off-Piste Ski Technique and Ski Touring technique. The Guides have told me that I am on a steep learning curve - but I am up for it!

My intent here is to learn about ski equipment – I want to try and select the correct equipment for my skill level, but not be held back by my equipment selection. Hence I am going to hold off on equipment selection until I see how I go in Whistler.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Harbord, ooops sorry. Sad

Still think you'll be better off with dh boots for the piste part tho' snowHead

Help!!

Boot & Ski Selection for Piste / Off -piste / Ski Touring Trip

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