 Poster: A snowHead
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Just got back from a week in Val d'isere / Tignes and was forwarded this video by a friend. https://vimeo.com/120889019
We were due to ski Mickey's Ear the day before but the guides decided against it due to the new snow and general instability of the snow pack.
Glad that we didn't.!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The Ragnaroks broke the mountain 
That chap has a loooong hike out of there without skis.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well sh*t, that didn't look fun. Good of example of the washing machine like effect of avalanches.
Any views on whether the guy would've stood a chance of avoiding getting caught if he'd gone hard skiers left when the first cracks broke at 0:24? It looked like he carried on turning in to the centre of the couloir and then got swept away. Not saying presence of mind to do that is straightforward (maybe not even possible), but if he'd done that could he have avoided it?
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@ChrisWo, that was my thought, but I guess as soon as you start to move with the snow there is little gravity to move your skis. Luckily lad.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bloody hell
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ChrisWo, if he was aware it was any avy by that first crack, then yes, a hard stop to the left might have meant not sliding with the avalanche. I reckon he didn't realise it was any avy until it was too late. First crack appears at 00:22. At 00:26, he's still going "woohoo", so perhaps he thought it was only slough at that stage? By 00:29, when he's finished the turn, he's already caught.
Very, lucky chap indeed!
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| Bod wrote: |
| ..We were due to ski Mickey's Ear the day before but the guides decided against it due to the new snow and general instability of the snow pack. |
Sounds like you had a good guide.
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Just back from Ste Foy , the guide I use who is very well respected throughout the area , is not skiing anything above 35% , says its suicide . good advice I think .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I did wonder about going hard left as well. But if this was Saturday 28th it just goes to show that Avalanche Risk 2 can still mean that locally it can be very dangerous - probably a good advert for an airbag.
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If he hadn't dropped in and attacked the slope and instead put a few cautious first turns it he might have either not set it off, or released it but in a 'safer' way.
it shows to me free-rider arrogance to drop in so hard on a steep couloir like that, this season and a lack of respect for the mountain and a lack of knowledge of conditions. i hope i'm wrong about his knowledge, but many free riders don't have all that much, they just want big fast turns! i don't have the greatest knowledge. when i skied a steep couloir 2 weeks ago that I knew had probably only be skied 5 times this season we discussed our plan of action in detail before we went, i dropped in very cautiously and enjoyed the whole ski, even if it was slow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
Well sh*t, that didn't look fun. Good of example of the washing machine like effect of avalanches.
Any views on whether the guy would've stood a chance of avoiding getting caught if he'd gone hard skiers left when the first cracks broke at 0:24? It looked like he carried on turning in to the centre of the couloir and then got swept away. Not saying presence of mind to do that is straightforward (maybe not even possible), but if he'd done that could he have avoided it? |
I don't think so. I don't think he realised it was any more than sluff from the previous turn until he'd already made the right hand turn, but there's quite a bit of snow pouring off the rock band to his left at that point too.
Probably if he'd pointed it as soon as it broke he'd have had enough speed to stay ahead of it and cut out to the side when it opens up further down, but unless you've skied the line before and know the it well it would take quite a lot of balls to point...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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impressive go-pro mount.
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| Quote: |
If he hadn't dropped in and attacked the slope and instead put a few cautious first turns it he might have either not set it off, or released it but in a 'safer' way.
it shows to me free-rider arrogance to drop in so hard on a steep couloir like that, this season and a lack of respect for the mountain and a lack of knowledge of conditions. i hope i'm wrong about his knowledge, but many free riders don't have all that much, they just want big fast turns! i don't have the greatest knowledge. when i skied a steep couloir 2 weeks ago that I knew had probably only be skied 5 times this season we discussed our plan of action in detail before we went, i dropped in very cautiously and enjoyed the whole ski, even if it was slow.
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But you still had no idea of it would slide or not, fast turns slow turns you cant predict the future so stop being so righteous and be happy it didn't,
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
| We were due to ski Mickey's Ear the day before but the guides decided against it due to the new snow and general instability of the snow pack. |
| Quote: |
| it just goes to show that Avalanche Risk 2 can still mean that locally it can be very dangerous - probably a good advert for an airbag. |
Airbag or not, statistically, it's risk 2/3 days that account for most incidents.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| geeo wrote: |
| so stop being so righteous |
righteous about 'safe' skiing practises? sorry!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| moffatross wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We were due to ski Mickey's Ear the day before but the guides decided against it due to the new snow and general instability of the snow pack. |
| Quote: |
| it just goes to show that Avalanche Risk 2 can still mean that locally it can be very dangerous - probably a good advert for an airbag. |
Airbag or not, statistically, it's risk 2/3 days that account for most incidents. |
Ski de Randonnée (stats ANENA)
45% par risque 3
29% par risque 4
16% par risque 2
Ski hors-piste :
46% par risque 3
43% par risque 4
7% par risque 2
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
righteous about 'safe' skiing practises? sorry!
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what's safe about it? just because you think he dropped in too hard and your bambi like efforts would have seen you down 'safe' that means nothing, lol and you have the nuts to call him arrogant
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks, davidof. The given wisdom on each of the safety courses I've attended is that there are more avalanche incidents on risk 2/3 days than on risk 4/5 days. I think that you're confirming my statement ?
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Jeez, if there's one thing that does need a Bambi like effort it's what to post judging by some people's responses
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| Thanks, davidof. The given wisdom on each of the safety courses I've attended is that there are more avalanche incidents on risk 2/3 days than on risk 4/5 days. I think that you're confirming my statement ? |
What you say is true.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Sounds like you had a good guide.
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We did. caution was the word for the whole week. We generally kept under 30 degrees and only skied areas that had been previously skied a lot. The guide dug a pit and showed us that the persistent weak layer is still there. If they had any doubt about a slope the default option was not to ski it. Must say that I really appreciated the effort that was made to educate us and understand the risk analysis being performed before we went into any where new.
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| pam w wrote: |
| impressive go-pro mount. |
+1 my thoughts indeed.
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It's some time since I skied Mickey's Ears but I do remember after climbing up to it then you had no option but to drop into it from the entry point.
I suspect therefore that the skier was not being overly aggressive, but simply doing what was necessary to get into the route.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The chap who runs the Chamonix Avalanche Academy made an intersting comment. Said that if the skier had just made one turn and waited, rather than committing 100%, he would have been able to let it slough out ahead of him.
As an aside, since when have we adopted the American spelling of slough (sluff)?
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I only follow guides, but a guide would put a big ski cut (an edge check) eight at the top.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The best lessons are the ones you get away with, glad he's alright
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| philwig wrote: |
| I only follow guides, but a guide would put a big ski cut (an edge check) eight at the top. |
Although, in this instance, a whole lot of turns by the first person down didn't trigger anything. So, the lesson here is that each person should put in a big ski cut and then wait for a bit before proceeding?
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| Zero_G wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
| I only follow guides, but a guide would put a big ski cut (an edge check) eight at the top. |
Although, in this instance, a whole lot of turns by the first person down didn't trigger anything. So, the lesson here is that each person should put in a big ski cut and then wait for a bit before proceeding? |
I think it was his first big turn (to the left) that he uses to bleed off the speed that punched down to the weak layer and triggered the slab. There is something to be said for skiing a couloir at speed down the center line. There is evidence of wind on the left hand side and to the right. These couloirs that start in a funnel often have slabs in them as the configuration leads to snow accumulation, they then channel all that snow into a twisting gulley.
You would have to read the bulletin in detail to see whether there was anything to raise alarms that day, my recollection was of the risk of small slabs on ridge lines and summits but as Werner Munther says "a small slab is tons and tons of snow". There was about 30km/h winds from the N on the 27th but no fresh snow. There seems to be a bit of snow build up at the lip but no real cornice.
I wouldn't rely too much on guides slope cutting, look at the Foglietta avalanche this year. A slope cut might take out the slab, it might take the skier with it, it might not but it might weaken the anchors enough that the 3 or 5th person triggers the slab. I'm not sure the funnel configuration is conducive to slope cutting as there is too much risk of the slope taking you with it.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 5-03-15 14:10; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, reading your post makes me realise just how little I know and understand and just how much I still have to learn.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Zero_G wrote: |
| davidof, reading your post makes me realise just how little I know and understand and just how much I still have to learn. |
Remember that amongst the 30 avalanche deaths in France this season practically everyone of them was experienced or a pro, or skiing with a pro. In one guided group the guide didn't even check the avalanche beacons himself, result, one skier without a beacon killed after spending 90 minutes under the snow. A lot of ski tourers killed, you know, the old fogeys who say all the problems are down to young freeriders like in the video.
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Poster: A snowHead
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davidof, I get that but I do still have a lot to learn. No biggie, I've got time and the will.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof is there any resource where you can go and review an analysis of avalanches and what, if anything, 'went wrong'?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@8611, the Austrians publish a big magazine/book every year detailing every single avalanche incident (involving people) in Austria. They give it out fere at trade shows like the Alpinmesse in Innsbruck, but you could try emailing the UK branch of the Austrian Alpine Club to try and get hold of a copy. It's in German though.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I have reasonable german but have tried in the past unsuccessfully to read avalanche reports in newspapers so no joy I'm afraid, thanks for suggestion though
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
davidof, reading your post makes me realise just how little I know and understand and just how much I still have to learn.
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Agreed. Particularly scary as I know I don't have the balls to hit the centre line and would be scrubbing speed or all I was worth in big sharp turns in that kind of situation.
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This is how to get into the avalanche:
1. never check for windblown slab snow
2. never cut the slope
3. place your mates so that they cannot see what happening with you
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@ed48, perhaps you would care to read the post by davidofabove, wherein he states that
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| amongst the 30 avalanche deaths in France this season practically everyone of them was experienced or a pro, or skiing with a pro |
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| 8611 wrote: |
| davidof is there any resource where you can go and review an analysis of avalanches and what, if anything, 'went wrong'? |
Snowy Torrents book for the US but I don't know if there is a recent version and Chance in a Million for Scotland, again a bit dated I think.
For france the ANENA publishes a few accounts online in French
http://www.anena.org/5108-.htm
they have hundreds in their stock though but don't seem to make them generally available.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not that I would ever consider trying a route like this, the fact that most deaths occur on 2/3 rather than 4/5 days doesn't say anything about the relative risks between the different categories. This is a "denominator fallacy" (I think- it's 30 years since I did stats at college so I'm open to being shot don!)
Basically we would need to adjust for variables such as the relative frequency of each category and relative number of skiers willing to ski on each day.
It may not therefore be surprising that such a high proportion of fatalities occur on "lower" risk days, or that most fatalities are in experienced/guide led groups (as they are most likely to be on the riskier routes).
This doesn't though exclude the explanation that like earthquakes avalanches events aren't open to any sensible prediction regardless of the skill and experience of the skier.
Sorry had to lob that in 
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